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[Fixers0]

The biggest problem with Cerberus, which was addmitted several times by Drew Karpyshyn recently, is their lack of any form of coherence, they were a tool by the designers that could be moulded into what ever the narratives needs them to be, and that's why they could never be taken seriously from a design perspective, literally every piece of narrative that involves Cerberus enforces this.

Modifié par Fixers0, 10 août 2013 - 11:35 .

[Alien Number Six]

klarabella wrote...

I'm really confused by MassivelyEffective0730's attitude. Did you really manage to delude yourself into thinking that Cerberus as presented by Bioware is anything more than the very shallow veneer of gruesome, failed experiments and a bit of enigmatic blabla over a core of nothing?

Your ideas doesn't seem well thought out and completely disregards the complex dynamic of human relationships. How does your sort of leadership even work? What is your basis? Will you be extremely rich and trustworthy staff will just appear out of thin air? Will there be dissent? No? Why? There always is. Are they brainwashed into eating up every word you breathe? How did you manage to convince them that you are the awesomest leader of them all and that their is no alternative? Because chances are there is more than just one viable solution and more competent people who are better at selling ideas than you.

Just as someone said: Killing civilians for the sake of killing civilians with the paper-thin excuse that that's totally for the greater good and the pros do outweigh the cons because I SAY SO!

I don't like MassivelyEffective730 at all. However I do not call him deluded or a racist like some have done in this thread. I simply ignore what he posts and if he quotes me I ignore that too. If you don't agree with him that's fine but arguing with him won't change his opinion.

[Seboist]

Fixers0 wrote...

The biggest problem with Cerberus, which was addmitted several times by Drew Karpyshyn recently, is their lack of any form of coherence, they were a tool by the designers that could be moulded into what ever the narratives needs them to be, and that's why they could never be taken seriously from a design perspective, literally every piece of narrative that involves Cerberus enforcers this.

Indeed.

ME1: Small Alliance black ops gone rogue that's even stated to be wiped out if you do the kohoku quest chain before the one with Col. Toombs. It's implied to be run by some General as well

Ascension: Now they're run by some billionare whose HQ is on the Cord-Hislop penthouse on earth

ME2: Now they're some James Bond-esque SPECTRE type organization who likes to slap logos on everything and whose prior alliance backstory has been quietly retconned or ignored(not sure if Ascension also ignored/retconned it too). TIM now is based on some space station.

Retribution: Not much difference as before but it's stated they were severely crippled and almost wiped out by the Turians, which makes our next entry all the more hilarious....

ME3: Galactic Sith Empire able to wage war on several fronts. This makes ME2's already dumb plot even more dumb with regards to Lazarus and Shep working with them. They also serve no narrative purpose whatsoever in this, they're just there to provide human mooks to shoot at and nothing they do has anything to do with making the control ending possible.

[Vigilant111]

@OP: Maybe you should also thank the reapers for letting the humans live last time they were around, I mean without that, Shepard might have never been born

Look, what we are examining is a contingent truth, there was no way to ascertain whether Shepard will retain full personality before his / her resurrection (and his / her subsequent "success" against the reapers, Cerberus took a risk, and the investment paid off, well, at least partially since Shepard did not quite adhere to Cerberus ideals. Also, the ending "achieved" is a product of galactic unity under Shepard's leadership, the efforts from the Alliance and other races cannot be impartial to the fall of reapers

So, no. Just because they brought Shepard back from the dead does not mean they are vindicated

[Alien Number Six]

Cerburus wasted many lives in the name of research. There is never a good reason for that. Once they crossed that line they became the ****s of the Mass Effect universe. Hitler also had good intentions when he took over Germany's parliament and installed himself as the Fuhur. He also went mad with power. But some people still hold him and his party up as a example to be followed. Cerburus is a stain on the galaxy dispite bringing Shepard back to life.

[Alien Number Six]

Alien Number Six wrote...

Cerburus wasted many lives in the name of research. There is never a good reason for that. Once they crossed that line they became the Na+zis of the Mass Effect universe. Hitler also had good intentions when he took over Germany's parliament and installed himself as the Fuhur. He also went mad with power. But some people still hold him and his party up as a example to be followed. Cerburus is a stain on the galaxy dispite bringing Shepard back to life.

