692 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

I've never had my Renegade bar contain more than a tiny sliver.

[AresKeith]

Xilizhra wrote...

I've never had my Renegade bar contain more than a tiny sliver.

Then your missing out

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Xilizhra wrote...

I could quote how I think it's too naive, too simple, too moralistic, too simple, too childish, too ordinary, to black-and-white, too boring, too uninteresting, too predictable, too unsatisfactory, too absolute, too arrogant, too ignorant, too self-righteous, too unoriginal, too narrow, too blind, etc.

Oddly, Paragon Shepard isn't any of those to my knowledge. Where do you see this?

In White-Knight Paragons of Justice and Goodness. Namely Paragon Shepard.

He's all of those things in my opinion. Or does my opinion not count?

This applies to my Shepard. It applies to TIM. It applies to everyone I find interesting, real or fictional. It applies to me.

TIM was on the side of Hell.

No he wasn't. Only the Reapers were on the side of Hell. TIM was on always on the side of the angels. He just used the devil's methods to fight them. 

In that manner, that's why I view the Council as impediments to the very goal you're ascribing too. Listen to the Council at the beginning of ME3. They aren't coming together to face the threat. They're falling into their own shells to protect their own asses. They even denied the threat in ME2 when they could have united then.

Regrettably. But as a Spectre, I have a duty to the Council. Of course, frequently that involves me doing things better than they do, but I won't turn against them, not unless there's a truly popular revolt that would lead the galaxy better somehow. Which I seriously doubt would happen.

I don't have any duty, obligation, or care to follow a Council (or alliance) that would so blindly and stupidly sit back and wither in their own stagnant, complacent, and obliviously ignorant bubble while the galaxy is set burn by the Reapers.

They've proven they aren't up to the job. They're to be discarded as useless and unavailing. They're to be replaced by something that can actually do the job of governing, and protecting, right.

I'm against them from the onset. They live off in La La Land as total space cadets. Why are they worth serving? 

I don't think they are.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 11 août 2013 - 02:45 .

[Nole]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

WittingEight65 wrote...

You mean bipolar?

Does that mean that you can only be an absolute for either side?

Isn't that the idea?

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Xilizhra wrote...

I've never had my Renegade bar contain more than a tiny sliver.

Well that sucks for you. Sounds really boring.

[Xilizhra]

AresKeith wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I've never had my Renegade bar contain more than a tiny sliver.

Then your missing out

Hardly. Most Renegade options make me feel ill. There are only a few exceptions, and... actually, I think all but one of them are interrupts; I tentatively give TIM the Collector base, but aside from that, all I do is talk back to the Blue Suns recruiter, shoot the Weyrloc clanspeaker, headbutt Uvenk, and tell Aethyta that no one messes with Liara.

[shingara]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...


I'm sorry, but you're false on many points. The games, the comics, and the novels contradict you.

Cerberus wasn't created until after the First Contact War. This is shown in Evolutions. TIM even tells Saren to prepare the Turians for the same challenge that TIM will prepare humanity for. This is all in Evolutions.

 Prey tell why would the alliance create a black ops for an enemy that didnt even exist yet, they were created with the first contact war, not before not after and they were created by the alliance, Kahuko tells you this and so does Anderson.

Modifié par shingara, 11 août 2013 - 02:50 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

WittingEight65 wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

WittingEight65 wrote...

You mean bipolar?

Does that mean that you can only be an absolute for either side?

Isn't that the idea?

No. 

You can do good things for practical reasons, just as you can do bad things for practical reasons.

My Shepard doesn't make very many decisions based on "it was the right thing to do because it felt right". He based it off it being the right thing to do because it made the most sense and had the most overall benefit.

Not every decision was based that way. Not every decision can be. But it's rather pointless to blindly do something based on some moral code that might make you unsavvy to the option that works best.

[Xilizhra]

In White-Knight Paragons of Justice and Goodness. Namely Paragon Shepard.

He's all of those things in my opinion. Or does my opinion not count?

I'm trying to figure out why you say so.

I don't have any duty, obligation, or care to follow a Council (or alliance) that would so blindly and stupidly sit back and wither in their own stagnant, complacent, and obliviously ignorant bubble while the galaxy is set burn by the Reapers.

I go independent in ME2 when it would serve the galaxy's needs most, and go back to the Alliance in ME3 when that's for the best. Their complacency is annoying, but that's not my responsibility; my responsibility is to do the best for everyone that I can.

They've proven they aren't up to the job. They're to be discarded as useless and unavailing. They're to be replaced by something that can actually do the job of governing, and protecting, right.

They certainly did better than Cerberus. They may require reforms, but I'm hardly surprised that they weren't set up to fight Reapers, and I'll help rebuild them along with the rest of the galaxy... and this time, the Reapers are mine.

Well that sucks for you. Sounds really boring.

