692 réponses à ce sujet

[MassivelyEffective0730]

rekn2 wrote...

and it has nothing to do with cold detachment. your idea would be laughed out of any cic.

Yes it would. I know exactly how my opinions would be received. That's why I tend not to share them to anyone else in the military. That's why I wouldn't apply them to the normal kinds of situations that we face.

But then again, this is a thought exercise: Would this be acceptable against the Reapers?

Personally, I think it'd be a big case of 'I told you so.'

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 10 août 2013 - 04:33 .

[Bourne Endeavor]

rekn2 wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

garrus and ashley squad wrote...

PMC65 wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Not to say I don't agree with you: I do. I really do. From my own experience in Afghanistan, I know how important and vital this can be. Not necessarily for myself personally, but on the level of my brother's and sister's, whom I now lead, I know this all too well. Believe me, I know.

And that is where perhaps the ultimate evil of the Reapers - and the ultimate genius behind their tactics - comes in:

The Reapers use this against us. The alliance, the Council... their inaction took that away from us. The greatest weapon we once had has now become our worst nightmare, our most bitter enemy.

The very nature of this war means that this philoophy, however noble, might apply no longer. That's the kind of war we fight. This kind of war waged by the Reapers is forcing us to fight this concept as well.

How do we fight that? 

I know how I'm going to fight it. I know it makes me seem inhumane, brutal, terrible, and cruel, but if all life is destroyed because we don't adapt to the change that the Reapers hace forced on us, I feel I would be much worse.

That's the greatest strength of the Reapers. They keep us off balance. They put is situations that we couldn't normally fight in. They test our resolve by taking what we hold dear and using it against us.

The challenge is that while the war may be different, we humans are not. I do agree that civilians would be on their own while the military and first responders would be waist high in husk goo. Just as the government has told us Californians that if an 8.0 quake hits, we will be on our own for at least two weeks as they focus on other priorities.

Now, if I found out that my family, my friends, my city were destroyed by my own leaders ... Hell hath no fury. My oath, my loyalty would be revoked. My hate would go from the reapers to the Alliance and this hate would be much more personal. Here I am risking my life and they would betray me and mine? No amount of explanation would make me accept the loss of my loved ones this way. 

Would I care anymore about the reapers? No. Would i start to sabotage the Alliance? Yes. Would others who also lost loved ones this way, follow? Probably. Now there is another group that the Alliance would have to fight and they created it by their own actions.
 
The military might think or even have good reasons for it, but they should also be ready for the consequences (backlash). They might try to do it on the sly ... somehow blame it on the reapers and pray that the secret is not revealed. After all, the truth would create a house divided and a sure win for the reapers.

A tough war, indeed. 
 

I couldn't have said it better. It's been my whole point, it's to risky. You risk a war on 2 fronts. Which is why it's much better to leave them alone, or find another solution. You would have military personel fighting amongst each other, and it wouldn't end well.

I suppose I can't count on others to be as... coldly detached as I am. I still see the validity of my own solution, but also acknowledge your situation there.

The problem is this:

We can't win if your family lives. Your family will not live if we do not win. There is no hope for your family. It's a no-win scenario.

Blame the alliance on this. Blame the Council. Blame the Reapers most of all. They planned this. They're counting on this. As much as indoctrination, they're turning us against each other by using our own fears against us.

It's the true evil. And it's ingenious. 

That's why I advocate dispassion in this situation. Free yourself from emotion. From humanity. It's the only way to save humanity, to save the galaxy. 

Granted, my Shepard does differ for me here: while he advocates this, he also feels the protective urge for Miranda. She's his fundamental reason for fighting. When he's facing down the ending with nothing left, she's all he has, and he clings to her. It's what makes him gain the will to once again fight back and finish the Reapers once and for all.

To beat the Reapers, we must become something that is indeed terrible. But if it's the only way, I'm not going to let the galaxy burn because I don't like what I must become. 

The lives that everyone is to be, every survivor, every unborn child, every civilization that is to exist after this war depend on me becoming that.

That is my sacrifice. That is my cost.

still spoken from a position of priviledge. maybe thats how things are done in NG but in the navy, no one in my unit would ever allow such a thing to happen. you intentionally murder a civilian and youll be lucky to live another minute.


your idea has about as much chance as seeing the light of day as arguing with the reapers over morals

Would that belief hold true in a scenario where nearly two million people are murdered daily? With such an enormous change in parameters, we cannot reasonably apply present day reaction. While I would not murder an innocent in cold blood, I would order a tactical strike on a location, provided doing so led to a worthwhile advantage, minimizing the casualties as best plausible.

Advantage against the Reapers to preserve organic life trumps the lives of civilians. Not a pleasant fact, but such is the reality of war on an apocalyptic scale.

Modifié par Bourne Endeavor, 10 août 2013 - 04:35 .

[rekn2]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

rekn2 wrote...

and it has nothing to do with cold detachment. your idea would be laughed out of any cic.

Yes it would. I know exactly how my opinions would be received. That's why I tend not to share them to anyone else in the military. That's why I wouldn't apply them to the normal kinds of situations that we face.

But then again, this is a thought exercise: Would this be acceptable against the Reapers?

on the coveat that a fantasy warrior like shep exists and had access to a 1 man operable super weapon? maybe.