[LiL Reapur]

Alien Number Six wrote...

Cerburus wasted many lives in the name of research. There is never a good reason for that. Once they crossed that line they became the ****s of the Mass Effect universe. Hitler also had good intentions when he took over Germany's parliament and installed himself as the Fuhur. He also went mad with power. But some people still hold him and his party up as a example to be followed. Cerburus is a stain on the galaxy dispite bringing Shepard back to life.

In your opinion..........
There are alot of people that think Cerberus does good work, not that I'm one of them.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Alien Number Six wrote...

Cerburus wasted many lives in the name of research. There is never a good reason for that. Once they crossed that line they became the ****s of the Mass Effect universe. Hitler also had good intentions when he took over Germany's parliament and installed himself as the Fuhur. He also went mad with power. But some people still hold him and his party up as a example to be followed. Cerburus is a stain on the galaxy dispite bringing Shepard back to life.

Reductio ad Hitlerum.

I'll just leave that there.

We'll disagree on the belief of reasons over research.

I think a galactic apocalypse is a worthy enough reason.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 10 août 2013 - 01:35 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Seboist wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

The biggest problem with Cerberus, which was addmitted several times by Drew Karpyshyn recently, is their lack of any form of coherence, they were a tool by the designers that could be moulded into what ever the narratives needs them to be, and that's why they could never be taken seriously from a design perspective, literally every piece of narrative that involves Cerberus enforcers this.

Indeed.

ME1: Small Alliance black ops gone rogue that's even stated to be wiped out if you do the kohoku quest chain before the one with Col. Toombs. It's implied to be run by some General as well

Ascension: Now they're run by some billionare whose HQ is on the Cord-Hislop penthouse on earth

ME2: Now they're some James Bond-esque SPECTRE type organization who likes to slap logos on everything and whose prior alliance backstory has been quietly retconned or ignored(not sure if Ascension also ignored/retconned it too). TIM now is based on some space station.

Retribution: Not much difference as before but it's stated they were severely crippled and almost wiped out by the Turians, which makes our next entry all the more hilarious....

ME3: Galactic Sith Empire able to wage war on several fronts. This makes ME2's already dumb plot even more dumb with regards to Lazarus and Shep working with them. They also serve no narrative purpose whatsoever in this, they're just there to provide human mooks to shoot at and nothing they do has anything to do with making the control ending possible.

And then look at the comics as well. They're definitely changing things in there too. 

Right now, it seems SuperMac is content to make them mustache twirling bad-guys.

[Bourne Endeavor]

Fixers0 wrote...

The biggest problem with Cerberus, which was addmitted several times by Drew Karpyshyn recently, is their lack of any form of coherence, they were a tool by the designers that could be moulded into what ever the narratives needs them to be, and that's why they could never be taken seriously from a design perspective, literally every piece of narrative that involves Cerberus enforces this.

As I mentioned earlier, this holds true of numerous aspect throughout the series. Mass Effect has a structurally disjointed and inconsistent narrative that relies on a vague storytelling tool to give the impression of consistency. Not an inherently flawed concept if used in moderation. Some examples:

The Council

ME1: Reasonably skeptical, Turian racism aside.
ME2: Obstinately in denial
ME3: Remarkably short-sighted, skeptical.

In such case, their is a vague connection that explains their actions, yet does so in a flippant nature.

The Alliance

ME1: Politically motivated.
ME2: Completely apathetic.
ME3: Leader of the War Effort.

Once again, similar connection. The Alliance rarely does anything, yet the explanation changes until they are forced to react for plot purposes.

The Reapers

ME1: Ominous machine race; contempt for organics.
ME2: Part organic; contempt for species not humanity.
ME3: Subservient death machines.

Notice how as the series progressed one element changed each time, or rather, was dropped entirely?

The species

ME1: Widely diversifying species and cultures.
ME2: Humanity is most diversifying.
ME3: Humanity is most important.

In a galactic society, humanity climbed the proverbial ladder of importance a little too easily. Not necessarily bad, however the use of junk science (ME2) and vague insinuations the Reaper armada congregated at Earth (ME3), is stretching it.


And so forth. You could write a book of BioWare relying far too heavily on this narrative tool, all to cobble together a standalone story that attempts to be trilogy.