Not at all.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

shingara wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...


I'm sorry, but you're false on many points. The games, the comics, and the novels contradict you.

Cerberus wasn't created until after the First Contact War. This is shown in Evolutions. TIM even tells Saren to prepare the Turians for the same challenge that TIM will prepare humanity for. This is all in Evolutions.

 Prey tell why would the alliance create a black ops for an enemy that didnt even exist yet

... Because the alliance didn't create Cerberus. TIM did. And the enemy did in fact exist. It wasn't known that they existed to the vast majority of the current crop of galactic civilization. And among other reasons, this is why TIM created Cerberus.

This is in the Evolutions comic. Have you read the Evolutions comic? I think you should read the Evolutions comic.

there were created with the first contact war, not before not after.

They were created after the First Contact War. It's in the Evolutions comic. I think you should read the Evolutions comic.

and they were created by the alliance, Kahuko tells you this and so does Anderson.

They were created by TIM. What Kahoku and Anderson tell you is retconned later by Mass Effect 2. It is retconned by Mass Effect Redemption. It is retconned by Mass Effect Evolutions. It is retconned by Mass Effect Ascension. It is retconned by Mass Effect Retribution.

I think you should play Mass Effect 2. I think you should read Redemption. I think you should read Evolutions. I think you should read Ascension. I think you should read Retribution.

[Alien Number Six]

During the war in Iraq I dug up a mass grave. Several of the bodies we discovered where children. I can tell you from personal experience that wiping out whole groups of people for research, political reasons, or you just feel superior to them is wrong on so many levels. The things that Cerburus did to people on Horizen and Omega are unforgivable. Admiral Hackett is right when he tells you no matter what Cerburus discovered "The cost was too high." Cerburus is trash., So take out the trash.

Modifié par Alien Number Six, 11 août 2013 - 03:26 .

[shingara]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

shingara wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...


I'm sorry, but you're false on many points. The games, the comics, and the novels contradict you.

Cerberus wasn't created until after the First Contact War. This is shown in Evolutions. TIM even tells Saren to prepare the Turians for the same challenge that TIM will prepare humanity for. This is all in Evolutions.

 Prey tell why would the alliance create a black ops for an enemy that didnt even exist yet

... Because the alliance didn't create Cerberus. TIM did. And the enemy did in fact exist. It wasn't known that they existed to the vast majority of the current crop of galactic civilization. And among other reasons, this is why TIM created Cerberus.

This is in the Evolutions comic. Have you read the Evolutions comic? I think you should read the Evolutions comic.

there were created with the first contact war, not before not after.

They were created after the First Contact War. It's in the Evolutions comic. I think you should read the Evolutions comic.

and they were created by the alliance, Kahuko tells you this and so does Anderson.

They were created by TIM. What Kahoku and Anderson tell you is retconned later by Mass Effect 2. It is retconned by Mass Effect Redemption. It is retconned by Mass Effect Evolutions. It is retconned by Mass Effect Ascension. It is retconned by Mass Effect Retribution.

I think you should play Mass Effect 2. I think you should read Redemption. I think you should read Evolutions. I think you should read Ascension. I think you should read Retribution.

 Ow my, shanxi was the first time cerberus came to knowledge, with TIM, Eva coré and Ben Hislop. after shanxi they went rogue. BTW do you know the definition of a black ops ?

 The alliance created them, stated by Kahoku who is subsiquently killed in ME1 and by anderson. The fact it went rogue is how they became known thus no longer a black ops.

[Nole]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

WittingEight65 wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

WittingEight65 wrote...

You mean bipolar?

Does that mean that you can only be an absolute for either side?

Isn't that the idea?

No. 

You can do good things for practical reasons, just as you can do bad things for practical reasons.

My Shepard doesn't make very many decisions based on "it was the right thing to do because it felt right". He based it off it being the right thing to do because it made the most sense and had the most overall benefit.

Not every decision was based that way. Not every decision can be. But it's rather pointless to blindly do something based on some moral code that might make you unsavvy to the option that works best.

Well yeah, in your head canon.

It doesn't change that Shepard seems really inconsistent if you play a paragade.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

[quote]Xilizhra wrote...

[quote]In White-Knight Paragons of Justice and Goodness. Namely Paragon Shepard.

He's all of those things in my opinion. Or does my opinion not count?[/quote]
I'm trying to figure out why you say so.

[/quote]

Because, in my perspective, he is.

Because I have a different perspective than you.

People have other perspectives from you.

Marvelous concept isn't it?

[quote]I don't have any duty, obligation, or care to follow a Council (or alliance) that would so blindly and stupidly sit back and wither in their own stagnant, complacent, and obliviously ignorant bubble while the galaxy is set burn by the Reapers.[/quote]
I go independent in ME2 when it would serve the galaxy's needs most, and go back to the Alliance in ME3 when that's for the best. Their complacency is annoying, but that's not my responsibility; my responsibility is to do the best for everyone that I can.
[/quote]

And I join Cerberus because our goals are aligned, and with some insight, so is a lot of our philosophies. And when I look at the underlying logic of many of their methods, I even come to understand those too.

