533 réponses à ce sujet

[Zetheria Tabris]

OLDIRTYBARON wrote...


I saw that mod as well, but the ones I'm referring to kept her same dark hair and dark eyes, just lightened her up a bit.

I haven't seen any that did that, but I think that's okay. I don't think that's racist, because they thought she was originally white and wanted to be consistent. Fine. Whatever. I'm personally cool with that.

I don't even know what the original argument is even about, I just thought I'd share the major reason Isabela had so many complexion mods.

Thank you for telling me that. That actually makes me feel a lot better. <3

If you're curious, I was saying that I hoped that no one makes a 'white Vivienne' mod when the game is released. It would really break my heart. But alas.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Zetheria Tabris wrote...

The person who made the white Isabela mod went on about how he couldn't stand Isabela's dark skin, and how she looks so much better now that he made her white. He deleted that some time ago, but only because of negative feedback.

Well, "better" and corrected" are objective terms.

Tell me, why do you download mods personally? To improve something in the game you didn't like. Right? Or am I wrong? If you change someone's skin color in a mod, or download said mod, that is implying you think something is wrong with the original skin color of that character, and the mod improves that. How you don't see the racism in that, I will never know.

If someone is finds one skin color or another more attractive then how
is that different for preferring a character's appearance to be
different in some other way.

What's funny is...if you like Isabela so much that you want to romance her or whatever, but don't find her skin color attractive, it was her personality that made you like her. Yet her skin color is so unattractive that you have to change it?

You cannot compare changing someone's skin color to changing their clothes, hair, or facial appearance. You just can't. That's on completely different levels.

The other thing is, they're just mods. They're don't really have any
bearing on the real game. They're like unoffical fanfiction.

You're right, they are just mods. But the fact that someone thought to make that, and put it on the Dragon Age Nexus...and the fact that it's very popular...just makes me sick to my stomach.

Maybe it is mostly innocent. Maybe it is just "preference" as you say. But I just can't it that way. I will never see it that way. Maybe it's because I'm a minority, I don't know. But Isabela is the only person of color in the entire companion party, and it bothers people so much that they made a mod to change that. It's just sickening, I'm sorry.

Well I can't speculate on why every single participant ever downloaded or made this or any other mod. Maybe some are racist. But I don't think they are all necessarily racist. Personally the only mod I ever used in Dragon Age was to fix the bug in Awakening with Sigrun's personal quest not triggering. But I was never really that interested in mods in general, so I'm probably not the person to ask. I still don't think that if I were though that whatever was modded was inherently better, some of it could just be what I'd prefer. I also don't think that anyone who uses the mod necessarily hates Isabella's dark skin.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 02 septembre 2013 - 08:24 .

[OLDIRTYBARON]

Zetheria Tabris wrote...

OLDIRTYBARON wrote...


I saw that mod as well, but the ones I'm referring to kept her same dark hair and dark eyes, just lightened her up a bit.

I haven't seen any that did that, but I think that's okay. I don't think that's racist, because they thought she was originally white and wanted to be consistent. Fine. Whatever. I'm personally cool with that.

I don't even know what the original argument is even about, I just thought I'd share the major reason Isabela had so many complexion mods.

Thank you for telling me that. That actually makes me feel a lot better. <3

If you're curious, I was saying that I hoped that no one makes a 'white Vivienne' mod when the game is released. It would really break my heart. But alas.

I don't think you have anything to fear on that front. Not only because I doubt anyone would want to chart such uncomfortable territory, but also because Frostbite 3 is a **** to mod. I tend to err on the side of human decency, however, and I don't think anyone would think whitening Vivienne would be a good idea or even worth the time to do.

[JJDXB]

Zetheria Tabris wrote...

JBDXB wrote...

I don't think that skin colour mods are racist. I really don't. The mistake, I think, is to look at it from a purely western point of view. Skin whitening is about as racist as tanning is. Both are somewhat misguided, but neither are morally repugnant.