[PMC65]

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

Admittedly, I would fabricate a story were I in a high authoritative position, shifting fault toward the Reapers, while preserving morale, thus preventing your very scenario from happening, relatively speaking. Depending on the circumstances, such drastic and morally suspect actions as the aforementioned may become necessary.

Coincidentally, Arrival depicts this, although sidesteps the justifiable backlash from Batarians. Destroying the colony was a necessary evil and no matter the moral qualm, choosing not to do so has far greater repercussions. In such a case, the life of your family or mine is simply not worth the lives of millions. That is the callous inevitability of war.

I could see the government doing that but it would get harder as the number of citizens/cities are destroyed. Rumors would begin and remember, there are sleeper agents out there who might be part of the team. They could easily pull a Snowden and ... house divided.

In a video game, I'd sacrifice anyone and everyone. No one is safe. In the real world however, I do not see me watching my parents die to save a million. They will have to find someone else who has problems with their parents ... which there are many.     

[rekn2]

StreetMagic wrote...

rekn2 wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

rekn2 wrote...

and it has nothing to do with cold detachment. your idea would be laughed out of any cic.

Yes it would. I know exactly how my opinions would be received. That's why I tend not to share them to anyone else in the military. That's why I wouldn't apply them to the normal kinds of situations that we face.

But then again, this is a thought exercise: Would this be acceptable against the Reapers?

on the coveat that a fantasy warrior like shep exists and had access to a 1 man operable super weapon? maybe.

Perfectly stated.

his arguement is entirely baseless. he may as well have said cerberus shouldve had people grow thanix cannon arms.

is there a name for a kind of arguement youre putting forth, massively? candyland fallacy ?

[PMC65]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

rekn2 wrote...

and it has nothing to do with cold detachment. your idea would be laughed out of any cic.

Yes it would. I know exactly how my opinions would be received. That's why I tend not to share them to anyone else in the military. That's why I wouldn't apply them to the normal kinds of situations that we face.

But then again, this is a thought exercise: Would this be acceptable against the Reapers?

Personally, I think it'd be a big case of 'I told you so.'

To be honest, there would be a need to think outside the box since the galaxy would be fighting creatures that had seen it all. How many races have they fought? How many strategies have failed?

I will say that your idea of killing citizens sounds like something Javik and his people would have tried already. 

Being in that war room filled with all manners of alien/human military minds would be interesting. I could see where civilians would be used in all manner of things. Cannon fodder and underground movements.

[garrus and ashley squad]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

garrus and ashley squad wrote...

PMC65 wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Not to say I don't agree with you: I do. I really do. From my own experience in Afghanistan, I know how important and vital this can be. Not necessarily for myself personally, but on the level of my brother's and sister's, whom I now lead, I know this all too well. Believe me, I know.

And that is where perhaps the ultimate evil of the Reapers - and the ultimate genius behind their tactics - comes in:

The Reapers use this against us. The alliance, the Council... their inaction took that away from us. The greatest weapon we once had has now become our worst nightmare, our most bitter enemy.

The very nature of this war means that this philoophy, however noble, might apply no longer. That's the kind of war we fight. This kind of war waged by the Reapers is forcing us to fight this concept as well.

How do we fight that? 

I know how I'm going to fight it. I know it makes me seem inhumane, brutal, terrible, and cruel, but if all life is destroyed because we don't adapt to the change that the Reapers hace forced on us, I feel I would be much worse.

That's the greatest strength of the Reapers. They keep us off balance. They put is situations that we couldn't normally fight in. They test our resolve by taking what we hold dear and using it against us.

The challenge is that while the war may be different, we humans are not. I do agree that civilians would be on their own while the military and first responders would be waist high in husk goo. Just as the government has told us Californians that if an 8.0 quake hits, we will be on our own for at least two weeks as they focus on other priorities.

Now, if I found out that my family, my friends, my city were destroyed by my own leaders ... Hell hath no fury. My oath, my loyalty would be revoked. My hate would go from the reapers to the Alliance and this hate would be much more personal. Here I am risking my life and they would betray me and mine? No amount of explanation would make me accept the loss of my loved ones this way. 

Would I care anymore about the reapers? No. Would i start to sabotage the Alliance? Yes. Would others who also lost loved ones this way, follow? Probably. Now there is another group that the Alliance would have to fight and they created it by their own actions.
 
The military might think or even have good reasons for it, but they should also be ready for the consequences (backlash). They might try to do it on the sly ... somehow blame it on the reapers and pray that the secret is not revealed. After all, the truth would create a house divided and a sure win for the reapers.

A tough war, indeed. 
 

I couldn't have said it better. It's been my whole point, it's to risky. You risk a war on 2 fronts. Which is why it's much better to leave them alone, or find another solution. You would have military personel fighting amongst each other, and it wouldn't end well.

I suppose I can't count on others to be as... coldly detached as I am. I still see the validity of my own solution, but also acknowledge your situation there.

The problem is this:

We can't win if your family lives. Your family will not live if we do not win. There is no hope for your family. It's a no-win scenario.

Blame the alliance on this. Blame the Council. Blame the Reapers most of all. They planned this. They're counting on this. As much as indoctrination, they're turning us against each other by using our own fears against us.

It's the true evil. And it's ingenious. 

That's why I advocate dispassion in this situation. Free yourself from emotion. From humanity. It's the only way to save humanity, to save the galaxy. 