I'm forced by circumstance to work with the alliance in ME3. I really don't want too, but I don't want the galaxy to burn either. 

I don't care if it's my responsibility or not to challenge their complacency, I'm going to do it. And I'm going to beat the Reapers, even if it kills many, many, many people. Obviously, that's undesirable, but if it has to happen to beat the Reapers, then it happens.

[quote]
[quote]They've proven they aren't up to the job. They're to be discarded as useless and unavailing. They're to be replaced by something that can actually do the job of governing, and protecting, right.[/quote]
They certainly did better than Cerberus. They may require reforms, but I'm hardly surprised that they weren't set up to fight Reapers, and I'll help rebuild them along with the rest of the galaxy... and this time, the Reapers are mine.

[/quote]

Cerberus never tried to govern the galaxy. 

The Council needs to be dismantled into a more republican democracy for all the races, rather than being a power club for the top dog races to hoard the power.

And my new Cerberus will be using the Reaper tech they salvage to subtlely enforce this. 

This galaxy is going to become a Republic whether they like it or not.

[quote]
[quote]Well that sucks for you. Sounds really boring.[/quote]
Not at all.[/quote]

Whatever tickles your pickle.

We're all different. That's the beauty of different viewpoints!

[Nashtalia]

i would say that with out Cerebrus [more specifically the Lazarus Project], if it weren't for them...i would have been dead, after that Collector sneak attack...and Liara would have been mourning for me for the rest of her life

[MassivelyEffective0730]

WittingEight65 wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

WittingEight65 wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

WittingEight65 wrote...

You mean bipolar?

Does that mean that you can only be an absolute for either side?

Isn't that the idea?

No. 

You can do good things for practical reasons, just as you can do bad things for practical reasons.

My Shepard doesn't make very many decisions based on "it was the right thing to do because it felt right". He based it off it being the right thing to do because it made the most sense and had the most overall benefit.

Not every decision was based that way. Not every decision can be. But it's rather pointless to blindly do something based on some moral code that might make you unsavvy to the option that works best.

Well yeah, in your head canon.

It doesn't change that Shepard seems really inconsistent if you play a paragade.

I don't play as a paragade. I play a neutral balanced Shepard. 

Please don't enforce your morality on me. I don't subscribe to it. I have a system that works for me, and I'd prefer to stick with it.

[Xilizhra]

Because, in my perspective, he is.

Because I have a different perspective than you.

People have other perspectives from you.

Marvelous concept isn't it?

May I have specific reasons?

Cerberus never tried to govern the galaxy.

The Council needs to be dismantled into a more republican democracy for all the races, rather than being a power club for the top dog races to hoard the power.

And my new Cerberus will be using the Reaper tech they salvage to subtlely enforce this.

This galaxy is going to become a Republic whether they like it or not.

Um. Turians and salarians don't do democracy, volus are beholden to the turians... I have serious doubts that this would work, especially not if you're indoctrinating people into it.

Of course, the irony is that I actually accomplished Cerberus' goals.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Nashtalia wrote...

i would say that with out Cerebrus [more specifically the Lazarus Project], if it weren't for them...i would have been dead, after that Collector sneak attack...and Liara would have been mourning for me for the rest of her life

Sucks for Liara. She never had a chance with me anyway. Creepy, stalking, annoying, blue-alien chick... 

And if I hadn't died, I'd have never met Miranda.

Some things are worth dying for though. Like Miranda. My Shepard considers his death the best thing that ever happened to him.

[Nole]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

WittingEight65 wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

WittingEight65 wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

WittingEight65 wrote...

You mean bipolar?

Does that mean that you can only be an absolute for either side?

Isn't that the idea?

No. 

You can do good things for practical reasons, just as you can do bad things for practical reasons.

My Shepard doesn't make very many decisions based on "it was the right thing to do because it felt right". He based it off it being the right thing to do because it made the most sense and had the most overall benefit.

Not every decision was based that way. Not every decision can be. But it's rather pointless to blindly do something based on some moral code that might make you unsavvy to the option that works best.

Well yeah, in your head canon.

It doesn't change that Shepard seems really inconsistent if you play a paragade.

I don't play as a paragade. I play a neutral balanced Shepard. 

Please don't enforce your morality on me. I don't subscribe to it. I have a system that works for me, and I'd prefer to stick with it.

How does that work for you in ME3?

[Nashtalia]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Nashtalia wrote...

i would say that with out Cerebrus [more specifically the Lazarus Project], if it weren't for them...i would have been dead, after that Collector sneak attack...and Liara would have been mourning for me for the rest of her life

Sucks for Liara. She never had a chance with me anyway. Creepy, stalking, annoying, blue-alien chick... 