I honestly have more problems with changing a characters sexuality in game (and I'm gay) to make them romance-able. It's changing who they are on the inside. Skin colour is entirely superficial.

I don't think you can compare white washing to tanning, simply because tanning is a choice made by white or lighter skinned people. Characters are white washed either because of people's "preferences" in mods or media.

Skin color/race is as much a part of someone's identity than someone's sexuality is. I am a supporter of the LGBT community, and believe that you are born gay, just as you are born into your race. Skin color is not superficial. Especially to minorities that have been oppressed.

I am a black girl. It's a part of who I am. It's the race I was born as. It's not something to be changed. Hair, clothes, facial appearance, weight/height? Sure, whatever. But skin color? Nope.

Character's are white-washed because in some cultures, being whiter is the equivalent to being more tan.  It's a sign of wealth, and thus preferable.

Being black is part of your identity because other people made it your identity.   'Black' as a skin colour gave rise to a separate culture because of years of injustice.  I'm yellow, but my yellowness has zero bearing on my identity because 'yellow' is just a colour.  It shouldn't say anything about what you are inside.  The only reason it does is because people divided and still divide themselves up over really, really silly lines. 

I understand that 'black' is a bit of an exception because of the associated culture, but surely the issue is with trivialising the culture and not the associated skin colour?  That is to say, I'd disagree with making people 'act less black', not 'look less black'.

For the record, I like that Bioware included a black character.  Like, perhaps, is too much of a word because finding out she was black changed absolutely nothing about my perception of her.  My world growing up was very international, and I had friends of all races, genders and whatnot, and I suppose that I find variety interesting (as opposed to "right").  I do find skin colour mods a bit iffy, but I cannot in good faith in the principles of equality say that whitening someone is any worse than making them darker.  The action is completely non-racist.  The intention perhaps is a bit controversial, but I have no proof of their intentions. 

EDIT:   I will say that I don't pretend to understand where you are coming from.  I just can't, because I never grew up with the cloud of injustices hanging over your head.  You have your reasons, and I think it's good that people like you are standing up for what you believe in.  Thank you also for your support of LGBT rights.  Where I grew up, that was lacking a bit, so I appreciate it

Modifié par JBDXB, 02 septembre 2013 - 08:10 .

[Zetheria Tabris]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...


Well I can't speculate on why every single participant ever downloaded or made this or any other mod. Maybe some are racist. But I don't think they are all necessarily racist. Personally the only mod I ever used in Dragon Age was to fix the bug in Awakening with Sigrun's personal quest not triggering.

Well like Dirty Baron said, some of it was done for consistency purposes. I'd never thought of it that way. That actually made me feel a lot better.

Vivienne, however, is dark skinned, unless she's white washed before the game is released. There won't be any excuses if someone makes a white mod for her, besides that "preference" thing everyone keeps telling me about. Which is think is crap.

[bandcandy]

I'm not sure there's a point in rebutting someone who views skin colour as "entirely superficial" because I don't even know where to start with that and I think Zetheria said it well enough.

People can say all the white apologist nonsense they like, but that white Isabella mod only exists for one reason and that's to make her conform to western ideals of beauty.

It's hard to categorize racial preferences and personal attraction as being 'racist' per se. What someone finds attractive is shaped by a plethora of factors but it is undeniably shaped by colonial influences of what constitutes desirability (i.e. European traits) such as blonde hair and light skin. There is no "I like white people" gene, it's a symptom of living in a white supremacist culture.

Lightening Vivienne to make her more palatable for white audiences is honestly horrible and I think a lot of us hope this time around they can keep her as she is.

[Sherbet Lemon]

Ukki wrote...

With that outfit and walking I can't help but think of ostrich.

I love her outfit!  I think it's sassy and just awesome.  Even though we only got a brief smidgen of her, she kind of reminded me a little bit of my fierce, flawless, beautiful queen.  I absolutely ADORE that woman.

While we don't know much about Vivienne, I'm sort of thinking she's gonna be mega fierce.