Granted, my Shepard does differ for me here: while he advocates this, he also feels the protective urge for Miranda. She's his fundamental reason for fighting. When he's facing down the ending with nothing left, she's all he has, and he clings to her. It's what makes him gain the will to once again fight back and finish the Reapers once and for all.

To beat the Reapers, we must become something that is indeed terrible. But if it's the only way, I'm not going to let the galaxy burn because I don't like what I must become. 

The lives that everyone is to be, every survivor, every unborn child, every civilization that is to exist after this war depend on me becoming that.

That is my sacrifice. That is my cost.

They may win, but it's possible we keep them alive and still win this war. Even if I did forget about my emotions and detatched myself you would have to pursuade millions more in your army to do that, and I doubt you would. You're telling families to sacrifice loved ones.  In their eyes, we won't be any different than the reapers.

We can't fight 2 wars and hope to win. You would have countless people in your military taking arms against you. I ask you this, How would you be able to trust anyone to carry out a mission or order for you? Their loved ones are dead and you have to hope they will follow your command for the greater good. Some joined your army just to protect people. If you kill them then what are they fighting for? you would have to worry about all that while a reaper invasion is going on. Your time and effort can be put to better use than fighting 2 wars. There is no way we win 2 wars. There is a chance however, that we can win the war just fighting the reapers. No matter how small that is, its better than no chance, because people will fight and rebel against you, if you go this route. There is no way, parents, children, aunts, and uncles will be okay with this. You either have a chance keeping them alive or we have no chance at all. No matter how small of a chance it is there is no chance if you fight 2 wars, and this is without me taking into account the council and other races. They view their people with much respect, and would not allow you to kill their people as well. You wouldn't just have humans, but tourians, asari, and other races fighting you as well, along with the reapers. There is no way you can win that war. You have a better chance by keeping your people live.

My shepard had Ashley by his side and that did help me as well. Let me ask you this, would Miranda let you sacrifice her sister to stop this from happening. This is the same miranda who spent most of her time in me3 trying to keep her safe, while the reaper war was going on. That was miranda main goal throughout the game. I doubt she lets you kill her. I won't go into the full normandy crew, but that's just an example.

I'm not saying the reapers won't push us to our limit, but we can't win fighting each other, and choosing this route will result in that. My shepard is all about making the right choice and I really think this is the right thing to do. I understand your approach and it should be discussed, but there is no way everyone is on board with this. The reapers may make us make a difficult choice here and there. Going to save this planet while another one burns for example, but we don't commit murder after murder to increase our odds. it's easy in anywar to get rid of someone who isnt useful and may weaken your forces, but we don't do that because we're not machines. People have emotions and loved ones and will care. It's just how things are. 

My sacrifice will be in choosing someone over another, or even not helping someone and watching them burn, and at the end of the day, hope that the people fighting this war have someone to return home to, because that is what a lot of them are fighting for in the first place.

[rekn2]

[/quote]

To be honest, there would be a need to think outside the box since the galaxy would be fighting creatures that had seen it all. How many races have they fought? How many strategies have failed?

I will say that your idea of killing citizens sounds like something Javik and his people would have tried already. 

Being in that war room filled with all manners of alien/human military minds would be interesting. I could see where civilians would be used in all manner of things. Cannon fodder and underground movements.
[/quote]

i think youre confusing military personel with robots. you need people pushing buttons. dispite what anyone here thinks being intelligence doesnt give you a free ride to do w/e you want.

[garrus and ashley squad]

PMC65 wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

rekn2 wrote...

and it has nothing to do with cold detachment. your idea would be laughed out of any cic.

Yes it would. I know exactly how my opinions would be received. That's why I tend not to share them to anyone else in the military. That's why I wouldn't apply them to the normal kinds of situations that we face.

But then again, this is a thought exercise: Would this be acceptable against the Reapers?

Personally, I think it'd be a big case of 'I told you so.'

To be honest, there would be a need to think outside the box since the galaxy would be fighting creatures that had seen it all. How many races have they fought? How many strategies have failed?

I will say that your idea of killing citizens sounds like something Javik and his people would have tried already. 

Being in that war room filled with all manners of alien/human military minds would be interesting. I could see where civilians would be used in all manner of things. Cannon fodder and underground movements.

This, you've been saying what I've been thinking honestly. I think his idea should be heard and brought to the table. I just think it is to extreme, and would cause to much backlash. 

[MassivelyEffective0730]

[quote]PMC65 wrote...

[quote]MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

I suppose I can't count on others to be as... coldly detached as I am. I still see the validity of my own solution, but also acknowledge your situation there.

The problem is this:

We can't win if your family lives. Your family will not live if we do not win. There is no hope for your family. It's a no-win scenario.

Blame the alliance on this. Blame the Council. Blame the Reapers most of all. They planned this. They're counting on this. As much as indoctrination, they're turning us against each other by using our own fears against us.

It's the true evil. And it's ingenious. 

That's why I advocate dispassion in this situation. Free yourself from emotion. From humanity. It's the only way to save humanity, to save the galaxy. 

Granted, my Shepard does differ for me here: while he advocates this, he also feels the protective urge for Miranda. She's his fundamental reason for fighting. When he's facing down the ending with nothing left, she's all he has, and he clings to her. It's what makes him gain the will to once again fight back and finish the Reapers once and for all.

To beat the Reapers, we must become something that is indeed terrible. But if it's the only way, I'm not going to let the galaxy burn because I don't like what I must become. 

