533 réponses à ce sujet

[Dhiro]

AutumnWitch wrote...

"Just because it is not important to you doesn't mean it isn't important to others.
Generally, people of racial, ethnic, and sexual minorities tend to like to see positive portrayal of characters that are like them in media."

But isn't part of being in a "colour blind" society not really minding whomever is present?

I understand have a person of colour is a good thing and I agree it's about time but how to you bring her/him to "the screen" without being overtly racist? I guess what I mean is, ok now we have a woman of colour and if she "acts like" woman of colour people will scream racism and if they do nothing to acknowledge that she is a woman of colour people will scream she is being "white washed". I just worry this will be another thing people will end up going mad over because of factions on both sides.

I hold my breath and hope for the best.

You assume that the goal is to be color blind - it is not. The goal is to recognize that some people are different, and that that's okay and we as a society are better for it.

The answer to your question is: make her a person, not a walking racial stereotype.

[mupp3tz]

Dhiro wrote...
You assume that the goal is to be color blind - it is not. The goal is to recognize that some people are different, and that that's okay and we as a society are better for it.

The answer to your question is: make her a person, not a walking racial stereotype.

Exactly. Color blind does not mean race does not exist.

[Han Shot First]

Angrywolves wrote...

If she is Rivani then they'll have to change poor Isabela yet again if she makes an appearance in DAI or a subsequent game.
I like her looks. I like that walk she has.
rotfl.
Think I'll watch those Pax videos again tomorrow.

According the lore the Rivaini actually are said to have skin tones that range from 'dark tan to ebony.' So assuming for a moment that Vivienne is partially (or full) Rivaini, it doesn't retcon the appearance of the Rivaini. Duncan and Isabela just happened to be in the tan range.

I don't think the lore ever delved in depth on the ethnogenesis of the Rivaini, but my guess is that they would be the result of an ancient merger between two or more unrelated tribal groups that gradually mixed over the centuries. That would at least explain the range in appearance from characters that look like dark complected Caucasians to characters that look African.

[bandcandy]

AutumnWitch wrote...

"Just because it is not important to you doesn't mean it isn't important to others.
Generally, people of racial, ethnic, and sexual minorities tend to like to see positive portrayal of characters that are like them in media."

But isn't part of being in a "colour blind" society not really minding whomever is present?

I understand have a person of colour is a good thing and I agree it's about time but how to you bring her/him to "the screen" without being overtly racist? I guess what I mean is, ok now we have a woman of colour and if she "acts like" woman of colour people will scream racism and if they do nothing to acknowledge that she is a woman of colour people will scream she is being "white washed". I just worry this will be another thing people will end up going mad over because of factions on both sides.

I hold my breath and hope for the best.

Colour blindness isn't the end goal with things like this, and it's certainly not a positive thing. To be colour blind is to erase the lived and cultural experiences of diverse groups of people. In the context of the real world, of course. 

People who "don't see race" have the luxury of not seeing it, while the rest of us are constantly reminded everytime we turn on the tv, play a video game or read a magazine. Either because POC are relegated to minor characters, tokenism, comic relief, criminals, maids etc or just not present at all. 

As for how to do it without being racist, the thread has already answered that. Vivienne as we've seen her so far is undeniably a black woman, who has likeable traits and will likely have character flaws (like every other character).

Just don't make her whiter as an attempt to make the game more palatable to white audience is all this thread is asking. 

[daveliam]

Han Shot First wrote...

Angrywolves wrote...

If she is Rivani then they'll have to change poor Isabela yet again if she makes an appearance in DAI or a subsequent game.
I like her looks. I like that walk she has.
rotfl.
Think I'll watch those Pax videos again tomorrow.

According the lore the Rivaini actually are said to have skin tones that range from 'dark tan to ebony.' So assuming for a moment that Vivienne is partially (or full) Rivaini, it doesn't retcon the appearance of the Rivaini. Duncan and Isabela just happened to be in the tan range.