[OLDIRTYBARON]

greengoron89 wrote...

So... is this thread for discussing a fictional character in a video game, or is it another battleground for civil rights like every other thread in this forum?

I imagine it's a bit of both at the moment.

As far as Vivienne goes, I'm digging her strut. It is, as another poster put it, sassy.

She also reminds me of Storm from X-Men in terms of inflection and tone. She seems to carry herself with the same quiet confidence that is neither confrontational nor condescending.

[Zetheria Tabris]

JBDXB wrote...

Character's are white-washed because in some cultures, being whiter is the equivalent to being more tan.  It's a sign of wealth, and thus preferable.

Does that make it okay?

If my knowledge is correct, that belief was upheld in medieval times. Not in this time period, at least not in America. Where do you live, if you don't mind me asking? But regardless of the time period or location, white washing is not okay.

Being black is part of your identity because other people made it your identity.   'Black' as a skin colour gave rise to a separate culture because of years of injustice.  I'm yellow, but my yellowness has zero bearing on my identity because 'yellow' is just a colour.  It shouldn't say anything about what you are inside.  The only reason it does is because people divided and still divide themselves up over really, really silly lines.

And I agree with you there. But it can't be changed, that's how society has made me. Can't change it. I believe my race is a part of my identity. It's not  HUGE part, but it is indeed a part. Therefore, I don't think it's something to be changed. But personally, I think race is an identity trait of every race. That's just my opinion though.

I understand that 'black' is a bit of an exception because of the associated culture, but surely the issue is with trivialising the culture and not the associated skin colour?  That is to say, I'd disagree with making people 'act less black', not 'look less black'.

I don't really understand what you're saying here. Are you saying the culture and skin color should be seperate, or...? Mind rephrasing here?

I do find skin colour mods a bit iffy, but I cannot in good faith in the principles of equality say that whitening someone is any worse than making them darker.  The action is completely non-racist.  The intention perhaps is a bit controversial, but I have no proof of their intentions.

I never once said that whitening someone is any worse than darkening someone. I only talked about white washing because the topic was Isabela's white mods. If a white character was made dark, I wouldn't approve of that either.

The action is completely non-racist.  The intention perhaps is a bit controversial, but I have no proof of their intentions.

Touche. I agree. I don't believe that all people who make white Isabela mods or download them or racist or have malicious intent. It's been brought to my attention that some made her white because they thought she was white in Origins, and wanted to keep up with consistency. There's nothing wrong with that. And I'm sure there are people who downloaded it that really didn't understand the unfortunate implications of their actions.

EDIT:   I will say that I don't pretend to understand where you are coming from.  I just can't, because I never grew up with the cloud of injustices hanging over your head.  You have your reasons, and I think it's good that people like you are standing up for what you believe in.  Thank you also for your support of LGBT rights.  Where I grew up, that was lacking a bit, so I appreciate it

Thank you. It's a bit frustrating to talk about this, because it's impossible to see it from my point of view unless you've been in my shoes. Just as I don't know what it feels like to be persecuted for being gay (but I do get a lot of negativity for sticking up for you guys! I love the LGBT community). And you're very welcome, dear. <3

[Zetheria Tabris]

greengoron89 wrote...

So... is this thread for discussing a fictional character in a video game, or is it another battleground for civil rights like every other thread in this forum seems to become?

Both. I was stating my concern that someone would make a 'white Vivienne' mod after the game is released. So both. Is there a problem?

[bandcandy]

Back on topic then. I think this roughly translates to "The Iron Lady". I wonder what implications it'll have for her arc. 

Modifié par bandcandy, 02 septembre 2013 - 08:50 .

[Zetheria Tabris]

It's cool, I understand. I don't plan on bringing it up again.

On topic: David Gaider tweeted something to Mike Laidlaw about how she must have threatened us into becoming her fans so early. That sounds like something an "Iron Lady" would do. I'm guessing she's a tough one.