The lives that everyone is to be, every survivor, every unborn child, every civilization that is to exist after this war depend on me becoming that.

That is my sacrifice. That is my cost.

[/quote]

But would your Shepard sacrifice what is most important to him? Would he let Miranda die?

[/quote] I don't think he would. That said, she's not going to put herself in a situation where she might be in danger. I'm going to side-step your question: Miranda doesn't allow herself to become entangled by such a problem. Is Shepard ultimately capable? Yes. But he knows he isn't going to survive if something does happen to her. His fate is tied to hers.

[quote]
I understand hard choices and agree that sometimes you have to let people die as was done in the Coventry raid. I know that it must have been hard on Churchill and those who were involved, but they really had no better choice. But those planes were not his ... they were the enemies. What you would be doing is sending in those planes on your own people. Would he still send in those planes if Miranda were there? Or her sister?
[/quote]

Well first, that's a myth about the Coventry Blitz. The British had not actually received information from Ultra about the German raid on Coventry, though foreknowledge of a massive raid was in British hands.

On my own people? What choice would I have? Would I have a greater benefit to keeping my civilians alive? I'm not going to wantonly kill them if I can help them, unless they are in direct threat from a Reaper assault.

I think Miranda would have the ability and sense to avoid such a situation personally, and she's not going to let Oriana away from her supervision.
[/quote]

There are people who would sacrifice what is most dear to them ... I do not consider myself one of those people.
[/quote]

I... do.

I do. 

Because if I don't, others would have to.

It's not about strength or weakness. I think it's more about who we are.

[rekn2]

"They may win, but it's possible we keep them alive and still win this war. Even if I did forget about my emotions and detatched myself you would have to pursuade millions more in your army to do that, and I doubt you would. You're telling families to sacrifice loved ones.  In their eyes, we won't be any different than the reapers.

We can't fight 2 wars and hope to win. You would have countless people in your military taking arms against you. I ask you this, How would you be able to trust anyone to carry out a mission or order for you? Their loved ones are dead and you have to hope they will follow your command for the greater good. Some joined your army just to protect people. If you kill them then what are they fighting for? you would have to worry about all that while a reaper invasion is going on. Your time and effort can be put to better use than fighting 2 wars. There is no way we win 2 wars. There is a chance however, that we can win the war just fighting the reapers. No matter how small that is, its better than no chance, because people will fight and rebel against you, if you go this route. There is no way, parents, children, aunts, and uncles will be okay with this. You either have a chance keeping them alive or we have no chance at all. No matter how small of a chance it is there is no chance if you fight 2 wars, and this is without me taking into account the council and other races. They view their people with much respect, and would not allow you to kill their people as well. You wouldn't just have humans, but tourians, asari, and other races fighting you as well, along with the reapers. There is no way you can win that war. You have a better chance by keeping your people live.

My shepard had Ashley by his side and that did help me as well. Let me ask you this, would Miranda let you sacrifice her sister to stop this from happening. This is the same miranda who spent most of her time in me3 trying to keep her safe, while the reaper war was going on. That was miranda main goal throughout the game. I doubt she lets you kill her. I won't go into the full normandy crew, but that's just an example.

I'm not saying the reapers won't push us to our limit, but we can't win fighting each other, and choosing this route will result in that. My shepard is all about making the right choice and I really think this is the right thing to do. I understand your approach and it should be discussed, but there is no way everyone is on board with this. The reapers may make us make a difficult choice here and there. Going to save this planet while another one burns for example, but we don't commit murder after murder to increase our odds. it's easy in anywar to get rid of someone who isnt useful and may weaken your forces, but we don't do that because we're not machines. People have emotions and loved ones and will care. It's just how things are. 

My sacrifice will be in choosing someone over another, or even not helping someone and watching them burn, and at the end of the day, hope that the people fighting this war have someone to return home to, because that is what a lot of them are fighting for in the first place."

they wouldnt. the likelyhood of people killing their own families, a million people doing it is laughable

Modifié par rekn2, 10 août 2013 - 04:57 .

[rekn2]

[quote]MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

[quote]PMC65 wrote...

[quote]MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

I suppose I can't count on others to be as... coldly detached as I am. I still see the validity of my own solution, but also acknowledge your situation there.

The problem is this:

We can't win if your family lives. Your family will not live if we do not win. There is no hope for your family. It's a no-win scenario.

Blame the alliance on this. Blame the Council. Blame the Reapers most of all. They planned this. They're counting on this. As much as indoctrination, they're turning us against each other by using our own fears against us.

It's the true evil. And it's ingenious. 

That's why I advocate dispassion in this situation. Free yourself from emotion. From humanity. It's the only way to save humanity, to save the galaxy. 

Granted, my Shepard does differ for me here: while he advocates this, he also feels the protective urge for Miranda. She's his fundamental reason for fighting. When he's facing down the ending with nothing left, she's all he has, and he clings to her. It's what makes him gain the will to once again fight back and finish the Reapers once and for all.

To beat the Reapers, we must become something that is indeed terrible. But if it's the only way, I'm not going to let the galaxy burn because I don't like what I must become. 

The lives that everyone is to be, every survivor, every unborn child, every civilization that is to exist after this war depend on me becoming that.

That is my sacrifice. That is my cost.

