692 réponses à ce sujet

[MyChemicalBromance]

So I've been getting the urge to write a few threads with the intent of hammering out harder logic regarding the events surrounding the ending. While I'm sure the consensus here is that that's a hopeless endeavor,  I think there are a few things not yet discussed that we can observe with the right tool set. Think like this thread, but hopefully not as dependent on metaphor.

Anyways, to test the waters and set a basis for further discussion, I want to ask the following question:





Given that Cerberus is single-handedly responsible for re-building Shepard and the Normandy, the entities without which this cycle would have almost certainly been harvested, is the organization as a whole vindicated?

Because of how instrumental Shepard is, you could make a very convincing argument that the survivors of the war owe their lives to him/her. But since Shepard owes his/her existence to Cerberus, do the citizens of the galaxy actually owe the debt to Cerberus (this undoubtedly ties into the Creator-Created conflict, but I won't discuss that here)?

On the other hand, could you ever argue that what happened on Akuze, Nodacrux, or Pragia was justified? If they all would have died to the Reapers anyway?



I think the answer clearly changes based on your view of Cerberus to begin with, as well as how you view what ending the cycles accomplished. This of course means that the answer also changes with the ending. Hopefully we won't all have similar answers.

[David7204]

No.

[Armass81]

Shepard was just a tool for the Cerberus in the end. I knew this even during ME2.

[Steelcan]

Akuze was carried out by Alliance scientists (called that by Hackett, while Cerberus was part of the Alliance) Pragia was rogue.

But overall, Cerberus and TIM decided to prosecute their war with the Reapers in a different way than Shepard and they succeeded in finding a way to Control the Reapers. They had achieved their goal , but TIM stuck Reaper tech in his head.

In the end though they don't need vindication. Let their actions speak for themselves. it just depends what you see their actions as.

Modifié par Steelcan, 09 août 2013 - 07:13 .

[o Ventus]

Steelcan wrote...

Akuze was carried out by Alliance scientists (called that by Hackett, while Cerberus was part of the Alliance) Pragia was rogue.

But overall, Cerberus and TIM decided to prosecute their war with the Reapers in a different way than Shepard and they succeeded in finding a way to Control the Reapers. They ahd won, but TIM stuck Reaper tech in his head.

In the end though they don't need vindication. Let their actions speak for themselves. it just depends what you see their actions as.

I see them as luring hapless civilians into what is effectively a death camp. The civvies who aren't turned into husks are shipped off to TIM to be indoctrinated and conscripted. That isn't Machiavellian, that's sadistic. There's also Benning, where they are apparently landing and gunning down civilians left and right, with no rhyme or reason. Also Tuchanka, where they are trying to ignite a war between the turians and krogan, for literally NO reason whatsoever.

I could also rag on the logisitical impossibilities that Cerberus seems to overcome, but that's another story.

[David7204]

Perhaps you should rag on the frequent suggestions on the BSN for bazillions of dreadnoughts. Or bazillions of Klengagon guns. Or bazillions of Thanix cannons. Or any of the other logistical impossibilities frequenctly endorsed.

Modifié par David7204, 09 août 2013 - 07:18 .

[o Ventus]

David7204 wrote...

Perhaps you should rag on the frequent suggestions on the BSN for bazillions of dreadnoughts.

I would, if such a thing actually existed.

[Hey]

they also should thank his folks for fooling around but also the dan reed network which shep was clearly conceived to

Modifié par Festae9, 09 août 2013 - 07:20 .

[Bleachrude]

I actually think it makes sense for cerberus to try and involve itself with the Tuchanka storyline and I actually consider it a weakness they didn't take part in Rannoch.

It makes sense since if the reapers get defeated, there's no absolute guaranteee that humanity would actually have control over the reapers...sure, that's the plan but I wouldn't bet the whole horse on it.

If the krogans get back on their feet and worse become friends with the turian hierarchy, you pretty much can kiss humanity's importance goodbye.

Same can be said for Rannoch. A Rannoch with both geth and quarians working together is going to be an interstellar powerhouse in short order.

Letting those two races get back on their feet seems contray to the hoals of cerberus.

[Steelcan]

o Ventus wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Akuze was carried out by Alliance scientists (called that by Hackett, while Cerberus was part of the Alliance) Pragia was rogue.

But overall, Cerberus and TIM decided to prosecute their war with the Reapers in a different way than Shepard and they succeeded in finding a way to Control the Reapers. They ahd won, but TIM stuck Reaper tech in his head.

In the end though they don't need vindication. Let their actions speak for themselves. it just depends what you see their actions as.

I see them as luring hapless civilians into what is effectively a death camp. The civvies who aren't turned into husks are shipped off to TIM to be indoctrinated and conscripted. That isn't Machiavellian, that's sadistic. There's also Benning, where they are apparently landing and gunning down civilians left and right, with no rhyme or reason. Also Tuchanka, where they are trying to ignite a war between the turians and krogan, for literally NO reason whatsoever.

