692 réponses à ce sujet

[MassivelyEffective0730]

shingara wrote...

 Wrong on so many levels, when you have to compared one thing to the other you have to compare equal to equal. Even though one is fictional and one is fact, its is more then likly sanctuary is actualy based upon dachau. There they ran experiments on maleria, deep cold, blood diseases, high altitude experiments and several others some of which including twins.

It's only wrong because I'm saying it. It's a case of moving goalposts and genetic fallacies: In your eyes, I'm clearly incapable of doing any right. It's rather anthropocentric to be honest.

As your... argument; Yes. Disregarding how they're not as alike in concept as you think, and regardless of the cost of life, knowledge was gained and science was performed.

I'll highlight the one conceptual difference though:

At Dachau, as well as any other German camp, science was performed in the name of torture and murder.

Whereas, at Sactuary, huskification was performed in the name of finding an exploitable difference in the Reapers.

Let's look at the context of the situation: I think you're straight prejudging one because a lot of death happened. However, is it justifiable? For Dachau, a camp run by the Germans for the purpose reeducating the undesirable population and quietly disposing of them out of hatred and ethnic purity, it wasn't justifiable.

For Sanctuary, whose purpose was to find a means to control the Reapers and defeat them (and at which it was fundamentally successful), it can be seen as justifiable.

 Now under scientific understanding, doing experiments like those for ethical reasons are justified yet when enforced on unwilling subjects, people used as lab rats, people treated as things to use to attain the knowledge people who thought knew better came to the conclusion it was worth it. What are those human lives worth compared to everyone elses.

I say that, depending on the context and circumstances of a situation, anything can be justifiable under certain conditions. 

Was the information worth it? I don't know. It's all theoretical. But I know that ultimately, what Cerberus was ascribing to was indeed possible. Was it for the right reasons? Was the end even justifiable in itself? I really can't say that, since circumstances occurred differently. But I can say that had Cerberus succeeded, and ended up controlling the Reapers, it certainly would have been worth it.

A human life is worth as much as anyone else's, at least philosophically. Then it becomes a matter of addition. The more lives you have, the more value is in it. If you save more lives than you take, I'd call that a net gain. If, in the case of the Reapers, you save any lives at all regardless of the cost, you've paid off.

 You are doing no less. This is why i couldnt discribe the meaning to you, because for you its like expressing a colour to a blind person. You are beyond illumination. It is beyond your understanding.

Meaning. You keep using that word. Exactly what am I supposed to be understanding? Your worldview? I understand it fine. I understand it perfectly. I'd even wager I understand it better than you do.

But I don't agree with it. I don't have to agree with something to understand it. I don't think you quite understand the meaning of my worldview, and I really don't have the patience or energy to try help you understand.

[Sir DeLoria]

Except for the attempted sabotage of the Flotilla, I liked Cerberus in ME2. It's a real shame, they got ruined in ME3. Maybe there are some 'less crazy' cells still around after the war, that could seek redemption.

Poor TIM never got the chance to meet his soulmate Daro'Xen.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

StreetMagic wrote...

Necanor wrote...

Except for the attempted sabotage of the Flotilla, I liked Cerberus in ME2. It's a real shame, they got ruined in ME3. Maybe there are some 'less crazy' cells still around after the war, that could seek redemption.

Poor TIM never got the chance to meet his soulmate Daro'Xen.

That's where I am.

I don't see any point defending ME3 Cerberus. Miranda's last words pretty much end where the new retarded Cerberus begins. "Using this seems like a betrayal."

The unfortunate reality behind ME3 Cerberus. They're indoctrinated. 

Imagine what they could have accomplished if they hadn't been... But what if's...

[Sir DeLoria]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

Necanor wrote...
Except for the attempted sabotage of the Flotilla, I liked Cerberus in ME2. It's a real shame, they got ruined in ME3. Maybe there are some 'less crazy' cells still around after the war, that could seek redemption.

Poor TIM never got the chance to meet his soulmate Daro'Xen.

That's where I am.
I don't see any point defending ME3 Cerberus. Miranda's last words pretty much end where the new retarded Cerberus begins. "Using this seems like a betrayal."