I don't think the lore ever delved in depth on the ethnogenesis of the Rivaini, but my guess is that they would be the result of an ancient merger between two or more unrelated tribal groups that gradually mixed over the centuries. That would at least explain the range in appearance from characters that look like dark complected Caucasians to characters that look African.

I think the change in appearance was more about features than color, but I might be wrong.  Isabela and Duncan's features are still fairly European looking.  Vivienne's appear more African.

I do like your explanation about the merged tribes having lead to various features present in the "modern" Rivaini, though.  Sounds about right.

[Alejandrawrr]

Regan Cousland wrote...

I'm happy that Vivienne is black. And not Beyonce black, with a surgically narrowed white nose, either. Vivienne appears to be African black with African features. After two games full of white people, elves and dwarves, it's nice to see some simple, real-world ethnic diversity.

Err, I'm fairly certain Africans have been found to have the greatest genetic diversity, not even mentioning the sizeable portion of African-Americans (like Beyonce) who have been mixed with white in their short time here in North America. Africans and/or people who refer to themselves under the blanket term "black" are not confined to that dark skinned/broader nosed/generally west african idea alot of people seem to stereotype them as. Furthermore, a black (or in-universe representation) does not have to fit said stereotype to be acceptable -- For the most part Storm is embraced as the most popular black superhero(ine), despite the fact that she's always been depicted with blue eyes and naturally bone straight hair.

AutumnWitch wrote...

"Just because it is not important to you doesn't mean it isn't important to others.
Generally, people of racial, ethnic, and sexual minorities tend to like to see positive portrayal of characters that are like them in media."

But isn't part of being in a "colour blind" society not really minding whomever is present? 

I understand have a person of colour is a good thing and I agree it's about time but how to you bring her/him to "the screen" without being overtly racist? I guess what I mean is, ok now we have a woman of colour and if she "acts like" woman of colour people will scream racism and if they do nothing to acknowledge that she is a woman of colour people will scream she is being "white washed". I just worry this will be another thing people will end up going mad over because of factions on both sides. 

I hold my breath and hope for the best.

What is "acting like" a woman of color? I'm not attempting to put words in your mouth or anything, but there are black people all over the world, behaviors that may be common in one group (african americans) may not be common in another (africans, afro-caribbeans, french africans, I think you get the point). Making her phenotypically black implies nothing of how she should behave -- even more so in a fantasy setting, where they have their own unique behaviors and societal norms. Vivienne should behave however an Orlesian woman who happens to be a circle mage and (IIRC) Senior Enchanter would behave *shrug*

As to avoid being overtly racist... It really shouldn't be too much of a challenge. Don't make the first black character in your series a petty criminal, don't make them an afro-having mammy in a maid's uniform (AFAIK Pokemon Black/White pretty much did exactly this <_<), and so on. If the urge to do so is too strong, then that doesn't look too good on the writer's part.

Modifié par Alejandrawrr, 02 septembre 2013 - 03:32 .

[Regan Cousland]

Angrywolves wrote...

If [Vivienne] is Rivani then [BioWare] will have to change poor Isabela yet again if she makes an appearance in DAI or a subsequent game.

I like her looks. I like that walk she has.
rotfl.

Think I'll watch those Pax videos again tomorrow.

I don't see why Isabela's looks would have to be changed if Vivienne is also from Rivain. Why can't black people and Spanish-looking people be of the same nationality? 

France, for example, is full of black people who were born French. In fact America is full of black Americans.

Maybe Vivienne's ancestry lies somewhere else, outside of Thedas; she can still be a natural-born Rivani. 

Modifié par Regan Cousland, 02 septembre 2013 - 03:51 .

[Regan Cousland]

@Alejandrawrr

I wasn't trying to imply that black people with lighter skin are any less "black" than dark-skinned black people. Of course Beyonce is black. She's a beautiful black woman.

I'm just stating my approval that BioWare has included a character who doesn't look white in any way. The devs aren't kowtowing to the predominantly white target audience by making their "black" character look more white.

Modifié par Regan Cousland, 02 septembre 2013 - 03:49 .

