692 réponses à ce sujet

[MassivelyEffective0730]

CynicalShep wrote...

See, MassivelyEffective, there is only one thing I never quite understood about you. I know about your distrust and dislike of the Alliance, which is somewhat understandable. Why the Hackett hate, though? The man was about the only good thing that ever happened to the Alliance apart from Shepard. I'm sure the Alliance would have been much better if he had more power. He was willing to get his hands dirty and is the only one other than Anderson that took your warnings about the Reapers seriously and at least tried to prepare for them. Udina, who screwed you over multiple times, opposed you in both ME1 and ME2 and never believed you until the Reapers attacked is higher in your book. Do explain, please.

His annoying white-knight attitude in ME3. My inability to be bitter about the alliance and being able to  His questioning my Shepard's integrity after Arrival (after I basically told him to tell the alliance to **** off if they tried to call me to return to Earth). General unsatisfaction with how I'm made to be his errand boy in ME1. General rejection of non-Shepard authority during the Reaper war: my Shepard isn't calling anyone sir and he's not taking orders from anyone (In headcanon, Shepard is the one tasking Hackett with building the Crucible and holding the line while Shepard rallies the galaxy). General displeasure over the lack of alliance preparedness and use of my image to promote their cause while sweeping me under the rug. Disillusionment and dismissive contempt for the alliance in general that boils down to simply having someone to dislike. General rage that I was the alliance and the Council's monkey boy that was used to save them when times were tough, then hung out to dry when politics when I became an 'inconvenience'.

That's another reason why my Shepard respects Cerberus so much; despite them bringing him back to life, and despite their extreme methods, they don't come running to him to fix every single problem in the galaxy. Yes, he has to clean up some other mistakes like Overlord, but in the end, he views TIM in the way that the Urdnot Shaman viewed Warlord Okeer:

"He was a madman, but he was a madman with a plan. And that was more than any other idiots had."

Udina is an **** yes; I never really stated he was higher in my book. Yes, I make him councilor, because we need a politician who can work out issues and knows the game, not some dusty old war dog incapable of seeing the world without his military-tinted glasses. That said, I do sympathize with Udina's desperation in ME3, even if I think he acted rashly. I don't think he was indoctrinated. I rather think he was trying to force action from the Council, who were pretty being obstinate (again) over the war-effort. In the end, I really wish he had patience and let me do my job. I wish he let me fix the mistakes that the alliance and the Council made, a Council he was part of no less.

I did tell him to tell the Council to shove their Spectre reinstatement up their ass.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 10 août 2013 - 11:37 .

[Xilizhra]

Cerberus was vindicated on their belief in Shepard's necessity. Nothing more. I'm not sure what else would have been, to be honest.

The galaxy would have been a lot better off without TIM's planet-sized ego.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Xilizhra wrote...

Cerberus was vindicated on their belief in Shepard's necessity. Nothing more. I'm not sure what else would have been, to be honest.

The galaxy would have been a lot better off without TIM's planet-sized ego.

The galaxy would have also been better off if the Asari hadn't hidden their Prothean beacon. More so, in fact.

[Xilizhra]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Cerberus was vindicated on their belief in Shepard's necessity. Nothing more. I'm not sure what else would have been, to be honest.

The galaxy would have been a lot better off without TIM's planet-sized ego.

The galaxy would have also been better off if the Asari hadn't hidden their Prothean beacon. More so, in fact.

Well, that was a non sequitur if I've ever heard one.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Xilizhra wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Cerberus was vindicated on their belief in Shepard's necessity. Nothing more. I'm not sure what else would have been, to be honest.

The galaxy would have been a lot better off without TIM's planet-sized ego.

The galaxy would have also been better off if the Asari hadn't hidden their Prothean beacon. More so, in fact.

Well, that was a non sequitur if I've ever heard one.

You stated that you think the galaxy is better off without Cerberus.

I stated that I think the galaxy is better off without the Asari's arrogance.

[Xilizhra]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Cerberus was vindicated on their belief in Shepard's necessity. Nothing more. I'm not sure what else would have been, to be honest.

The galaxy would have been a lot better off without TIM's planet-sized ego.

The galaxy would have also been better off if the Asari hadn't hidden their Prothean beacon. More so, in fact.