The unfortunate reality behind ME3 Cerberus. They're indoctrinated. 

Imagine what they could have accomplished if they hadn't been... But what if's...

I agree, the massive amount of ressources and manpower, that is Cerberus would have seriously helped the war effort.

[rekn2]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

Necanor wrote...

Except for the attempted sabotage of the Flotilla, I liked Cerberus in ME2. It's a real shame, they got ruined in ME3. Maybe there are some 'less crazy' cells still around after the war, that could seek redemption.

Poor TIM never got the chance to meet his soulmate Daro'Xen.

That's where I am.

I don't see any point defending ME3 Cerberus. Miranda's last words pretty much end where the new retarded Cerberus begins. "Using this seems like a betrayal."

The unfortunate reality behind ME3 Cerberus. They're indoctrinated. 

Imagine what they could have accomplished if they hadn't been... But what if's...

i think bad writing had a lot to do with it too. there were so many cerberus troops that it took me out of what i had thought of them from me2. instead of a secret ogrinization it was an army. i felt the same about TIM's base. way to many troops there. how do they keep tight security with having to feed so many troops?

[Excella Gionne]

Cerberus was indoctrinated along the way within the story. They've been messing around with Reaper tech, and everyone know what happens when you do so. Same goes for the Arrival. So no, they already betrayed the galaxy when they became indoctrinated.

[Bourne Endeavor]

While I might have preferred an alternative to the rather predictable "Cerberus is indoctrinated!" storyline. I am not wholly against it, but do wish there had been more continuation of ME2's Cerberus beforehand. Perhaps TIM became increasingly desperate and resorted to unethical means near absolute because the variables changed. ME3 dabbled with this sporadically prior to devolving into the Sith Empire indoctrination. Kei Lang certainly would have been a more intriguing antagonist were he attempting to prove the merits of Cerberus' growing insanity, in lieu of being a cut-scene wonder.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

PMC65 wrote...

As to military vs civilians ... both serve a purpose. The lines can also get blurred in a war and I would think in a galactic war, civilians would be fighting just as soldiers would. But not just fighting. Civilians are also the reasons that the soldiers are fighting. They do not just fight for God and country ... they fight for home. They fight to keep their families safe. If you take away their civilian families you have just taken away the greatest weapon you have.

That does not mean that you put civilians first. It just means that you try and limit the casualties.

That or you better hire a bunch of secretaries to write fake letters to your soldiers ... pretending that they are mothers, fathers, sisters, brothers, girlfriends, boyfriends, wives, etc. Pretending to be the heart and soul of your soldiers. The reason why they dig in their heels even when they have seen their fellow soldiers die.

Not to say I don't agree with you: I do. I really do. From my own experience in Afghanistan, I know how important and vital this can be. Not necessarily for myself personally, but on the level of my brother's and sister's, whom I now lead, I know this all too well. Believe me, I know.

And that is where perhaps the ultimate evil of the Reapers - and the ultimate genius behind their tactics - comes in:

The Reapers use this against us. The alliance, the Council... their inaction took that away from us. The greatest weapon we once had has now become our worst nightmare, our most bitter enemy.

The very nature of this war means that this philoophy, however noble, might apply no longer. That's the kind of war we fight. This kind of war waged by the Reapers is forcing us to fight this concept as well.

How do we fight that? 

I know how I'm going to fight it. I know it makes me seem inhumane, brutal, terrible, and cruel, but if all life is destroyed because we don't adapt to the change that the Reapers hace forced on us, I feel I would be much worse.

That's the greatest strength of the Reapers. They keep us off balance. They put is situations that we couldn't normally fight in. They test our resolve by taking what we hold dear and using it against us.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

johnnythao89 wrote...

Cerberus was indoctrinated along the way within the story. They've been messing around with Reaper tech, and everyone know what happens when you do so. Same goes for the Arrival. So no, they already betrayed the galaxy when they became indoctrinated.

I wouldn't say they betrayed the galaxy. 