[Zetheria Tabris]

I'm glad that Vivienne has African features. I literally squeed when I saw her.

People of color are so rare in games like this (or video games in general). As a young black woman it makes me happy that Bioware included someone with African features. (I know Isabela and Duncan are brown skinned, but they look more like Mediterranean Europeans to me) I would love to work as a writer for a game developing company someday, particularly Bioware, so this just makes me happy.

As for her 'acting black'......all I will say is that she should act like a fair skinned Orlesian would. In Thedas, skin color doesn't matter.


With that said, I really hope no one makes a 'white Vivienne' mod. That would be just as upsetting as the white Isabela mods. It really hurt me that a lot of people didn't see the racism in those mods, intentional or not.

[Sherbet Lemon]

Zetheria Tabris wrote..,

With that said, I really hope no one makes a 'white Vivienne' mod. That would be just as upsetting as the white Isabela mods. It really hurt me that a lot of people didn't see the racism in those mods, intentional or not.

That mod...I can't...

To be honest, I'm sure someone will.  I wish it weren't so and it's incredibly rage inducing, but there it is.  It's exciting for me to see a character looking like Vivienne in Dragon Age and I am really looking forward to hearing more about her, but I know that there will be some comments and some disgusting mods.   Still, visibility is a step in the right direction toward fighting bigotry.

Annd, I love her sassy strut (and outfit<3)

Can't believe we still have over a year to wait. XD 

Modifié par Village Idiot, 02 septembre 2013 - 05:40 .

[Neria Rose]

Zetheria Tabris wrote...

I'm glad that Vivienne has African features. I literally squeed when I saw her.

People of color are so rare in games like this (or video games in general). As a young black woman it makes me happy that Bioware included someone with African features. (I know Isabela and Duncan are brown skinned, but they look more like Mediterranean Europeans to me) I would love to work as a writer for a game developing company someday, particularly Bioware, so this just makes me happy.

As for her 'acting black'......all I will say is that she should act like a fair skinned Orlesian would. In Thedas, skin color doesn't matter.


With that said, I really hope no one makes a 'white Vivienne' mod. That would be just as upsetting as the white Isabela mods. It really hurt me that a lot of people didn't see the racism in those mods, intentional or not.

Ditto. I was ecstatic when I saw she was dark-skinned, though I tried to rein it in since the game isn't finished and I'd rather not be disappointed in the end.

And for those of you questioning importance of color, yes, it does matter. If you didn't grow up hoping a single character who looked remotely like you would make a brief appearance in your entertainment medium of choice (to say nothing of the fact that you knew in advance that the protagonist, his/her object of desire, and the vast majority of the population would look nothing like you) and not be a negative, stereotypical representation with which you could not identify, then kindly go enjoy your privilege in the real world and in most games instead of posting here whining about how different people "couldn't exist" or "need to be explained", etc .

Edit: Tired, corrected spelling.

Modifié par Neria Rose, 02 septembre 2013 - 05:34 .

[Zetheria Tabris]

Neria Rose wrote...

And for those of you questioning importance of color, yes, it does matter. If you didn't grow up hoping a single character who looked remotely like you would make a brief appearance in your entertainment medium of choice (to say nothing of the fact that you knew in advance that the protagonist, his/her object of desire, and the vast majority of the population would look nothing like you) and not be a negative, stereotypical representation with which you could not identify, then kindly go enjoy your privilege in the real world and in most games instead of posting here whining about how different people "couldn't exist" or "need to be explained", etc .

This.

I've never been the type of person who demands to see token minorites in anything I enjoy. I actually don't mind it most of the time, probably because it's what I'm used to. But when I do see a character that's a person of color - particularly a black person, it touches my heart.

Village Idiot wrote...

That mod...I can't...

To be
honest, I'm sure someone will.  I wish it weren't so and it's incredibly
rage inducing, but there it is. 

You're right. But hopefully people will stand against it instead of dismissing it as a "preference" like they did with the Isabela mods. Those mods are beyond preference.