Modifié par Zetheria Tabris, 02 septembre 2013 - 08:50 .

[Sherbet Lemon]

Iron Lady, hmm? Maybe my Zula from Conan joke/comparison wasn't quite as far off as I thought. 

Oooh, I wonder if she had fun intimidating the apprentices and the like. Hehehe.

Modifié par Village Idiot, 02 septembre 2013 - 09:06 .

[ForTheWynne]

I've already fallen for Vivienne fom the Pax video    So excited to have her as a party member.

Modifié par ForTheWynne, 02 septembre 2013 - 09:11 .

[KC_Prototype]

She's the first black companion member in DA Universe.

[Sherbet Lemon]

Filament wrote...

So... she's Margaret Thatcher.

What a buzzkill.

Special follower's powers involve snatching milk from the babes of Ferelden?

This comment is proof I need to go to bed. Bah.

Modifié par Village Idiot, 02 septembre 2013 - 09:19 .

[Serpentigenae]

"Iron Lady"? Well, as long as they don't make her into Thatcher then I'm content!

It's hard to put my finger on it, but there's just something about Vivienne that oozes self-confidence with a healthy dose of playful attitude, and that to me are some very, very sexy traits. Plus if the voice actress is the same one that did Brooks/Hope Lilium in the Citadel DLC then this is a bonus as well.

Oh, and dat hip swagger.

[Will-o'-wisp]

So we have the Iron Lady and Iron Bull in our Party? ^^'

Imo she looked absolutely beautiful in the latest Videos, both her face and her clothes (though we didn't get a very good look at her face).

I'm really curious about her Outfits right now. Will she always cover her head? Will she always have these two fake horns? At first I found them quite ugly, but now I somehow like them - and some Party members (hopefully including qunari Inquisitor) should be able to make some nice jokes about her resemblance to a qunari. ^^

[Han Shot First]

JBDXB wrote...

I don't think that skin colour mods are racist. I really don't. The mistake, I think, is to look at it from a purely western point of view. Skin whitening is about as racist as tanning is. Both are somewhat misguided, but neither are morally repugnant.

That is a good point. In the East, light skin being viewed as more attractive is a case of classism rather than racism. Its origins lie in the fact that historically poor farmers would be tan from working frequently in the sun, while the pampered wealthy, were pale-skinned.

That being said I'm not sure that Dragon Age has a big following in either China or Japan, and the people creating mods to alter characters' skin tones are most likely Westerners. If mods popped up altering Vivienne's skin tone it is more likely that Western racism was a factor than Eastern classism.

[mikeymoonshine]

Han Shot First wrote...

JBDXB wrote...

I don't think that skin colour mods are racist. I really don't. The mistake, I think, is to look at it from a purely western point of view. Skin whitening is about as racist as tanning is. Both are somewhat misguided, but neither are morally repugnant.

That is a good point. In the East, light skin being viewed as more attractive is a case of classism rather than racism. Its origins lie in the fact that historically poor farmers would be tan from working frequently in the sun, while the pampered wealthy, were pale-skinned.

That being said I'm not sure that Dragon Age has a big following in either China or Japan, and the people creating mods to alter characters' skin tones are most likely Westerners. If mods popped up altering Vivienne's skin tone it is more likely that Western racism was a factor than Eastern classism.

If it's not racist then I don't really see the point, What are u so disgusted that a character is black (or in isabela's case a bit mixed race looking) that u have to change it with a mod? 

As for the whole "I just don't find darker skin attractive" I just don't understand it :/, There are so many really attractive black people in fact I think black people are often more attractive than white people but hey I guess I can't call somethig I don't understand at all racist. 

From what I have seen of vivienne she isn't like isabella anyway she has quite an african look about her (cheek bones, chin, ect) I think making her white would look pretty odd and I don't get why anyone would wanna do that. 

[incognegro]

I just hope that she has some hair underneath at of hers. I would be very upset if they keep her in it the whole game because they don't have any good ethnic hair textures/hairstyles.