It would be sadistic if they were just killing them for laughs, that isn't the case.  They are using those lives in research to control the Reapers.

For Benning, not even Hackett believes that it is really Cerberus.

Tuchunka, once again, going about the war in their way. 

Modifié par Steelcan, 09 août 2013 - 07:23 .

[Xplode441]

Other than wanting to control the reapers rather than destroy them, I have no real problems with Cerberus or what they've done. Shepard's no angel either.

[o Ventus]

Steelcan wrote...

It would be sadistic if they were just killing them for laughs, that isn't the case.  They are using those lives in research to control the Reapers.

It doesn't take thousands and thousands and thousands of people dying to pinpoint a control signal.

For Benning, not even hackett believes that it is really Cerberus.

So it wasn't Cerberus, it was just Cerberus. Gotcha.

Hackett only says that attacking random civilians isn't part of their M.O. 

Their M.O. flies out the f***ing window when Tuchanka is taken into account.

Tuchunka, once again, going about the war in their way. 

In what universe is actively trying to dismantle the turian/krogan alliance (read: sabotage your own chances of surviving the war) "going about it in their way"? What in the unholy hell could they stand to gain or accomplish from any of their actions on Tuchanka?

[Steelcan]

1. Please tell me other methods that have succeeded in isolating the Reaper Control signal.

2. Rogue faction, Hackett himself says that he is not inclined to believe that Cerberus is responsible

3. They do not want the Reapers destroyed, a Turian-Krogan Alliance would hurt that goal.

[Xplode441]

o Ventus wrote...
In what universe is actively trying to dismantle the turian/krogan alliance (read: sabotage your own chances of surviving the war) "going about it in their way"? What in the unholy hell could they stand to gain or accomplish from any of their actions on Tuchanka?

I'll pipe in on this. The turian navy and a krogan army could stand in they way of a more human dominant galaxy as they would logically be the main two races to oppose it.  Makes sense that if you think you could render the reapers a non-threat that you would want any actual opposition to take itself out without destroying your own forces against them.

[o Ventus]

Steelcan wrote...

1. Please tell me other methods that have succeeded in isolating the Reaper Control signal.

I never said that other methods were going to work? I wouldn't have even bothered trying to control the Reapers. Then again, I'm not a comic book villain like ME3 TIM. If using civilians gets them their goals, good for them. But it shouldn't take thousands and thousands and thousands. At that point, if you still get no results (or half assed results, in Cerberus' case in only being able to manipulate husks), consider a different tactic.

2. Rogue faction, Hackett himself says that he is not inclined to believe that Cerberus is responsible

Which does what to dissuade my point? What Hackett does or doesn't believe is irrelevant. He isn't an omnipotent, infinite font of knowledge.

3. They do not want the Reapers destroyed, a Turian-Krogan Alliance would hurt that goal.

Which is only found out after the fact. Never mind that they can also use the turian/krogan alliance (and the entirety of Shepard's built-up army) to their own goals. They are literally going about this the worst possible way.

[Steelcan]

StreetMagic wrote...

The whole Control thing is retarded btw. Nothing good comes from touching reaper tech.

Except EDI, and the geth code upgrades, and Thanix technology, and the Reaper IFF, and Relays

[Steelcan]

1. The work wasn't completed, given more time Sanctuary probably would have succeeded.

2. But he does have access to more battlefield intelligence than Shepard does.

3. Killing Reapers is not what they want, preventing an alliance would further that goal.

[Steelcan]

StreetMagic wrote...

EDI just cramps my style. Would have preferred another squadmate instead of this Wall-E crap I get from both EDI and Legion.

Perhaps as a squadmate, but she is undeniably useful in the Normandy.

[Ravensword]

StreetMagic wrote...

EDI just cramps my style. Would have preferred another squadmate instead of this Wall-E crap I get from both EDI and Legion.

I still wonder why they felt the need to give EDI a body.

[Jarl Johnnie Walker]

Ravensword wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

EDI just cramps my style. Would have preferred another squadmate instead of this Wall-E crap I get from both EDI and Legion.

I still wonder why they felt the need to give EDI a body.

[o Ventus]

Steelcan wrote...

Except EDI,

Who we are infinitely lucky she evolved the way she did. She isn't an inherent negative or positive about Reaper tech. Never mind that Reaper tech makes up less than half her software. She's still primarily Cerberus and Alliance tech.

and the geth code upgrades,

I really should not need to point out how this backfired.

and Thanix technology,

The one legitimate point.

and the Reaper IFF,

Which was loaded with a virus that allowed the Collectors to invade the ship and kidnap the crew. Maybe not the best example.

and Relays

I would certainly hope we make good use from the relays, given that that is their direct purpose for existing.