[/quote]

But would your Shepard sacrifice what is most important to him? Would he let Miranda die?

[/quote] I don't think he would. That said, she's not going to put herself in a situation where she might be in danger. I'm going to side-step your question: Miranda doesn't allow herself to become entangled by such a problem. Is Shepard ultimately capable? Yes. But he knows he isn't going to survive if something does happen to her. His fate is tied to hers.

[quote]
I understand hard choices and agree that sometimes you have to let people die as was done in the Coventry raid. I know that it must have been hard on Churchill and those who were involved, but they really had no better choice. But those planes were not his ... they were the enemies. What you would be doing is sending in those planes on your own people. Would he still send in those planes if Miranda were there? Or her sister?
[/quote]

Well first, that's a myth about the Coventry Blitz. The British had not actually received information from Ultra about the German raid on Coventry, though foreknowledge of a massive raid was in British hands.

On my own people? What choice would I have? Would I have a greater benefit to keeping my civilians alive? I'm not going to wantonly kill them if I can help them, unless they are in direct threat from a Reaper assault.

I think Miranda would have the ability and sense to avoid such a situation personally, and she's not going to let Oriana away from her supervision.
[/quote]

There are people who would sacrifice what is most dear to them ... I do not consider myself one of those people.
[/quote]



you would never have the ammount of people it would take to pull off that plan

Modifié par rekn2, 10 août 2013 - 04:58 .

[PMC65]

garrus and ashley squad wrote...

PMC65 wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

rekn2 wrote...

and it has nothing to do with cold detachment. your idea would be laughed out of any cic.

Yes it would. I know exactly how my opinions would be received. That's why I tend not to share them to anyone else in the military. That's why I wouldn't apply them to the normal kinds of situations that we face.

But then again, this is a thought exercise: Would this be acceptable against the Reapers?

Personally, I think it'd be a big case of 'I told you so.'

To be honest, there would be a need to think outside the box since the galaxy would be fighting creatures that had seen it all. How many races have they fought? How many strategies have failed?

I will say that your idea of killing citizens sounds like something Javik and his people would have tried already. 

Being in that war room filled with all manners of alien/human military minds would be interesting. I could see where civilians would be used in all manner of things. Cannon fodder and underground movements.

This, you've been saying what I've been thinking honestly. I think his idea should be heard and brought to the table. I just think it is to extreme, and would cause to much backlash. 

Sometimes extreme measures are needed when all else fails.

If we were losing the war and killing our own would save at least some live... what then? I would have no choice but to lose a part of us in order to save a part of us. How bitter that would be. 

But it would have to be our only hope since as Shakespeare once wrote ...

Put out the light, and then put out the light.

If I quench thee, thou flaming minister,

I can again thy former light restore

Should I repent me. But once put out thy light,

Thou cunning’st pattern of excelling nature,

I know not where is that Promethean heat

That can thy light relume.


As to the Coventry raid, there are debates on whether or not that happened ... just as FDR knowing about Pearl Harbor. But if both events were true, I would understand why the choices would have been to let them happen as is. I don't think that I could have done it though. But I'm also not a Prime Minister or President. Or am I?

[rekn2]

get out of here ashley, this is a pro-cerb thread!

[garrus and ashley squad]

PMC65 wrote...

garrus and ashley squad wrote...

PMC65 wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

rekn2 wrote...

and it has nothing to do with cold detachment. your idea would be laughed out of any cic.

Yes it would. I know exactly how my opinions would be received. That's why I tend not to share them to anyone else in the military. That's why I wouldn't apply them to the normal kinds of situations that we face.

But then again, this is a thought exercise: Would this be acceptable against the Reapers?

Personally, I think it'd be a big case of 'I told you so.'

To be honest, there would be a need to think outside the box since the galaxy would be fighting creatures that had seen it all. How many races have they fought? How many strategies have failed?

I will say that your idea of killing citizens sounds like something Javik and his people would have tried already. 

Being in that war room filled with all manners of alien/human military minds would be interesting. I could see where civilians would be used in all manner of things. Cannon fodder and underground movements.

This, you've been saying what I've been thinking honestly. I think his idea should be heard and brought to the table. I just think it is to extreme, and would cause to much backlash. 

Sometimes extreme measures are needed when all else fails.

If we were losing the war and killing our own would save at least some live... what then? I would have no choice but to lose a part of us in order to save a part of us. How bitter that would be. 

But it would have to be our only hope since as Shakespeare once wrote ...

Put out the light, and then put out the light.

If I quench thee, thou flaming minister,

I can again thy former light restore

Should I repent me. But once put out thy light,

Thou cunning’st pattern of excelling nature,

I know not where is that Promethean heat

That can thy light relume.


As to the Coventry raid, there are debates on whether or not that happened ... just as FDR knowing about Pearl Harbor. But if both events were true, I would understand why the choices would have been to let them happen as is. I don't think that I could have done it though. But I'm also not a Prime Minister or President. Or am I?

I as well believe they are needed. We just don't need to go to that level. As the backlash and other things would be to much. I' am all for doing what must be done, but we need to know what is to extreme. Just like extreme measures are neccessary so are peaceful ones. To much of any one of them can lead to a downfall.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

rekn2 wrote...

"They may win, but it's possible we keep them alive and still win this war. Even if I did forget about my emotions and detatched myself you would have to pursuade millions more in your army to do that, and I doubt you would. You're telling families to sacrifice loved ones.  In their eyes, we won't be any different than the reapers.