The purpose of a mod is to perfect or correct something you feel the developers did wrong. To make a mod that changes the skin color of a character and deem it "corrected" is hateful, racist, and disgusting.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Not necessarily. I never use them but The purpose of mods can be any number of things. I think some of them are just preferences. Some mods change the appearance of characters entirely into other characters.Some mods make Morrigan and Allistair same sex romance options, but I don't think those are prejeduced against heterosexuality.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 02 septembre 2013 - 06:50 .

[Zetheria Tabris]

If you change the skin color of a character and think they look better that way - that they have somehow been corrected - that is not a preference. I'm sorry, but I really hate when people here say that.

How is that a preference?!? How can you tell me that's not racist? If I see a white character and say, "I'd prefer it if he was black. I'm going to mod his skin color and make him darker." That is racist.

I understand not being attracted to a race. I'm a black girl but I find white boys to be very attractive. But you won't ever see me modding someone's skin color and saying they're better that way.

Changing a character's sexuality is different than changing their skin color. You change their sexuality so that you can romance them without making a new character. That's the purpose of changing someone's sexuality in a mod. It also changes gameplay.

What's the purpose of changing skin color? Changing someone's skin color does nothing. They are still the same person on the inside. It doesn't alter gameplay. But for some reason you find them better because they are paler/darker than what the developers made them to be. That is a preference, yes, but a racist one. I'm sorry, I just don't understand how people can defend those mods and say they're just preference. How can you not see the implications of that?

Modifié par Zetheria Tabris, 02 septembre 2013 - 07:17 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Well, "better" and "corrected" are objective terms. That's not necessarily the sentiment associated with making a mod or downloading it. "Preference" is not an objective term. Someone may just subjectively prefer one type of appearance to another without thinking it's makes them "better."

If someone is finds one skin color or another more attractive then how is that different for preferring a character's appearance to be different in some other way. The Sacred Ashes mod for instance makes Morrigan, Leliana and Sten all look different. And I'm pretty sure it's not the only one that makes a games' love interests look different than their original design. The other thing is, they're just mods. They're don't really have any bearing on the real game. They're like unoffical fanfiction.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 02 septembre 2013 - 07:29 .

[Zetheria Tabris]

The person who made the white Isabela mod went on about how he couldn't stand Isabela's dark skin, and how she looks so much better now that he made her white. He deleted that some time ago, but only because of negative feedback.

Well, "better" and corrected" are objective terms.

Tell me, why do you download mods personally? To improve something in the game you didn't like. Right? Or am I wrong? If you change someone's skin color in a mod, or download said mod, that is implying you think something is wrong with the original skin color of that character, and the mod improves that. How you don't see the racism in that, I will never know.

If someone is finds one skin color or another more attractive then how
is that different for preferring a character's appearance to be
different in some other way.

What's funny is...if you like Isabela so much that you want to romance her or whatever, but don't find her skin color attractive, it was her personality that made you like her. Yet her skin color is so unattractive that you have to change it?

You cannot compare changing someone's skin color to changing their clothes, hair, or facial appearance. You just can't. That's on completely different levels.

The other thing is, they're just mods. They're don't really have any
bearing on the real game. They're like unoffical fanfiction.

You're right, they are just mods. But the fact that someone thought to make that, and put it on the Dragon Age Nexus...and the fact that it's very popular...just makes me sick to my stomach.

Maybe it is mostly innocent. Maybe it is just "preference" as you say. But I just can't it that way. I will never see it that way. Maybe it's because I'm a minority, I don't know. But Isabela is the only person of color in the entire companion party, and it bothers people so much that they made a mod to change that. It's just sickening, I'm sorry.

Modifié par Zetheria Tabris, 02 septembre 2013 - 07:40 .

[JJDXB]

I don't think that skin colour mods are racist. I really don't. The mistake, I think, is to look at it from a purely western point of view. Skin whitening is about as racist as tanning is. Both are somewhat misguided, but neither are morally repugnant.

I honestly have more problems with changing a characters sexuality in game (and I'm gay) to make them romance-able. It's changing who they are on the inside. Skin colour is entirely superficial.