I'd say they were pretty asinine and stupid, and they should have known better - TIM let ambition for what could be get the better of him.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

While I might have preferred an alternative to the rather predictable "Cerberus is indoctrinated!" storyline. I am not wholly against it, but do wish there had been more continuation of ME2's Cerberus beforehand. Perhaps TIM became increasingly desperate and resorted to unethical means near absolute because the variables changed.

This is really how I see a lot of where Cerberus in ME3 came from (although I will say that ambition bred with certain kind of false-impunity led to a lot of problems as well). 

But as I said, that's what happened. The Reapers changed the variables. The old rules don't apply. They can't apply, not if we want to survive.

ME3 dabbled with this sporadically prior to devolving into the Sith Empire indoctrination. Kei Lang certainly would have been a more intriguing antagonist were he attempting to prove the merits of Cerberus' growing insanity, in lieu of being a cut-scene wonder.

I noticed this a few times in the game too, when the game wasn't being so in-your-face-evil about Cerberus. I was actually surprised at how Shepard could respond to TIM, and how TIM reacted many times with his dialogue in ME3: I saw the tiny few vestiges of the ME2 Cerberus that I had come to know and admire in nearly all of them.

[Excella Gionne]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

johnnythao89 wrote...

Cerberus was indoctrinated along the way within the story. They've been messing around with Reaper tech, and everyone know what happens when you do so. Same goes for the Arrival. So no, they already betrayed the galaxy when they became indoctrinated.

I wouldn't say they betrayed the galaxy. 

I'd say they were pretty asinine and stupid, and they should have known better - TIM let ambition for what could be get the better of him.

He had too much ambition that eventually he was consumed by it(being indoctrinated). I think what happened on Horizon was probably the worse thing they could conjure up that contradicts their goal to uplift humanity, and maybe not contradict, but taking it too far. I wondered if the Illusive Man looked in the mirror after his experimentation.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

johnnythao89 wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

johnnythao89 wrote...

Cerberus was indoctrinated along the way within the story. They've been messing around with Reaper tech, and everyone know what happens when you do so. Same goes for the Arrival. So no, they already betrayed the galaxy when they became indoctrinated.

I wouldn't say they betrayed the galaxy. 

I'd say they were pretty asinine and stupid, and they should have known better - TIM let ambition for what could be get the better of him.

He had too much ambition that eventually he was consumed by it(being indoctrinated). I think what happened on Horizon was probably the worse thing they could conjure up that contradicts their goal to uplift humanity, and maybe not contradict, but taking it too far. I wondered if the Illusive Man looked in the mirror after his experimentation.

Against the Reapers, how far is too far? 

That seems to be a recurring theme in the thread.

[Excella Gionne]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

johnnythao89 wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

johnnythao89 wrote...

Cerberus was indoctrinated along the way within the story. They've been messing around with Reaper tech, and everyone know what happens when you do so. Same goes for the Arrival. So no, they already betrayed the galaxy when they became indoctrinated.

I wouldn't say they betrayed the galaxy. 

I'd say they were pretty asinine and stupid, and they should have known better - TIM let ambition for what could be get the better of him.

He had too much ambition that eventually he was consumed by it(being indoctrinated). I think what happened on Horizon was probably the worse thing they could conjure up that contradicts their goal to uplift humanity, and maybe not contradict, but taking it too far. I wondered if the Illusive Man looked in the mirror after his experimentation.

Against the Reapers, how far is too far? 

That seems to be a recurring theme in the thread.

Too far to the point where you're only helping the Reapers. Although the Illusive MAn believed he was in control, he was already controlled. In the end, he lost everything and gained nothing. That signal to control reaper troops on Horizon would only work for so long. Those deaths on Horizon were pointless, because it didn't change anything. The Illusive Man was basically helping the Reapers indirectly.

[Bourne Endeavor]

Garrus actually has a fantastic quote that summarises why the Reapers' tactics are so effective beyond simple wanton destruction.