Modifié par Bourne Endeavor, 10 août 2013 - 01:59 .

[rekn2]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

The biggest problem with Cerberus, which was addmitted several times by Drew Karpyshyn recently, is their lack of any form of coherence, they were a tool by the designers that could be moulded into what ever the narratives needs them to be, and that's why they could never be taken seriously from a design perspective, literally every piece of narrative that involves Cerberus enforcers this.

Indeed.

ME1: Small Alliance black ops gone rogue that's even stated to be wiped out if you do the kohoku quest chain before the one with Col. Toombs. It's implied to be run by some General as well

Ascension: Now they're run by some billionare whose HQ is on the Cord-Hislop penthouse on earth

ME2: Now they're some James Bond-esque SPECTRE type organization who likes to slap logos on everything and whose prior alliance backstory has been quietly retconned or ignored(not sure if Ascension also ignored/retconned it too). TIM now is based on some space station.

Retribution: Not much difference as before but it's stated they were severely crippled and almost wiped out by the Turians, which makes our next entry all the more hilarious....

ME3: Galactic Sith Empire able to wage war on several fronts. This makes ME2's already dumb plot even more dumb with regards to Lazarus and Shep working with them. They also serve no narrative purpose whatsoever in this, they're just there to provide human mooks to shoot at and nothing they do has anything to do with making the control ending possible.

And then look at the comics as well. They're definitely changing things in there too. 

Right now, it seems SuperMac is content to make them mustache twirling bad-guys.

exactly. i think we know that if cerberus were to actually exist there wouldnt be so many, if any, blunders like there has been. im not saying they wouldnt have been indoced eventually but the absurd levels of absolute fail would never get as high

[MassivelyEffective0730]

rekn2 wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

The biggest problem with Cerberus, which was addmitted several times by Drew Karpyshyn recently, is their lack of any form of coherence, they were a tool by the designers that could be moulded into what ever the narratives needs them to be, and that's why they could never be taken seriously from a design perspective, literally every piece of narrative that involves Cerberus enforcers this.

Indeed.

ME1: Small Alliance black ops gone rogue that's even stated to be wiped out if you do the kohoku quest chain before the one with Col. Toombs. It's implied to be run by some General as well

Ascension: Now they're run by some billionare whose HQ is on the Cord-Hislop penthouse on earth

ME2: Now they're some James Bond-esque SPECTRE type organization who likes to slap logos on everything and whose prior alliance backstory has been quietly retconned or ignored(not sure if Ascension also ignored/retconned it too). TIM now is based on some space station.

Retribution: Not much difference as before but it's stated they were severely crippled and almost wiped out by the Turians, which makes our next entry all the more hilarious....

ME3: Galactic Sith Empire able to wage war on several fronts. This makes ME2's already dumb plot even more dumb with regards to Lazarus and Shep working with them. They also serve no narrative purpose whatsoever in this, they're just there to provide human mooks to shoot at and nothing they do has anything to do with making the control ending possible.

And then look at the comics as well. They're definitely changing things in there too. 

Right now, it seems SuperMac is content to make them mustache twirling bad-guys.

exactly. i think we know that if cerberus were to actually exist there wouldnt be so many, if any, blunders like there has been. im not saying they wouldnt have been indoced eventually but the absurd levels of absolute fail would never get as high

I think the level of blunders that we get are, for the most part, kept pretty constrained to the games. That and the unlinear writing.

I personally think the Cerberus in ME2 and the comics was the best. It's how I view them.

[RabbitWrath]

Even with how it all ended .. I would say on some level yes they was .. well TIM was more so .. but for the most part they was doing what had to be done ... then the thing with TIM and what he did to himself caused chaos withing the group and that lead to the other stuff they was doing .. the check and balance that was in place was gone. So they was not the same towards the end of ME3.

[In Exile]

AlanC9 wrote...
The other difference is that Sanctuary was about accomplishing something useful. But the guys behind Dachau also thought they were doing something useful, of course. So you're right that morally they're exactly the same

People keep saying this, but I'm not seeing it. Cerberus says it got to control husks, but we don't see them ever using or controlling husks, and when the reapers attacked Sanctuary, they weren't able to prevent it. 