Well, that was a non sequitur if I've ever heard one.

You stated that you think the galaxy is better off without Cerberus.

I stated that I think the galaxy is better off without the Asari's arrogance.

And that had what to do with the topic, exactly? Do you have a reply that addresses any of my points, or are you just flamebaiting?

Of course, it's possible that it wasn't TIM who was stupid, but rather, indoctrination that made him stupid. I'm just unsure of the exact timeline of his indoctrination and how strong it was at any given time.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 10 août 2013 - 11:58 .

[CynicalShep]

@ MassivelyEffective
I've never seen him as a white knight, I'm not sure I know what you mean. In the end, he is the one who mobilized the fleet in hours to save the day in ME1 in spite of not seeing any evidence of reaper existence and as far as I remember was pretty much the only one who made preparations for war pre-ME3. Surely his side quests in ME1 were annoying but you get a better insight into what type of leader he is when you get the renegade mission at the end of the game. Sounds like your dislike for him is just an extension of the one you have for SA, coupled with the fact that he was an authoritative figure and you don't really like taking orders. And you have more than enough errand missions from Cerberus in ME2, especially if you have the DLCs, and they are generally bigger f*ckups than a crashed probe or a stolen nuke (whose new owner conveniently knew that you will come to defuse). Udina is your biggest problem, willingly or otherwise, because he is the one that dismissed you and shoved you under the rug. When sh*t hit the fan he panicked and tried to stage a pointless coup. Hackett, on the other hand, is the one who kept the Alliance of your back in ME2 (if you played LotSB you'll know what I'm talking about) and his only failing, which is arguable, is calling you to Earth after Arrival. He doesn't arrest you, he tells you to come when you're done. The fact that you're on Earth at the beginning of ME3 regardless of what you said is a ball in writer's court.
So as far as I can understand he is more or less of a scapegoat, a figure head responsible for Alliance's failings, no? 
If so, remember that the Alliance wasn't a monarchy and he didn't have nearly as much pull as you imply.

Modifié par CynicalShep, 10 août 2013 - 11:59 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

CynicalShep wrote...

@ MassivelyEffective
I've never seen him as a white knight, I'm not sure I know what you mean. In the end, he is the one who mobilized the fleet in hours to save the day in ME1 in spite of not seeing any evidence of reaper existence and as far as I remember was pretty much the only one who made preparations for war pre-ME3. Surely his side quests in ME1 were annoying but you get a better insight into what type of leader he is when you get the renegade mission at the end of the game. Sounds like your dislike for him is just an extension of the one you have for SA, coupled with the fact that he was an authoritative figure and you don't really like taking orders. And you have more than enough errand missions from Cerberus in ME2, especially if you have the DLCs, and they are generally bigger f*ckups than a crashed probe or a stolen nuke (whose new owner conveniently knew that you will come to defuse). Udina is your biggest problem, willingly or otherwise, because he is the one that dismissed you and shoved you under the rug. When sh*t hit the fan he panicked and tried to stage a pointless coup. Hackett, on the other hand, is the one who kept the Alliance of your back in ME2 (if you played LotSB you'll know what I'm talking about) and his only failing, which is arguable, is calling you to Earth after Arrival. He doesn't arrest you, he tells you to come when you're done. The fact that you're on Earth at the beginning of ME3 regardless of what you said is a ball in writer's court.
So as far as I can understand he is more or less of a scapegoat, a figure head responsible for Alliance's failings, no?

Yep. My Shepard holds enough respect for him to engineer a politcal scandal for Hackett as a means to force him to resign, and promptly recruits him into his new Cerberus. Along with Petrovsky, Shepard is putting him on commission to build up... Phoenix's (the new Cerberus) military arm. It's going to be small and elite. 

I like to think that Shepard was eventually arrested by the alliance in between ME2 and ME3. It rather sucks from an RP'ing perspective: My Shepard would never willingly have returned to them.

Otherwise, I think the lost nuke was as big as any disaster that Cerberus had.

As for the actual Cerberus disaster's in ME2... what were they? Overlord? That's really it. Firewalker was deliberately attacked by the Geth; Lazarus was a success. The team on the derelict Reaper was indoctrinated by said Reaper and killed, though it fundamentally succeeded in gaining information about the Reapers as well as recovering the IFF of the Reaper. Teltin facility from Jack's days went rogue.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 11 août 2013 - 12:09 .