Garrus Vakarian: It's a brilliant tactic when you think about it.
Ensign Copeland: But it's evil!
Garrus Vakarian: When has that ever mattered in war?
Ensign Copeland: Yeah, but... converting other lifeforms into Reapers? I can't wrap my head around that.
Garrus Vakarian: Makes sense to me. It ensures you never run out of cannon fodder. Eliminates any local resistance. And for every soldier you add, your enemy loses two: the one you converted, and his buddy on the other side who can't pull the trigger on a friend.
Ensign Copeland: You sound like you admire them.
Garrus Vakarian: Same way I admire a virus or a thresher maw. They've adapted perfectly to their situation.
Ensign Copeland: But the Reapers want to destroy us!
Garrus Vakarian: And I have no intention of letting them. But if you don't respect your enemy's capabilities, you're in for one nasty surprise after another.

Somewhat mirrors the morality argument from earlier. In a war of such enormous scale, if you attempt to be the hero. You will often find yourself in a morally devastating scenario. In war, sacrifices are an inevitability. Mass Effect 3 does a surprisingly efficient job depicting this through their bits of ambient background dialogue. Many cannot handle the ambiguous or outwardly bankrupt morality war can force.

Cerberus went undoubtedly too far, yes. However, their goal was good, the methods used were not.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

johnnythao89 wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

johnnythao89 wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

johnnythao89 wrote...

Cerberus was indoctrinated along the way within the story. They've been messing around with Reaper tech, and everyone know what happens when you do so. Same goes for the Arrival. So no, they already betrayed the galaxy when they became indoctrinated.

I wouldn't say they betrayed the galaxy. 

I'd say they were pretty asinine and stupid, and they should have known better - TIM let ambition for what could be get the better of him.

He had too much ambition that eventually he was consumed by it(being indoctrinated). I think what happened on Horizon was probably the worse thing they could conjure up that contradicts their goal to uplift humanity, and maybe not contradict, but taking it too far. I wondered if the Illusive Man looked in the mirror after his experimentation.

Against the Reapers, how far is too far? 

That seems to be a recurring theme in the thread.

Too far to the point where you're only helping the Reapers. Although the Illusive MAn believed he was in control, he was already controlled. In the end, he lost everything and gained nothing. That signal to control reaper troops on Horizon would only work for so long. Those deaths on Horizon were pointless, because it didn't change anything. The Illusive Man was basically helping the Reapers indirectly.

I can understand this perspective. I do think that Sanctuary was a stroke of genius that might have been far better implemented by a Cerberus that wasn't under the thralls of indoctrination. I see where you're saying the deaths were unnecessary, and I understand. TIM was under the Reapers' spell in ME3. Whether I agree with the man of not, he's a threat. Whatever they once were, Cerberus, past the ever-thinning veneer of serving humanity, is a Reaper run organization.

[Bourne Endeavor]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

ME3 dabbled with this sporadically prior to devolving into the Sith Empire indoctrination. Kei Lang certainly would have been a more intriguing antagonist were he attempting to prove the merits of Cerberus' growing insanity, in lieu of being a cut-scene wonder.

I noticed this a few times in the game too, when the game wasn't being so in-your-face-evil about Cerberus. I was actually surprised at how Shepard could respond to TIM, and how TIM reacted many times with his dialogue in ME3: I saw the tiny few vestiges of the ME2 Cerberus that I had come to know and admire in nearly all of them.

Aye, and that irked me to no end. Not only because I found Cerberus intriguing, but am always a fan of ambiguous morality. We already had the Reapers fulfilling the ominous and unquestionably evil role, at least from our perspective. Unfortunately, this abrupt and disjointed narrative structure was common in Mass Effect. Cerberus, the Council, the Alliance, the Reapers; none of them remained consistent, usually with some vague connection where we had to assume the connection.

[PMC65]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Not to say I don't agree with you: I do. I really do. From my own experience in Afghanistan, I know how important and vital this can be. Not necessarily for myself personally, but on the level of my brother's and sister's, whom I now lead, I know this all too well. Believe me, I know.

And that is where perhaps the ultimate evil of the Reapers - and the ultimate genius behind their tactics - comes in:

The Reapers use this against us. The alliance, the Council... their inaction took that away from us. The greatest weapon we once had has now become our worst nightmare, our most bitter enemy.