We can't fight 2 wars and hope to win. You would have countless people in your military taking arms against you. I ask you this, How would you be able to trust anyone to carry out a mission or order for you? Their loved ones are dead and you have to hope they will follow your command for the greater good. Some joined your army just to protect people. If you kill them then what are they fighting for? you would have to worry about all that while a reaper invasion is going on. Your time and effort can be put to better use than fighting 2 wars. There is no way we win 2 wars. There is a chance however, that we can win the war just fighting the reapers. No matter how small that is, its better than no chance, because people will fight and rebel against you, if you go this route. There is no way, parents, children, aunts, and uncles will be okay with this. You either have a chance keeping them alive or we have no chance at all. No matter how small of a chance it is there is no chance if you fight 2 wars, and this is without me taking into account the council and other races. They view their people with much respect, and would not allow you to kill their people as well. You wouldn't just have humans, but tourians, asari, and other races fighting you as well, along with the reapers. There is no way you can win that war. You have a better chance by keeping your people live.

My shepard had Ashley by his side and that did help me as well. Let me ask you this, would Miranda let you sacrifice her sister to stop this from happening. This is the same miranda who spent most of her time in me3 trying to keep her safe, while the reaper war was going on. That was miranda main goal throughout the game. I doubt she lets you kill her. I won't go into the full normandy crew, but that's just an example.

I'm not saying the reapers won't push us to our limit, but we can't win fighting each other, and choosing this route will result in that. My shepard is all about making the right choice and I really think this is the right thing to do. I understand your approach and it should be discussed, but there is no way everyone is on board with this. The reapers may make us make a difficult choice here and there. Going to save this planet while another one burns for example, but we don't commit murder after murder to increase our odds. it's easy in anywar to get rid of someone who isnt useful and may weaken your forces, but we don't do that because we're not machines. People have emotions and loved ones and will care. It's just how things are. 

My sacrifice will be in choosing someone over another, or even not helping someone and watching them burn, and at the end of the day, hope that the people fighting this war have someone to return home to, because that is what a lot of them are fighting for in the first place."

they wouldnt. the likelyhood of people killing their own families, a million people doing it is laughable

Garrus' quote about dictator's comes to mind...

That's my biggest issue; overcoming human nature (and the associated natures of other species).

In the fight against the Reapers, I don't think we can win without overcoming human nature. We already have to do so to a monumental level just to come together to fight the Reapers and build the Crucible. 

I don't think we have a chance if people choose to fight me. 

Just as I don't think we have a chance if we don't lose the... excess baggage.

As for Miranda, I don't believe she's going to just allow Oriana out of her sight. And she's not going to put herself in a situation where Oriana might be endangered. But I don't think Miranda is going to allow Oriana to risk herself.

I don't think we should become emotional machines. But I think we should steel ourselves of compassion.

I think it apples to a degree; The Halo Effect, the use of the Halo's in that universe. Especially for a race that held a mandate to protect all life, they were faced with a difficult decision by an enemy that defied their conventions and philosophy (for the similar causes of not being accepted as a real threat similar to how the Reapers are dismissed by the alliance and the Council). By the time the war begins, it's already lost. The Forerunner have to do something that violates their mandate to protect all life, in order to protect all life. 

That's the catch-22 I'm in. through this situation.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 10 août 2013 - 05:33 .

[PMC65]

garrus and ashley squad wrote...

I as well believe they are needed. We just don't need to go to that level. As the backlash and other things would be to much. I' am all for doing what must be done, but we need to know what is to extreme. Just like extreme measures are neccessary so are peaceful ones. To much of any one of them can lead to a downfall.

I think peace should always be the first choice but the reapers probably wouldn't listen. Unless it means that we peacefully become slushies for them.

I just think that in this war there would be no civilians ... all of us would be in the trenches fighting to some degree.
What would happen to those that could not protect themselves? Like children, the elderly and sick? Hopefully, others would step in and with shotguns, frying pans and Chevy Camaros, keep them safe. Earth alone has places to hide as the reapers and their minions focus on the major cities first. Just how long they could hold out though is anyone's guess. 

As to Cerberus ... I wish that they had been more grey than the twirling mustache evil in the end.

[garrus and ashley squad]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

rekn2 wrote...

"They may win, but it's possible we keep them alive and still win this war. Even if I did forget about my emotions and detatched myself you would have to pursuade millions more in your army to do that, and I doubt you would. You're telling families to sacrifice loved ones.  In their eyes, we won't be any different than the reapers.

We can't fight 2 wars and hope to win. You would have countless people in your military taking arms against you. I ask you this, How would you be able to trust anyone to carry out a mission or order for you? Their loved ones are dead and you have to hope they will follow your command for the greater good. Some joined your army just to protect people. If you kill them then what are they fighting for? you would have to worry about all that while a reaper invasion is going on. Your time and effort can be put to better use than fighting 2 wars. There is no way we win 2 wars. There is a chance however, that we can win the war just fighting the reapers. No matter how small that is, its better than no chance, because people will fight and rebel against you, if you go this route. There is no way, parents, children, aunts, and uncles will be okay with this. You either have a chance keeping them alive or we have no chance at all. No matter how small of a chance it is there is no chance if you fight 2 wars, and this is without me taking into account the council and other races. They view their people with much respect, and would not allow you to kill their people as well. You wouldn't just have humans, but tourians, asari, and other races fighting you as well, along with the reapers. There is no way you can win that war. You have a better chance by keeping your people live.