[dreamgazer]

Anyone else hearing Dashboard Confessional in their head whenever they see the title of this thread?

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Xilizhra wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Cerberus was vindicated on their belief in Shepard's necessity. Nothing more. I'm not sure what else would have been, to be honest.

The galaxy would have been a lot better off without TIM's planet-sized ego.

The galaxy would have also been better off if the Asari hadn't hidden their Prothean beacon. More so, in fact.

Well, that was a non sequitur if I've ever heard one.

You stated that you think the galaxy is better off without Cerberus.

I stated that I think the galaxy is better off without the Asari's arrogance.

And that had what to do with the topic, exactly? Do you have a reply that addresses any of my points, or are you just flamebaiting?

Of course, it's possible that it wasn't TIM who was stupid, but rather, indoctrination that made him stupid. I'm just unsure of the exact timeline of his indoctrination and how strong it was at any given time.

I'm not flamebaiting. I'm simply stating an opinion. Why do you think it's flamebaiting? You have no points to address. You didn't list any. You stated an opinion, a valid one, and that's it. There's nothing to really discuss about it.

So I stated my own opinion in response. No need to get all worked up over it.

[Xilizhra]

To elaborate further... Cerberus could have been an asset, but that's like saying the Japanese could have been an asset in WW2; it was just never on the cards given their behavior. They seemed like they might have been tractable in ME2, but their true colors were definitely foreshadowed. The fundamental problems of an unaccountable extremist group operating with no oversight whatsoever were exacerbated by its leader's rather unsurprising hunger for power.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

dreamgazer wrote...

Anyone else hearing Dashboard Confessional in their head whenever they see the title of this thread?

Nope... Chris Carrabba is an odd relation to this.

I approve.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Xilizhra wrote...

To elaborate further... Cerberus could have been an asset, but that's like saying the Japanese could have been an asset in WW2; it was just never on the cards given their behavior. They seemed like they might have been tractable in ME2, but their true colors were definitely foreshadowed.

 

That depends on how you identify and interpret their true colors. Without starting yet another argument on this, I think we're going to just have to disagree on what we think Cerberus is all about.

The fundamental problems of an unaccountable extremist group operating with no oversight whatsoever were exacerbated by its leader's rather unsurprising hunger for power.

I'd say it was more of his ambition for Cerberus goals (which were ultimately perverted by the Reapers) and lack of oversight over his own group. I admire TIM a lot, but damn if he wasn't a terrible manager and administrator. 

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 11 août 2013 - 12:15 .

[dreamgazer]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

Anyone else hearing Dashboard Confessional in their head whenever they see the title of this thread?

Nope... Chris Carrabba is an odd relation to this.

I approve.

"Vindicated.
I am selfish, I am wrong.
I am right, I swear I'm right, swear I knew it all along. 
And I am flawed, but I am cleaning up so well.
I am seeing in me now the things you swore you saw yourself."

[Xilizhra]

That depends on how you identify and interpret their true colors. Without starting yet another argument on this, I think we're going to just have to disagree on what we think Cerberus is all about.

After ME3, I frankly don't think we have to. It was proven beyond a doubt that it was TIM's instrument for his dominance first, human dominance in general second (keeping mind "Cerberus is humanity"), everyone else getting the shaft. If you're generous, you might be able to switch the priority of the first two.

I'd say it was more of his ambition for Cerberus goals (which were ultimately perverted by the Reapers) and lack of oversight over his own group. I admire TIM a lot, but damn if he wasn't a terrible manager and administrator.

Which is sort of a horrible weakness when you're in the business of administrating this thing with, again, no oversight whatsoever, as well as isolating yourself in numerous ways from your subordinates so feedback from below has little chance of hitting anything meaningful either.

[o Ventus]

I'm still not seeing the "dominance" angle. Advancing humanity is not the same thing as ruling over or oppressing everyone else.

[Xilizhra]

o Ventus wrote...

I'm still not seeing the "dominance" angle. Advancing humanity is not the same thing as ruling over or oppressing everyone else.

I'm using TIM's own words, where he uses "dominance" freely. Even in ME2, where he talks about the Collector base giving "human dominance over the Reapers and beyond."