The very nature of this war means that this philoophy, however noble, might apply no longer. That's the kind of war we fight. This kind of war waged by the Reapers is forcing us to fight this concept as well.

How do we fight that? 

I know how I'm going to fight it. I know it makes me seem inhumane, brutal, terrible, and cruel, but if all life is destroyed because we don't adapt to the change that the Reapers hace forced on us, I feel I would be much worse.

That's the greatest strength of the Reapers. They keep us off balance. They put is situations that we couldn't normally fight in. They test our resolve by taking what we hold dear and using it against us.

The challenge is that while the war may be different, we humans are not. I do agree that civilians would be on their own while the military and first responders would be waist high in husk goo. Just as the government has told us Californians that if an 8.0 quake hits, we will be on our own for at least two weeks as they focus on other priorities.

Now, if I found out that my family, my friends, my city were destroyed by my own leaders ... Hell hath no fury. My oath, my loyalty would be revoked. My hate would go from the reapers to the Alliance and this hate would be much more personal. Here I am risking my life and they would betray me and mine? No amount of explanation would make me accept the loss of my loved ones this way. 

Would I care anymore about the reapers? No. Would i start to sabotage the Alliance? Yes. Would others who also lost loved ones this way, follow? Probably. Now there is another group that the Alliance would have to fight and they created it by their own actions.
 
The military might think or even have good reasons for it, but they should also be ready for the consequences (backlash). They might try to do it on the sly ... somehow blame it on the reapers and pray that the secret is not revealed. After all, the truth would create a house divided and a sure win for the reapers.

A tough war, indeed. 
 

[garrus and ashley squad]

PMC65 wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Not to say I don't agree with you: I do. I really do. From my own experience in Afghanistan, I know how important and vital this can be. Not necessarily for myself personally, but on the level of my brother's and sister's, whom I now lead, I know this all too well. Believe me, I know.

And that is where perhaps the ultimate evil of the Reapers - and the ultimate genius behind their tactics - comes in:

The Reapers use this against us. The alliance, the Council... their inaction took that away from us. The greatest weapon we once had has now become our worst nightmare, our most bitter enemy.

The very nature of this war means that this philoophy, however noble, might apply no longer. That's the kind of war we fight. This kind of war waged by the Reapers is forcing us to fight this concept as well.

How do we fight that? 

I know how I'm going to fight it. I know it makes me seem inhumane, brutal, terrible, and cruel, but if all life is destroyed because we don't adapt to the change that the Reapers hace forced on us, I feel I would be much worse.

That's the greatest strength of the Reapers. They keep us off balance. They put is situations that we couldn't normally fight in. They test our resolve by taking what we hold dear and using it against us.

The challenge is that while the war may be different, we humans are not. I do agree that civilians would be on their own while the military and first responders would be waist high in husk goo. Just as the government has told us Californians that if an 8.0 quake hits, we will be on our own for at least two weeks as they focus on other priorities.

Now, if I found out that my family, my friends, my city were destroyed by my own leaders ... Hell hath no fury. My oath, my loyalty would be revoked. My hate would go from the reapers to the Alliance and this hate would be much more personal. Here I am risking my life and they would betray me and mine? No amount of explanation would make me accept the loss of my loved ones this way. 

Would I care anymore about the reapers? No. Would i start to sabotage the Alliance? Yes. Would others who also lost loved ones this way, follow? Probably. Now there is another group that the Alliance would have to fight and they created it by their own actions.
 
The military might think or even have good reasons for it, but they should also be ready for the consequences (backlash). They might try to do it on the sly ... somehow blame it on the reapers and pray that the secret is not revealed. After all, the truth would create a house divided and a sure win for the reapers.

A tough war, indeed. 
 

I couldn't have said it better. It's been my whole point, it's to risky. You risk a war on 2 fronts. Which is why it's much better to leave them alone, or find another solution. You would have military personel fighting amongst each other, and it wouldn't end well.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

garrus and ashley squad wrote...