[MassivelyEffective0730]

In Exile wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
The other difference is that Sanctuary was about accomplishing something useful. But the guys behind Dachau also thought they were doing something useful, of course. So you're right that morally they're exactly the same

People keep saying this, but I'm not seeing it. Cerberus says it got to control husks, but we don't see them ever using or controlling husks, and when the reapers attacked Sanctuary, they weren't able to prevent it. 

Well they did it. As for the Reapers attacking Sanctuary... Do you really think the Cerberus would be able to override control from Reaper troops that are presently attacking? Something else we've noticed: All of the husks that Cerberus can control are created by Cerberus.

[In Exile]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Well they did it.

Except they didn't, since we don't see them controlling husks.

As for the Reapers attacking Sanctuary... Do you really think the Cerberus would be able to override control from Reaper troops that are presently attacking?

You mean, it has absolutely no military application ever?

[Bourne Endeavor]

In Exile wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
The other difference is that Sanctuary was about accomplishing something useful. But the guys behind Dachau also thought they were doing something useful, of course. So you're right that morally they're exactly the same

People keep saying this, but I'm not seeing it. Cerberus says it got to control husks, but we don't see them ever using or controlling husks, and when the reapers attacked Sanctuary, they weren't able to prevent it. 

Unfortunately, the plot arc was dropped the instant we complete Sanctuary, never to mentioned again. Instead of making it a compelling twist that may actually foreshadow Control, BioWare opted to push the narrative into a "showdown with Cerberus!" finale and close the book on them. A shame really. Sanctuary was quite interesting.

[KaiserShep]

Controlling the reapers' monsters would be incredibly useful on the battlefield, as it would effectively cripple their ability to reap entire worlds. To that end, it would've been great if this could've been implemented to by lots of time to regroup and rebuild. After all, while the reapers themselves are big high-powered killbots, they can only work on large scale. They wouldn't be able to do much against hidden enemies without monsters that can crawl into the confined spaces to find them, which would only be harder if those monsters are directed back at them. It's too bad that the principle behind their idea to control them goes well beyond being reasonable. As it is, Sanctuary was ultimately a failure. Their goal was to control the reapers themselves, and they couldn't do it. GIven the state of the galaxy, they wouldn't have time to research it anyway. After the Sanctuary facility was destroyed, it's not as if they had anything left to use to move forward in their search for their own method of controlling them, so what does TIM do? He runs to the Citadel and insists that he can control them. Indoctrination makes people do crazy things. Things got pretty simplified in the writing at this point. Sanctuary could've been more intriguing, but it was simply written to be monstrous.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 10 août 2013 - 03:43 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

In Exile wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Well they did it.

Except they didn't, since we don't see them controlling husks.

Except, they did. The story says they did. The lore states they did. Many characters acknowledge that Cerberus controlled husks. I agree, Sanctuary relied too much on telling us what happened instead of actually showing us.

But that's more of a problem with the game than anything else.

As for the Reapers attacking Sanctuary... Do you really think the Cerberus would be able to override control from Reaper troops that are presently attacking?

You mean, it has absolutely no military application ever?

If you can actually control the Reapers themselves, do you really need a military application?

Also, the project wasn't refined. It wasn't perfected. It was a proof of concept. I really can't speak as to whether or not it would work on a long-term scale, but you're saying that since it wasn't perfected in the beginning, it's inherently flawed.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

In Exile wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
The other difference is that Sanctuary was about accomplishing something useful. But the guys behind Dachau also thought they were doing something useful, of course. So you're right that morally they're exactly the same

People keep saying this, but I'm not seeing it. Cerberus says it got to control husks, but we don't see them ever using or controlling husks, and when the reapers attacked Sanctuary, they weren't able to prevent it. 

Unfortunately, the plot arc was dropped the instant we complete Sanctuary, never to mentioned again. Instead of making it a compelling twist that may actually foreshadow Control, BioWare opted to push the narrative into a "showdown with Cerberus!" finale and close the book on them. A shame really. Sanctuary was quite interesting.

Indeed, very much so. As I've said, Sanctuary is in the part of the game where BW is more concerned with wrapping up loose ends than actually telling a compelling story.

[In Exile]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...
Except, they did. The story says they did. The lore states they did. Many characters acknowledge that Cerberus controlled husks. I agree, Sanctuary relied too much on telling us what happened instead of actually showing us.