[o Ventus]

Xilizhra wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

I'm still not seeing the "dominance" angle. Advancing humanity is not the same thing as ruling over or oppressing everyone else.

I'm using TIM's own words, where he uses "dominance" freely. Even in ME2, where he talks about the Collector base giving "human dominance over the Reapers and beyond."

I don't remember that line at all. Given, I haven't played ME2 in a vey long time.

[Xilizhra]

o Ventus wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

I'm still not seeing the "dominance" angle. Advancing humanity is not the same thing as ruling over or oppressing everyone else.

I'm using TIM's own words, where he uses "dominance" freely. Even in ME2, where he talks about the Collector base giving "human dominance over the Reapers and beyond."

I don't remember that line at all. Given, I haven't played ME2 in a vey long time.

After that line:
Shepard: "Human dominance, or just Cerberus?"
TIM: "Strength for Cerberus is strength for every human. Cerberus is humanity."

[HellbirdIV]

Xilizhra wrote...

TIM: "Strength for Cerberus is strength for every human. Cerberus is humanity."

I just wanna reiterate that this is the worst thing about Cerberus; They can't get past the notion that they should enforce their will on humanity "for the greater good", with no regard of what the rest of humanity actually wants...

[Xilizhra]

HellbirdIV wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

TIM: "Strength for Cerberus is strength for every human. Cerberus is humanity."

I just wanna reiterate that this is the worst thing about Cerberus; They can't get past the notion that they should enforce their will on humanity "for the greater good", with no regard of what the rest of humanity actually wants...

For all their prattle about advancing humanity, individual humans certainly seem to be their victims with great frequency.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Xilizhra wrote...

That depends on how you identify and interpret their true colors. Without starting yet another argument on this, I think we're going to just have to disagree on what we think Cerberus is all about.

After ME3, I frankly don't think we have to. It was proven beyond a doubt that it was TIM's instrument for his dominance first, human dominance in general second (keeping mind "Cerberus is humanity"), everyone else getting the shaft. If you're generous, you might be able to switch the priority of the first two.

Yes. We'll have to disagree. Because I don't interpret TIM, or Cerberus' actions prior to ME3 as being for those reasons at all. I never thought that Cerberus was out for TIM's own gain, or for Cerberus' dominance. 

I think those reasons came about after the Reapers started to dig into his brain. It's part of their divide and conquer method. 

The Reapers are responsible for ME3 Cerberus in my opinion. I think TIM's issue is that he disregarded the risks and it bit him in the ass when the Reapers dominated his mind, twisting and perverting his goals into something that would cause conflict for the purpose of division and conquering.

That's how I interpret it.

I'd say it was more of his ambition for Cerberus goals (which were ultimately perverted by the Reapers) and lack of oversight over his own group. I admire TIM a lot, but damn if he wasn't a terrible manager and administrator.

Which is sort of a horrible weakness when you're in the business of administrating this thing with, again, no oversight whatsoever, as well as isolating yourself in numerous ways from your subordinates so feedback from below has little chance of hitting anything meaningful either.

I think he relied too much on his project leaders to make their own judgements. He provided them with their funding and gave them their goal, and basically said 'screw all' to the risks. Some made far better judgments than others: Miranda Lawson or Dr. Cole for example. But this... wrecklessness proved to be his undoing as he became more and more ambitious (or desperate). I think the indoctrination set in when he made a goal for Cerberus to study it and find a means to exploit a weakness in it to use against the Reapers. Obviously, it backfired, probably because Cerberus didn't take the best precautions to ensure that indoctrination was avoided. Once indoctrination set in, that's when the goals and motivations began to change. The group that was to be humanity - and the galaxy's sword - became the knife in their back. 

[Xilizhra]

Yes. We'll have to disagree. Because I don't interpret TIM, or Cerberus' actions prior to ME3 as being for those reasons at all. I never thought that Cerberus was out for TIM's own gain, or for Cerberus' dominance.

I think those reasons came about after the Reapers started to dig into his brain. It's part of their divide and conquer method.

TIM explicitly said this back in ME2, as mentioned previously. Your interpretation is quite simply wrong.