PMC65 wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Not to say I don't agree with you: I do. I really do. From my own experience in Afghanistan, I know how important and vital this can be. Not necessarily for myself personally, but on the level of my brother's and sister's, whom I now lead, I know this all too well. Believe me, I know.

And that is where perhaps the ultimate evil of the Reapers - and the ultimate genius behind their tactics - comes in:

The Reapers use this against us. The alliance, the Council... their inaction took that away from us. The greatest weapon we once had has now become our worst nightmare, our most bitter enemy.

The very nature of this war means that this philoophy, however noble, might apply no longer. That's the kind of war we fight. This kind of war waged by the Reapers is forcing us to fight this concept as well.

How do we fight that? 

I know how I'm going to fight it. I know it makes me seem inhumane, brutal, terrible, and cruel, but if all life is destroyed because we don't adapt to the change that the Reapers hace forced on us, I feel I would be much worse.

That's the greatest strength of the Reapers. They keep us off balance. They put is situations that we couldn't normally fight in. They test our resolve by taking what we hold dear and using it against us.

The challenge is that while the war may be different, we humans are not. I do agree that civilians would be on their own while the military and first responders would be waist high in husk goo. Just as the government has told us Californians that if an 8.0 quake hits, we will be on our own for at least two weeks as they focus on other priorities.

Now, if I found out that my family, my friends, my city were destroyed by my own leaders ... Hell hath no fury. My oath, my loyalty would be revoked. My hate would go from the reapers to the Alliance and this hate would be much more personal. Here I am risking my life and they would betray me and mine? No amount of explanation would make me accept the loss of my loved ones this way. 

Would I care anymore about the reapers? No. Would i start to sabotage the Alliance? Yes. Would others who also lost loved ones this way, follow? Probably. Now there is another group that the Alliance would have to fight and they created it by their own actions.
 
The military might think or even have good reasons for it, but they should also be ready for the consequences (backlash). They might try to do it on the sly ... somehow blame it on the reapers and pray that the secret is not revealed. After all, the truth would create a house divided and a sure win for the reapers.

A tough war, indeed. 
 

I couldn't have said it better. It's been my whole point, it's to risky. You risk a war on 2 fronts. Which is why it's much better to leave them alone, or find another solution. You would have military personel fighting amongst each other, and it wouldn't end well.

I suppose I can't count on others to be as... coldly detached as I am. I still see the validity of my own solution, but also acknowledge your situation there.

The problem is this:

We can't win if your family lives. Your family will not live if we do not win. There is no hope for your family. It's a no-win scenario.

Blame the alliance on this. Blame the Council. Blame the Reapers most of all. They planned this. They're counting on this. As much as indoctrination, they're turning us against each other by using our own fears against us.

It's the true evil. And it's ingenious. 

That's why I advocate dispassion in this situation. Free yourself from emotion. From humanity. It's the only way to save humanity, to save the galaxy. 

Granted, my Shepard does differ for me here: while he advocates this, he also feels the protective urge for Miranda. She's his fundamental reason for fighting. When he's facing down the ending with nothing left, she's all he has, and he clings to her. It's what makes him gain the will to once again fight back and finish the Reapers once and for all.

To beat the Reapers, we must become something that is indeed terrible. But if it's the only way, I'm not going to let the galaxy burn because I don't like what I must become. 

The lives that everyone is to be, every survivor, every unborn child, every civilization that is to exist after this war depend on me becoming that.

That is my sacrifice. That is my cost.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 10 août 2013 - 04:12 .

[PMC65]

garrus and ashley squad wrote...

I couldn't have said it better. It's been my whole point, it's to risky. You risk a war on 2 fronts. Which is why it's much better to leave them alone, or find another solution. You would have military personel fighting amongst each other, and it wouldn't end well.

No, it wouldn't.

Besides, I think that the civilians would be just as valuable as soldiers on the ground. From underground resistences dotted throughout the galaxy to the old farmers feeding soldiers as they pass by their farmhouse.
 
Everyone would have to pull their weight or die. I'd last a week ... if I was lucky. But now my grandmother ... with her old iron skillet, she would take out husks on her own and finish the war with more kills than Shepard. 