My shepard had Ashley by his side and that did help me as well. Let me ask you this, would Miranda let you sacrifice her sister to stop this from happening. This is the same miranda who spent most of her time in me3 trying to keep her safe, while the reaper war was going on. That was miranda main goal throughout the game. I doubt she lets you kill her. I won't go into the full normandy crew, but that's just an example.

I'm not saying the reapers won't push us to our limit, but we can't win fighting each other, and choosing this route will result in that. My shepard is all about making the right choice and I really think this is the right thing to do. I understand your approach and it should be discussed, but there is no way everyone is on board with this. The reapers may make us make a difficult choice here and there. Going to save this planet while another one burns for example, but we don't commit murder after murder to increase our odds. it's easy in anywar to get rid of someone who isnt useful and may weaken your forces, but we don't do that because we're not machines. People have emotions and loved ones and will care. It's just how things are. 

My sacrifice will be in choosing someone over another, or even not helping someone and watching them burn, and at the end of the day, hope that the people fighting this war have someone to return home to, because that is what a lot of them are fighting for in the first place."

they wouldnt. the likelyhood of people killing their own families, a million people doing it is laughable

Garrus' quote about dictator's comes to mind...

That's my biggest issue; overcoming human nature (and the associated natures of other species).

In the fight against the Reapers, I don't think we can win without overcoming human nature. We already have to do so to a monumental level just to come together to fight the Reapers and build the Crucible. 

I don't think we have a chance if people choose to fight me. 

Just as I don't think we have a chance if we don't lose the... excess baggage.

As for Miranda, I don't believe she's going to just allow Oriana out of her sight. And she's not going to put herself in a situation where Oriana might be endangered. But I don't think Miranda is going to allow Oriana to risk herself.

I don't think we should become emotional machines. But I think we should steel ourselves of compassion.

I think it apples to a degree; The Halo Effect, the use of the Halo's in that universe. Especially for a race that held a mandate to protect all life, they were faced with a difficult decision by an enemy that defied their conventions and philosophy (for the similar causes of not being accepted as a real threat similar to how the Reapers are dismissed by the alliance and the Council). By the time the war begins, it's already lost. The Forerunner have to do something that violates their mandate to protect all life, in order to protect all life. 

That's the catch-22 I'm in. through this situation.

I can understand you're reasoning and thought process to this. It's a tough decision and your idea should be brought up and discuessed. The only thing is like you said. We have human emotion. Were not machines. For instances lets say you have a son that is 14 years old and you love him to death. You're not going to send him to his death for the better good. Do you really think you would be able to send him on his way to his death, and even if you can do it you're asking millions to do the same thing. I can understand how you think we must get rid emotion to defeat a threat on this scale but the cost is just to high. To many other variables and emotions to deal with as well. 

Just like with Miranda she is not going to let her out of her sight. I don't think others will let their children go to their death.

[garrus and ashley squad]

PMC65 wrote...

garrus and ashley squad wrote...

I as well believe they are needed. We just don't need to go to that level. As the backlash and other things would be to much. I' am all for doing what must be done, but we need to know what is to extreme. Just like extreme measures are neccessary so are peaceful ones. To much of any one of them can lead to a downfall.

I think peace should always be the first choice but the reapers probably wouldn't listen. Unless it means that we peacefully become slushies for them.

I just think that in this war there would be no civilians ... all of us would be in the trenches fighting to some degree.
What would happen to those that could not protect themselves? Like children, the elderly and sick? Hopefully, others would step in and with shotguns, frying pans and Chevy Camaros, keep them safe. Earth alone has places to hide as the reapers and their minions focus on the major cities first. Just how long they could hold out though is anyone's guess. 

As to Cerberus ... I wish that they had been more grey than the twirling mustache evil in the end.

Agreed, we don't really have a choice in that situation but to fight.

[rekn2]

[quote]MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...


[/quote]

Garrus' quote about dictator's comes to mind...

That's my biggest issue; overcoming human nature (and the associated natures of other species).

In the fight against the Reapers, I don't think we can win without overcoming human nature. We already have to do so to a monumental level just to come together to fight the Reapers and build the Crucible. 

I don't think we have a chance if people choose to fight me. 

Just as I don't think we have a chance if we don't lose the... excess baggage.

As for Miranda, I don't believe she's going to just allow Oriana out of her sight. And she's not going to put herself in a situation where Oriana might be endangered. But I don't think Miranda is going to allow Oriana to risk herself.

I don't think we should become emotional machines. But I think we should steel ourselves of compassion.

I think it apples to a degree; The Halo Effect, the use of the Halo's in that universe. Especially for a race that held a mandate to protect all life, they were faced with a difficult decision by an enemy that defied their conventions and philosophy (for the similar causes of not being accepted as a real threat similar to how the Reapers are dismissed by the alliance and the Council). By the time the war begins, it's already lost. The Forerunner have to do something that violates their mandate to protect all life, in order to protect all life. 

That's the catch-22 I'm in. through this situation.

[/quote]

im prior military, i understand baggage and peoples shortcomings as you do...in all my years ive learned its best to deal with them.

[Bourne Endeavor]

PMC65 wrote...