I think he relied too much on his project leaders to make their own judgements. He provided them with their funding and gave them their goal, and basically said 'screw all' to the risks. Some made far better judgments than others: Miranda Lawson or Dr. Cole for example. But this... wrecklessness proved to be his undoing as he became more and more ambitious (or desperate). I think the indoctrination set in when he made a goal for Cerberus to study it and find a means to exploit a weakness in it to use against the Reapers. Obviously, it backfired, probably because Cerberus didn't take the best precautions to ensure that indoctrination was avoided. Once indoctrination set in, that's when the goals and motivations began to change. The group that was to be humanity - and the galaxy's sword - became the knife in their back.

As was inevitable given how they operated. The galaxy is well rid of the treacherous bastards, and they will never return.
I will say it's sort of a shame that Petrovsky gets so much wiggle room... oh well. I'm not going to stop doing the right thing just because it's convenient for an enemy. Perhaps I can nudge the Council into taking his case over away from the Alliance... or extradite him to Omega.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Xilizhra wrote...

Yes. We'll have to disagree. Because I don't interpret TIM, or Cerberus' actions prior to ME3 as being for those reasons at all. I never thought that Cerberus was out for TIM's own gain, or for Cerberus' dominance.

I think those reasons came about after the Reapers started to dig into his brain. It's part of their divide and conquer method.

TIM explicitly said this back in ME2, as mentioned previously. Your interpretation is quite simply wrong.

Not really. Can you tell me when the Reapers started to dig into his brain? I rather think my interpretation is fitting.

Perhaps he was ambitious for humanity. Perhaps he was a survivalist. Perhaps he did adopt extreme views. In the end, I can sympathize with those goals, even if I don't entirely agree with them. I do believe he truly wanted what was best for humanity. I do believe he was even willing to die for it. He did die for it, when my Shepard finally convinced him that he was damning humanity by standing in our way. His last act was to remove himself as a Reaper agent so that Shepard could save the galaxy from the Reapers.

I think he relied too much on his project leaders to make their own judgements. He provided them with their funding and gave them their goal, and basically said 'screw all' to the risks. Some made far better judgments than others: Miranda Lawson or Dr. Cole for example. But this... wrecklessness proved to be his undoing as he became more and more ambitious (or desperate). I think the indoctrination set in when he made a goal for Cerberus to study it and find a means to exploit a weakness in it to use against the Reapers. Obviously, it backfired, probably because Cerberus didn't take the best precautions to ensure that indoctrination was avoided. Once indoctrination set in, that's when the goals and motivations began to change. The group that was to be humanity - and the galaxy's sword - became the knife in their back.

As was inevitable given how they operated. The galaxy is well rid of the treacherous bastards, and they will never return.

Don't know what you're talking about. My Shepard is bringing them back himself with Miranda.

I will say it's sort of a shame that Petrovsky gets so much wiggle room... oh well. I'm not going to stop doing the right thing just because it's convenient for an enemy.

Perhaps I can nudge the Council into taking his case over away from the Alliance... or extradite him to Omega.

I hope Petrovsky actually learns some real value and reason this time around. I'm giving him another chance as one of my fleet commanders for the new Cerberus. Meanwhile, the Council system is going to be abolished in favor of a much more encompassing system that brings the species closer in a more liberally constructivist manner. No more power clubs for the big 3 races.

[Xilizhra]

Not really. Can you tell me when the Reapers started to dig into his brain? I rather think my interpretation is fitting.

The digging didn't change between the bit where the monolith zapped him, before Cerberus was even founded, and ME3. Of course, it's entirely possible that Cerberus' creation was motivated by Reaper corruption.

Perhaps he was ambitious for humanity. Perhaps he was a survivalist. Perhaps he did adopt extreme views. In the end, I can sympathize with those goals, even if I don't entirely agree with them. I do believe he truly wanted what was best for humanity. I do believe he was even willing to die for it. He did die for it, when my Shepard finally convinced him that he was damning humanity by standing in our way. His last act was to remove himself as a Reaper agent so that Shepard could save the galaxy from the Reapers.

He died as Saren did, and for the same reasons.

Don't know what you're talking about. My Shepard is bringing them back himself with Miranda.

No they won't. Thankfully, neither character was written in such a way that would allow for it. Miranda has wholly rejected Cerberus, as has Shepard. Your fantasy has little to nothing to do with the actual game or characters, any more than the various slashfics I've seen do.