 

[rekn2]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

garrus and ashley squad wrote...

PMC65 wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Not to say I don't agree with you: I do. I really do. From my own experience in Afghanistan, I know how important and vital this can be. Not necessarily for myself personally, but on the level of my brother's and sister's, whom I now lead, I know this all too well. Believe me, I know.

And that is where perhaps the ultimate evil of the Reapers - and the ultimate genius behind their tactics - comes in:

The Reapers use this against us. The alliance, the Council... their inaction took that away from us. The greatest weapon we once had has now become our worst nightmare, our most bitter enemy.

The very nature of this war means that this philoophy, however noble, might apply no longer. That's the kind of war we fight. This kind of war waged by the Reapers is forcing us to fight this concept as well.

How do we fight that? 

I know how I'm going to fight it. I know it makes me seem inhumane, brutal, terrible, and cruel, but if all life is destroyed because we don't adapt to the change that the Reapers hace forced on us, I feel I would be much worse.

That's the greatest strength of the Reapers. They keep us off balance. They put is situations that we couldn't normally fight in. They test our resolve by taking what we hold dear and using it against us.

The challenge is that while the war may be different, we humans are not. I do agree that civilians would be on their own while the military and first responders would be waist high in husk goo. Just as the government has told us Californians that if an 8.0 quake hits, we will be on our own for at least two weeks as they focus on other priorities.

Now, if I found out that my family, my friends, my city were destroyed by my own leaders ... Hell hath no fury. My oath, my loyalty would be revoked. My hate would go from the reapers to the Alliance and this hate would be much more personal. Here I am risking my life and they would betray me and mine? No amount of explanation would make me accept the loss of my loved ones this way. 

Would I care anymore about the reapers? No. Would i start to sabotage the Alliance? Yes. Would others who also lost loved ones this way, follow? Probably. Now there is another group that the Alliance would have to fight and they created it by their own actions.
 
The military might think or even have good reasons for it, but they should also be ready for the consequences (backlash). They might try to do it on the sly ... somehow blame it on the reapers and pray that the secret is not revealed. After all, the truth would create a house divided and a sure win for the reapers.

A tough war, indeed. 
 

I couldn't have said it better. It's been my whole point, it's to risky. You risk a war on 2 fronts. Which is why it's much better to leave them alone, or find another solution. You would have military personel fighting amongst each other, and it wouldn't end well.

I suppose I can't count on others to be as... coldly detached as I am. I still see the validity of my own solution, but also acknowledge your situation there.

The problem is this:

We can't win if your family lives. Your family will not live if we do not win. There is no hope for your family. It's a no-win scenario.

Blame the alliance on this. Blame the Council. Blame the Reapers most of all. They planned this. They're counting on this. As much as indoctrination, they're turning us against each other by using our own fears against us.

It's the true evil. And it's ingenious. 

That's why I advocate dispassion in this situation. Free yourself from emotion. From humanity. It's the only way to save humanity, to save the galaxy. 

Granted, my Shepard does differ for me here: while he advocates this, he also feels the protective urge for Miranda. She's his fundamental reason for fighting. When he's facing down the ending with nothing left, she's all he has, and he clings to her. It's what makes him gain the will to once again fight back and finish the Reapers once and for all.

To beat the Reapers, we must become something that is indeed terrible. But if it's the only way, I'm not going to let the galaxy burn because I don't like what I must become. 

The lives that everyone is to be, every survivor, every unborn child, every civilization that is to exist after this war depend on me becoming that.

That is my sacrifice. That is my cost.

still spoken from a position of priviledge. maybe thats how things are done in NG but in the navy, no one in my unit would ever allow such a thing to happen. you intentionally murder a civilian and youll be lucky to live another minute.


your idea has about as much chance as seeing the light of day as arguing with the reapers over morals

[rekn2]

and it has nothing to do with cold detachment. your idea would be laughed out of any cic.

[PMC65]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

I suppose I can't count on others to be as... coldly detached as I am. I still see the validity of my own solution, but also acknowledge your situation there.

The problem is this:

We can't win if your family lives. Your family will not live if we do not win. There is no hope for your family. It's a no-win scenario.