Zetheria Tabris wrote...

What's funny is...if you like
Isabela so much that you want to romance her or whatever, but don't
find her skin color attractive, it was her personality that made you
like her. Yet her skin color is so unattractive that you have to change
it?

You cannot compare changing someone's skin color to changing
their clothes, hair, or facial appearance. You just can't. That's on
completely different levels.

According to who, exactly?  Some people prefer tan, but that's not racist, so why is prefering paler racist?  I wouldn't change the facial features to suit my racial preferences (in my case, making women look more Asian and men more white), but I don't see skin colour that way.

Modifié par JBDXB, 02 septembre 2013 - 07:42 .

[OLDIRTYBARON]

A lot of the Isabela mods sprung up because she looked like a white chick in DA:O. A lot of them read like corrections to make her appearance consistent. If you want to blame someone for that, blame whoever programmed the shoddy-as-**** lighting in Origins.

[Zetheria Tabris]

JBDXB wrote...

I don't think that skin colour mods are racist. I really don't. The mistake, I think, is to look at it from a purely western point of view. Skin whitening is about as racist as tanning is. Both are somewhat misguided, but neither are morally repugnant.

I honestly have more problems with changing a characters sexuality in game (and I'm gay) to make them romance-able. It's changing who they are on the inside. Skin colour is entirely superficial.

I don't think you can compare white washing to tanning, simply because tanning is a choice made by white or lighter skinned people. Characters are white washed either because of people's "preferences" in mods or media.

Skin color/race is as much a part of someone's identity than someone's sexuality is. I am a supporter of the LGBT community, and believe that you are born gay, just as you are born into your race. Skin color is not superficial. Especially to minorities that have been oppressed.

I am a black girl. It's a part of who I am. It's the race I was born as. It's not something to be changed. Hair, clothes, facial appearance, weight/height? Sure, whatever. But skin color? Nope.

Modifié par Zetheria Tabris, 02 septembre 2013 - 07:49 .

[Zetheria Tabris]

OLDIRTYBARON wrote...

A lot of the Isabela mods sprung up because she looked like a white chick in DA:O. A lot of them read like corrections to make her appearance consistent. If you want to blame someone for that, blame whoever programmed the shoddy-as-**** lighting in Origins.

Okay, that makes sense. But I'm telling you, I never saw anyone commenting things like that. It was all stating how she looked so much better as a white person, how she was unattractive with darker skin. The creator of the mod went so far as to say he couldn't stand her dark skin. That goes beyond having a preference to me.

Also, the mod I saw gave Isabela extremely pale skin, blonde hair, and blue eyes. Nothing like how she looked in Origins.

Modifié par Zetheria Tabris, 02 septembre 2013 - 07:50 .

[Hey]

a mod that changes a characters skin color from black to white is definitely racist as ****.

Modifié par Festae9, 02 septembre 2013 - 08:00 .

[Uccio]

With that outfit and walking I can't help but think of ostrich.

Modifié par Ukki, 02 septembre 2013 - 07:52 .

[OLDIRTYBARON]

Zetheria Tabris wrote...

OLDIRTYBARON wrote...

A lot of the Isabela mods sprung up because she looked like a white chick in DA:O. A lot of them read like corrections to make her appearance consistent. If you want to blame someone for that, blame whoever programmed the shoddy-as-**** lighting in Origins.

Okay, that makes sense. But I'm telling you, I never saw anyone commenting things like that. It was all stating how she looked so much better as a white person, how she was unattractive with darker skin. The creator of the mod went so far as to say he couldn't stand her dark skin. That goes beyond having a preference to me.

Also, the mod I saw gave Isabela extremely pale skin, blonde hair, and blue eyes. Nothing like how she looked in Origins.

I saw that mod as well, but the ones I'm referring to kept her same dark hair and dark eyes, just lightened her up a bit. 

As far as the author of the Aryan Mod goes, some people are just pricks. I don't even know what the original argument is even about, I just thought I'd share the major reason Isabela had so many complexion mods.