692 réponses à ce sujet

[shingara]

Jukaga wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

And I'm back from my run.

*checks out thread*.

Steelcan said it best:

"Stand in the ashes of a trillion dead souls, and ask them if honor matters. Their silence is your answer."

I think some people just can't wrap their head around what a Big Deal the whole reaper invasion is. Nothing is off the table when it comes to finding a solution to the mass of genocidal megaskyscraper-sized robots that are wiping out all advanced civilization in the galaxy. Morality becomes irrelevant in a survival situation.

 And your big plan is to help them ???

[garrus and ashley squad]

Jukaga wrote...

garrus and ashley squad wrote...

I would agree to some extent but I also don't think those trillions that died would want you sacrificing thier loved ones to win the war, and that is if you would win doing it that way.

If it saves who is left standing at the end, what does it matter? The alternative is extinction, oblivion. If Shepard or whoever has trouble sleeping after Doing What Needs To Be Done, then that is a small price to pay.

That is a big if. Sacrificing innocent civilians for an attempt at winning a war, sure you can say you're justified if you win. If you don't then what? You sacrificed them for no reason. I'm all for doing what needs to be done. I don't think this is the case. I think this just makes things a little bit easier for you, but that doesn't guarantee winning the war.

[o Ventus]

garrus and ashley squad wrote...

That is a big if. Sacrificing innocent civilians for an attempt at winning a war, sure you can say you're justified if you win. If you don't then what? You sacrificed them for no reason. I'm all for doing what needs to be done. I don't think this is the case. I think this just makes things a little bit easier for you, but that doesn't guarantee winning the war.

If you lose, then it's even less relevant, because then EVERYBODY is dead.

[garrus and ashley squad]

StreetMagic wrote...

garrus and ashley squad wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

And I'm back from my run.

*checks out thread*.

Steelcan said it best:

"Stand in the ashes of a trillion dead souls, and ask them if honor matters. Their silence is your answer."

I
would agree to some extent but I also don't think those trillions that
died would want you sacrificing thier loved ones to win the war, and
that is if you would win doing it that way.

I wouldn't agree with it, but instead of arguing, I'd ask people like Steelcan and MassivelyEffective to throw down. This is about only crucial thing I disagree with shingara about. I think it's a waste of time to "convert" people into adopting new morals. Like Samara says, the goal of her code isn't enlightenment/education. But punishment. It's simpler to just bang heads and see who comes out on top. Then you can establish whatever rules you want. It'd be nice to think there are universal morals and some divine power was on my side "helping me win", but I think the universe is indifferent. All you can hope for is that the "more morally minded" people are the strongest. Sometimes that doesn't happen either.

I'm honestly just trying to shed light on some different opinions then the most extreme and most peaceful. I do hear what you are saying though.

[o Ventus]

shingara wrote...

 And your big plan is to help them ???

Help who? The Reapers? How would anything we've proposed be helping the Reapers?

[Jukaga]

shingara wrote...


 And your big plan is to help them ???

I'm not sure what you mean.

[shingara]

garrus and ashley squad wrote...

I'm honestly just trying to shed light on some different opinions then the most extreme and most peaceful. I do hear what you are saying though.

 Dont confuse me for most peaceful i will nail every husk, reaper force and traitor to the wall. I will skin alive harvesters with my teeth and rip the spins out of wraiths and watch the light dim out of there steel black eyes. I just will not sacrifice the very thing i am fighting for to achieve it.

[garrus and ashley squad]

o Ventus wrote...

garrus and ashley squad wrote...

That is a big if. Sacrificing innocent civilians for an attempt at winning a war, sure you can say you're justified if you win. If you don't then what? You sacrificed them for no reason. I'm all for doing what needs to be done. I don't think this is the case. I think this just makes things a little bit easier for you, but that doesn't guarantee winning the war.

If you lose, then it's even less relevant, because then EVERYBODY is dead.

Well then what exactly did you prevent? Why did you waste time killing all the civilians when there was no point. If it is irrelevant than why do it. Who knows, maybe keeping them alive could of been a lot more beneficial then executing all of them.

[Jukaga]

Good quote from Serenity that fits the theme in the thread:

The Operative: I'm sorry. If your quarry goes to ground, leave no ground to go to. You should have taken my offer. Or did you think none of this was your fault?

Capt. Malcolm Reynolds: I don't murder children.

The Operative: I do. If I have to.

Capt. Malcolm Reynolds: Why? Do you even know why they sent you?

The Operative: It's not my place to ask. I believe in something greater than myself. A better world. A world without sin.

Capt. Malcolm Reynolds: So me and mine gotta lay down and die... so you can live in your better world?

The Operative: I'm not going to live there. There's no place for me there... any more than there is for you. Malcolm... I'm a monster.What I do is evil. I have no illusions about it, but it must be done.

[o Ventus]

garrus and ashley squad wrote...

Well then what exactly did you prevent? Why did you waste time killing all the civilians when there was no point. If it is irrelevant than why do it. Who knows, maybe keeping them alive could of been a lot more beneficial then executing all of them.