Blame the alliance on this. Blame the Council. Blame the Reapers most of all. They planned this. They're counting on this. As much as indoctrination, they're turning us against each other by using our own fears against us.

It's the true evil. And it's ingenious. 

That's why I advocate dispassion in this situation. Free yourself from emotion. From humanity. It's the only way to save humanity, to save the galaxy. 

Granted, my Shepard does differ for me here: while he advocates this, he also feels the protective urge for Miranda. She's his fundamental reason for fighting. When he's facing down the ending with nothing left, she's all he has, and he clings to her. It's what makes him gain the will to once again fight back and finish the Reapers once and for all.

To beat the Reapers, we must become something that is indeed terrible. But if it's the only way, I'm not going to let the galaxy burn because I don't like what I must become. 

The lives that everyone is to be, every survivor, every unborn child, every civilization that is to exist after this war depend on me becoming that.

That is my sacrifice. That is my cost.

But would your Shepard sacrifice what is most important to him? Would he let Miranda die?

I understand hard choices and agree that sometimes you have to let people die as was done in the Coventry raid. I know that it must have been hard on Churchill and those who were involved, but they really had no better choice. But those planes were not his ... they were the enemies. What you would be doing is sending in those planes on your own people. Would he still send in those planes if Miranda were there? Or her sister?

There are people who would sacrifice what is most dear to them ... I do not consider myself one of those people.

[Bourne Endeavor]

PMC65 wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Not to say I don't agree with you: I do. I really do. From my own experience in Afghanistan, I know how important and vital this can be. Not necessarily for myself personally, but on the level of my brother's and sister's, whom I now lead, I know this all too well. Believe me, I know.

And that is where perhaps the ultimate evil of the Reapers - and the ultimate genius behind their tactics - comes in:

The Reapers use this against us. The alliance, the Council... their inaction took that away from us. The greatest weapon we once had has now become our worst nightmare, our most bitter enemy.

The very nature of this war means that this philoophy, however noble, might apply no longer. That's the kind of war we fight. This kind of war waged by the Reapers is forcing us to fight this concept as well.

How do we fight that? 

I know how I'm going to fight it. I know it makes me seem inhumane, brutal, terrible, and cruel, but if all life is destroyed because we don't adapt to the change that the Reapers hace forced on us, I feel I would be much worse.

That's the greatest strength of the Reapers. They keep us off balance. They put is situations that we couldn't normally fight in. They test our resolve by taking what we hold dear and using it against us.

The challenge is that while the war may be different, we humans are not. I do agree that civilians would be on their own while the military and first responders would be waist high in husk goo. Just as the government has told us Californians that if an 8.0 quake hits, we will be on our own for at least two weeks as they focus on other priorities.

Now, if I found out that my family, my friends, my city were destroyed by my own leaders ... Hell hath no fury. My oath, my loyalty would be revoked. My hate would go from the reapers to the Alliance and this hate would be much more personal. Here I am risking my life and they would betray me and mine? No amount of explanation would make me accept the loss of my loved ones this way. 

Would I care anymore about the reapers? No. Would i start to sabotage the Alliance? Yes. Would others who also lost loved ones this way, follow? Probably. Now there is another group that the Alliance would have to fight and they created it by their own actions.
 
The military might think or even have good reasons for it, but they should also be ready for the consequences (backlash). They might try to do it on the sly ... somehow blame it on the reapers and pray that the secret is not revealed. After all, the truth would create a house divided and a sure win for the reapers.

A tough war, indeed. 
 

Admittedly, I would fabricate a story were I in a high authoritative position, shifting fault toward the Reapers, while preserving morale, thus preventing your very scenario from happening, relatively speaking. Depending on the circumstances, such drastic and morally suspect actions as the aforementioned may become necessary.

Coincidentally, Arrival depicts this, although sidesteps the justifiable backlash from Batarians. Destroying the colony was a necessary evil and no matter the moral qualm, choosing not to do so has far greater repercussions. In such a case, the life of your family or mine is simply not worth the lives of millions. That is the callous inevitability of war.