Characters say a lot of things. The only characters that said they could control husks were cerberus characters, at one location. Don't buy it.

If you can actually control the Reapers themselves, do you really need a military application?

Seeing as how you apparently can't control their footsoldiers when a reaper is around, extrapolating to "we can control the reapers" is reaching for new depths of incompetence, even for cerberus. 

Also, the project wasn't refined. It wasn't perfected. It was a proof of concept. I really can't speak as to whether or not it would work on a long-term scale, but you're saying that since it wasn't perfected in the beginning, it's inherently flawed. 

Given the scale of refugees that were murdered for absolutely no beneficial application in fighting the reapers, saying it's a failure is being unduly flattering and optimisitc. 

[MassivelyEffective0730]

In Exile wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...
Except, they did. The story says they did. The lore states they did. Many characters acknowledge that Cerberus controlled husks. I agree, Sanctuary relied too much on telling us what happened instead of actually showing us.

Characters say a lot of things. The only characters that said they could control husks were cerberus characters, at one location. Don't buy it.

I do buy it. Completely. Hackett, not that I trust him, acknoweldges it. Shepard acknowledges it to TIM. 

It happened. Cerberus managed to create a rough method of controlling Reaper forces.

If you can actually control the Reapers themselves, do you really need a military application?

Seeing as how you apparently can't control their footsoldiers when a reaper is around, extrapolating to "we can control the reapers" is reaching for new depths of incompetence, even for cerberus. 

That's not incompetence. That's actually pretty incredible that they managed to get that far. 

To actually have had Cerberus on our side during the war... genius.

Also, the project wasn't refined. It wasn't perfected. It was a proof of concept. I really can't speak as to whether or not it would work on a long-term scale, but you're saying that since it wasn't perfected in the beginning, it's inherently flawed. 

Given the scale of refugees that were murdered for absolutely no beneficial application in fighting the reapers, saying it's a failure is being unduly flattering and optimisitc. 

There was a beneficial application that had the rough concept proven. I don't agree with the long-term goal or it's validity, but imagine if instead of trying to control the Reapers, it was designed to find an exploitable weakness (ala Saren and Sovereign) of indoctrination. That might change things up a bit. A lot in fact.

If only Cerberus wasn't indoctrinated...

[CynicalShep]

See, MassivelyEffective, there is only one thing I never quite understood about you. I know about your distrust and dislike of the Alliance, which is somewhat understandable. Why the Hackett hate, though? The man was about the only good thing that ever happened to the Alliance apart from Shepard. I'm sure the Alliance would have been much better if he had more power. He was willing to get his hands dirty and is the only one other than Anderson that took your warnings about the Reapers seriously and at least tried to prepare for them. Udina, who screwed you over multiple times, opposed you in both ME1 and ME2 and never believed you until the Reapers attacked is higher in your book. Do explain, please.

Modifié par CynicalShep, 10 août 2013 - 09:56 .

[sr2josh]

Steelcan wrote...

Akuze was carried out by Alliance scientists (called that by Hackett, while Cerberus was part of the Alliance) Pragia was rogue.

But overall, Cerberus and TIM decided to prosecute their war with the Reapers in a different way than Shepard and they succeeded in finding a way to Control the Reapers. They had achieved their goal , but TIM stuck Reaper tech in his head.

In the end though they don't need vindication. Let their actions speak for themselves. it just depends what you see their actions as.

They only succeded in controlling the husks of the galaxy's races but never got close to controlling the Reapers themselves.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Makai81 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Akuze was carried out by Alliance scientists (called that by Hackett, while Cerberus was part of the Alliance) Pragia was rogue.

But overall, Cerberus and TIM decided to prosecute their war with the Reapers in a different way than Shepard and they succeeded in finding a way to Control the Reapers. They had achieved their goal , but TIM stuck Reaper tech in his head.

In the end though they don't need vindication. Let their actions speak for themselves. it just depends what you see their actions as.

They only succeded in controlling the husks of the galaxy's races but never got close to controlling the Reapers themselves.

It was a step in the direction of stopping the Reapers. I don't agree with the ends to stop the Reapers, but as Steelcan said, I view their actions in a more positive manner than most.