Doing something and failing is a hell of a lot better than not even bothering to fight because of morals.

In what way is corralling billionns of refugees in the middle of a war "beneficial" for anyone? Their quality of life is in the s**t, and all it serves to do is strain your resources.

You can either do something, win, and be seen as monster (but save trillions of people), or you can not even bother and lose EVERYBODY.

Modifié par o Ventus, 09 août 2013 - 10:03 .

[shingara]

StreetMagic wrote...

shingara wrote...

garrus and ashley squad wrote...

I'm honestly just trying to shed light on some different opinions then the most extreme and most peaceful. I do hear what you are saying though.

 Dont confuse me for most peaceful i will nail every husk, reaper force and traitor to the wall. I will skin alive harvesters with my teeth and rip the spins out of wraiths and watch the light dim out of there steel black eyes. I just will not sacrifice the very thing i am fighting for to achieve it.

Then we're probably more in agreement than I thought. I just think you're wasting time trying to change minds. I won't stop you though. Sometimes people are successful at convincing others. I've always sucked at it.

 Im not trying to change minds, people are built in specific ways, my ways come from my religion, others from family and how they are brought up, others from injustices done to them. some are just born like it. You cannot change the fabric of a person through force.

 A great man once said, an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. And its within that darkness that great evils are commited, to shine light on those evils is the only way to stop those evils taking place.

 So im not here because i feel the need to fight the fact, im here because if there is only one side that side gains credence, for that side to gain credence is an injustice to all.

Modifié par shingara, 09 août 2013 - 10:07 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

StreetMagic wrote...

garrus and ashley squad wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

And I'm back from my run.

*checks out thread*.

Steelcan said it best:

"Stand in the ashes of a trillion dead souls, and ask them if honor matters. Their silence is your answer."

I
would agree to some extent but I also don't think those trillions that
died would want you sacrificing thier loved ones to win the war, and
that is if you would win doing it that way.

I wouldn't agree with it, but instead of arguing, I'd ask people like Steelcan and MassivelyEffective to throw down. This is about only crucial thing I disagree with shingara about. I think it's a waste of time to "convert" people into adopting new morals. Like Samara says, the goal of her code isn't enlightenment/education. But punishment. It's simpler to just bang heads and see who comes out on top. Then you can establish whatever rules you want. It'd be nice to think there are universal morals and some divine power was on my side "helping me win", but I think the universe is indifferent. All you can hope for is that the "more morally minded" people are the strongest. Sometimes that doesn't happen either.

Not in my universe it doesn't.

That said, there is a balance to be met. A perfect world people like me need not exist.

I agree with the quote from Serenity completely, though granted, I would be a part of that world. 

[MassivelyEffective0730]

shingara wrote...

Jukaga wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

And I'm back from my run.

*checks out thread*.

Steelcan said it best:

"Stand in the ashes of a trillion dead souls, and ask them if honor matters. Their silence is your answer."

I think some people just can't wrap their head around what a Big Deal the whole reaper invasion is. Nothing is off the table when it comes to finding a solution to the mass of genocidal megaskyscraper-sized robots that are wiping out all advanced civilization in the galaxy. Morality becomes irrelevant in a survival situation.

 And your big plan is to help them ???

Help who?

[garrus and ashley squad]

o Ventus wrote...

garrus and ashley squad wrote...

Well then what exactly did you prevent? Why did you waste time killing all the civilians when there was no point. If it is irrelevant than why do it. Who knows, maybe keeping them alive could of been a lot more beneficial then executing all of them.

Doin something and failing is a hell of a lot better than not even bothering to fight because of morals.

In what way is corralling billionns of refugees in the middle of a war "beneficial" for anyone? Their quality of life is in the s**t, and all it serves to do is strain your resources.

Well executing them is going to take a lot of time and resource. Some would run or get out and you would have to track them down just to put a bullet in them. Not only that but the backlash would be uge. You think military commanders and everyone is just going to sit and watch you kill their family and loved ones because they can not handle a rifle. A lot of people are forgetting that a lot of people in the military have family memebers who don't fight. You would have 2 wars on your hands. You would have people that rebel and the reapers fighting you. It seems a lot easier to A. Leave them alone or B put them to better use. Killing them is going to take a lot of time and effort. Also let's not forget how the council and other races would react. You would have a lot to deal with.

[o Ventus]

Once again.

I didn't say anything about just executing civilians.

I you're going to try and argue against me, at least keep it on topic.

[garrus and ashley squad]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

garrus and ashley squad wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

And I'm back from my run.

*checks out thread*.

Steelcan said it best:

"Stand in the ashes of a trillion dead souls, and ask them if honor matters. Their silence is your answer."

I
would agree to some extent but I also don't think those trillions that
died would want you sacrificing thier loved ones to win the war, and
that is if you would win doing it that way.