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

Admittedly, I would fabricate a story were I in a high authoritative position, shifting fault toward the Reapers, while preserving morale, thus preventing your very scenario from happening, relatively speaking. Depending on the circumstances, such drastic and morally suspect actions as the aforementioned may become necessary.

Coincidentally, Arrival depicts this, although sidesteps the justifiable backlash from Batarians. Destroying the colony was a necessary evil and no matter the moral qualm, choosing not to do so has far greater repercussions. In such a case, the life of your family or mine is simply not worth the lives of millions. That is the callous inevitability of war.

I could see the government doing that but it would get harder as the number of citizens/cities are destroyed. Rumors would begin and remember, there are sleeper agents out there who might be part of the team. They could easily pull a Snowden and ... house divided.

In a video game, I'd sacrifice anyone and everyone. No one is safe. In the real world however, I do not see me watching my parents die to save a million. They will have to find someone else who has problems with their parents ... which there are many.     

A possibility, but you would be surprised. A well concealed lie can become the truth if repeated enough times. Such a scenario essentially boils down to picking the devil you know or the one you don't. A leak could happen, potentially fracturing moral, however the Reapers would win if we do not exploit necessary risks and sacrifices.

Understandable, and I would not wish that position on anyone. Unfortunately, war of this scale may force your hand. To quote an exchange from Thessia.

Javik: "Your empathy is a weakness. You must numb yourself to loss."
*and if you bring up Benezia*
Javik: "Yet it did not stop you from fighting. As I said, steal yourself. Many more lives will be lost."
Shepard: "I know it's difficult, Liara, but he's right. You could spend all day counting casualties."
Javik: "When you should be avenging them."
Liara: "I'm sorry. I can't be that callous."
Javik: "War doesn't always provide you a choice."

No one makes a decision of this magnitude lightly. Put yourself not in the soldier's position, but the general. Do you attempt to save the few or the many? You may lose your family and justifiably be demoralized, however millions more live because of it. War does not allow us to be selfish. If you strive for everything, you may end up with nothing.

Just for reference sake, this is purposely painting a winless scenario. If saving both was an option, taking it should be obvious.

Unrelated, but damn Paragons. I had to reload a ME3 file for that quote because y'all want to be heroes on Youtube.

Modifié par Bourne Endeavor, 10 août 2013 - 07:06 .

[Bourne Endeavor]

PMC65 wrote...

garrus and ashley squad wrote...

I as well believe they are needed. We just don't need to go to that level. As the backlash and other things would be to much. I' am all for doing what must be done, but we need to know what is to extreme. Just like extreme measures are neccessary so are peaceful ones. To much of any one of them can lead to a downfall.

I think peace should always be the first choice but the reapers probably wouldn't listen. Unless it means that we peacefully become slushies for them.

I just think that in this war there would be no civilians ... all of us would be in the trenches fighting to some degree.
What would happen to those that could not protect themselves? Like children, the elderly and sick? Hopefully, others would step in and with shotguns, frying pans and Chevy Camaros, keep them safe. Earth alone has places to hide as the reapers and their minions focus on the major cities first. Just how long they could hold out though is anyone's guess. 

As to Cerberus ... I wish that they had been more grey than the twirling mustache evil in the end.

Aye. When you have essentially a robotic zombie apocalypse, you sort of need to fight yourself. I do wish the game focused a bit more of the civilian side and people's efforts to resist. There are a few scenes that touch on the subject, some more than others, but I feel this was an excellent opportunity to real demonstrate the effect war has on people. The ambient dialogue when you walk around the Citadel was fantastic in that respect.

It's ironic, really. BioWare seemed to do a significantly better job with emotion and the callous nature of war when they weren't trying - it flowed naturally. Yet when they dedicated scenes on the subject, it was often less than stellar.

[AngryFrozenWater]

I've read both the OP and the OP of the other thread. I understand the idea behind it.

Nobody owes anything to whatever organization or government. They are born in a society and that happened without any choice of the ones being born. Once you grow up you can decide to join that system or fight against it. That free will is the mechanism for changing the future (for better or worse). The Intelligence with it's genocide cycles ensures that this change can never come to fruition by exterminating civilizations before their apex. And thus it not only commits cyclical atrocities, it also robs the galactic civilizations of free will. The right of self-determination has been violated, not only on a personal level, but also on a galactic scale. Even the Three Choices are forced. And thus the Intelligence prevents progress.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 10 août 2013 - 08:19 .

[nos_astra]

I'm really confused by MassivelyEffective0730's attitude. Did you really manage to delude yourself into thinking that Cerberus as presented by Bioware is anything more than the very shallow veneer of gruesome, failed experiments and a bit of enigmatic blabla over a core of nothing?

Your ideas doesn't seem well thought out and completely disregards the complex dynamic of human relationships. How does your sort of leadership even work? What is your basis? Will you be extremely rich and trustworthy staff will just appear out of thin air? Will there be dissent? No? Why? There always is. Are they brainwashed into eating up every word you breathe? How did you manage to convince them that you are the awesomest leader of them all and that their is no alternative? Because chances are there is more than just one viable solution and more competent people who are better at selling ideas than you.

Just as someone said: Killing civilians for the sake of killing civilians with the paper-thin excuse that that's totally for the greater good and the pros do outweigh the cons because I SAY SO!

Modifié par klarabella, 10 août 2013 - 11:03 .