I wouldn't agree with it, but instead of arguing, I'd ask people like Steelcan and MassivelyEffective to throw down. This is about only crucial thing I disagree with shingara about. I think it's a waste of time to "convert" people into adopting new morals. Like Samara says, the goal of her code isn't enlightenment/education. But punishment. It's simpler to just bang heads and see who comes out on top. Then you can establish whatever rules you want. It'd be nice to think there are universal morals and some divine power was on my side "helping me win", but I think the universe is indifferent. All you can hope for is that the "more morally minded" people are the strongest. Sometimes that doesn't happen either.

Not in my universe it doesn't.

That said, there is a balance to be met. A perfect world people like me need not exist.

I agree with the quote from Serenity completely, though granted, I would be a part of that world. 

What's wrong with a perfect world. I wish there was one. I just live in a reality where there isn't would love to go there and visit though.

[shingara]

Jukaga wrote...

shingara wrote...


 And your big plan is to help them ???

I'm not sure what you mean.

 If your plan in a war is to sacrifice the surplus, the ones not needed, the ones that distract. Then in essence you are helping the reapers, Javik tells you a tale of a race who sacrificed there young to appease the reapers, and all it did was make the reapers job easier.

 And for the thing with the serenity quote, mind telling us what happened next cos without context (of which i know the context) it has no meaning.

[shingara]

StreetMagic wrote...

OK, actually, you do sound peaceful. Quoting Gandhi now? :happy:

I personally struggle with a lot of this, but if i was honest, an eye for an eye always seems to work for me. Trying to follow the other way has brought nothing but frustration and resentment. I hate even knowing about these ideals. Sometimes I think I was better off when I got in a lot of fights. Life was better.

 They never called it the highroad cos it was the easiest route

 Edit, ow an ive been in more fights then i wish to remember for doing the right thing.

 cos there is a big difference from turning the cheek to smacking some punk down cos hes bein a vile evil little mofo.

Modifié par shingara, 09 août 2013 - 10:26 .

[garrus and ashley squad]

o Ventus wrote...

Once again.

I didn't say anything about just executing civilians.

I you're going to try and argue against me, at least keep it on topic.

I said that in the post you responded to. How am I not supposed to think that. I was talking to somone else when I posted that. If anything you're going off topic thinking that.

[garrus and ashley squad]

shingara wrote...

garrus and ashley squad wrote...

I'm honestly just trying to shed light on some different opinions then the most extreme and most peaceful. I do hear what you are saying though.

 Dont confuse me for most peaceful i will nail every husk, reaper force and traitor to the wall. I will skin alive harvesters with my teeth and rip the spins out of wraiths and watch the light dim out of there steel black eyes. I just will not sacrifice the very thing i am fighting for to achieve it.

And I respect and understand that. 

[MassivelyEffective0730]

garrus and ashley squad wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

garrus and ashley squad wrote...

Well then what exactly did you prevent? Why did you waste time killing all the civilians when there was no point. If it is irrelevant than why do it. Who knows, maybe keeping them alive could of been a lot more beneficial then executing all of them.

Doin something and failing is a hell of a lot better than not even bothering to fight because of morals.

In what way is corralling billionns of refugees in the middle of a war "beneficial" for anyone? Their quality of life is in the s**t, and all it serves to do is strain your resources.

 A. Leave them alone or B put them to better use. Killing them is going to take a lot of time and effort. Also let's not forget how the council and other races would react. You would have a lot to deal with.

A. Unfortunately, it's not that simple. If you leave them alone, the Reapers will eventually attack them. And harvest them, and indoctrinate them, and huskify them as well as just outright killing them. Aside from that being a crueler fate than just ending them ourselves, that also gives the Reapers an advantage; they can be used to create a new Reaper, indoctrinated agents can pose as refugees and wreak havoc on us as well as feed information to the Reapers, and husks will be used against us martially on the battlefield. There are too many negatives that come from simply leaving them be.

B. Again, it's not that easy. As I've stated before:

Economic equilibrium.

I can't utilize most of these people, because I'd already have taken my population that I intend to use for war-time production and as a reserve military force.

This is the excess population. I can't put them to work - it would not be a smart investment of my resources to do so. I can't train them. I can't spare the resources for them. There's nothing I can do for them. Really there isn't.

Which leads back to point A. My only other alternative would be to abandon them from their fate. And I can't do that, because, pragmatism about the Reapers using them aside, that's even more inhumane in my opinion than simply culling them off.

They are an external variable in the equation.

It's Garrus' brutal calculus. It's detente. 

I can't have them. The Reapers can't have them. The only solution is eliminating the variable. Culling them.

That's the position the Reapers have put me in. That's the position that the alliance and the Council have put me in.

There is no happy ending for these people. There's no nice way to put it. 

They're going to die.

So I might as well make them useful in death.

Whether I use them as blind fodder, or bait, or subjects in experiments designed to find an exploitable weakness against the Reapers.

If the alliance and the Council are so angry about that, maybe they should have listened to my warnings and actually done something to prepare for all of this.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 09 août 2013 - 10:26 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 09 août 2013 - 10:24 .