And if I hadn't died, I'd have never met Miranda.

Some things are worth dying for though. Like Miranda. My Shepard considers his death the best thing that ever happened to him.

in my time-line Liara was my L.I. [she was love at first sight when i first saw her, *ME1*] and she felt the same way i did

and i did continue with her *Liara* [on ME2] despite it took me to get through the Shadow Broker time-line, and will be my only one when it comes to that Special Someone...

[In Exile]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...
It happened. Cerberus managed to create a rough method of controlling Reaper forces.

Except for the part where they never use it and are massacred to the last person, before having their indoctrinated leader almost singlehandedly win the war for reapers. On the list of miserable, pathetic failures, this is about as close to the top as you can get. 

That's not incompetence. That's actually pretty incredible that they managed to get that far. 

To actually have had Cerberus on our side during the war... genius.

It's a complete and utter failure. It was never used against the reapers, apparently can't work if an actual reaper is present (i.e., all the time in any military encounter), and according to you only works if you create the husks yourself. 

It's like an auto-lose button that cost millions of lives and resources. 

There was a beneficial application that had the rough concept proven.

Except they didn't prove anything, since they didn't show they could control a husk under reaper control with a reaper present. 

I don't agree with the long-term goal or it's validity, but imagine if instead of trying to control the Reapers, it was designed to find an exploitable weakness (ala Saren and Sovereign) of indoctrination. That might change things up a bit. A lot in fact.

Imagine if wearing perfume caused the reapers to spontaneously combust. That'd be amazing! 

As it stands, right now this "technology" is useless. So, no, fantasy wanking at what it could do it if wasn't completely useless in every respect doesn't somehow turn it useful. 

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Alien Number Six wrote...

During the war in Iraq I dug up a mass grave. Several of the bodies we discovered where children. I can tell you from personal experience that wiping out whole groups of people for research, political reasons, or you just feel superior to them is wrong on so many levels.

Brother. I'm saying this as a fellow veteran. Believe me, I know what you went through. In February 2008' 'The deadliest month of OEF' (which has now unfortunately been surpassed by August of 2011), I was attached as a HUMINT Collector with the 173rd in Northeastern Afghanistan. We were in the Korangal Valley. We came across a tribe that had been attacked by insurgents. Teenage girls were raped and killed. Men were beaten while their wives were mutilated in their genitalia for daring to not wear a hijab - the tribe wasn't even Muslim. A teacher was immolated alive and his charred corpse hung from a tree. I saw all of this. While I haven't been particularly changed as a person by this (and I acknoweldge this), it was a very unpleasant experience. 

The people who did that were Islamic fanatics who would kill or beat anyone for not subscribing to their twisted and perverted interpretation of Islam. They killed these people out of hate. Out of bullying. Out of retaliation for daring to defy them.

Those reasons are unforgivable - unjustified. To me. And to most sane people

But it also proves to me that morality is subjective. There is no universal right or wrong. 

But in a video game about a hypothetical situation with an entirely different context behind it? Can it ever be acceptable?

Not the case I described. 

But it makes me respect my enemy. I don't respect their goals or their opinions or their motivations. But I respect their resolve. 

I know not to underestimate them. I know not to take what we have for granted, as Americans, and as a free society.

But in the case of research to fight an utterly desperate war where you have to do the terrible ends to ensure the galaxy will live on, can it be justifiable?

If all life is lost in the galaxy, what choice do we have? That's the position the Reapers have put us in.

The things that Cerburus did to people on Horizen and Omega are unforgivable. Admiral Hackett is right when he tells you no matter what Cerburus discovered "The cost was too high."

Against the Reapers?

Nothing is unforgivable.

No cost is too great.

Because there is nothing more unforgivable than the Reapers.

There is no cost to great when it comes to destroying them.

And the alliance and the Council refuse to accept this. 

They allowed this to happen. They refused to act against the Reapers.

In my opinion, they are the trash.

Time to take out the trash.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 11 août 2013 - 03:33 .

[Xilizhra]

But in the case of research to fight an utterly desperate war where you have to do the terrible ends to ensure the galaxy will live on, can it be justifiable?

I actually don't recall terrible things having ever been necessary; the worst beneficial action I can think of was telling a bunch of refugees to leave.

You are lying: this is contradicted by the sources I already provided. You are outright denying and ignoring established canon. Please read the sources I provide.

The statements in ME1 have been retconned by the sources I proved.

Do you know the what the definition of a retcon is?

It's not a retcon; the war room guards in ME3 mention that origin of Cerberus in one conversation. So one of two things: both they and Kahoku were mistaken, or TIM took over a preexisting Alliance black ops group. But it's not a retcon.

Against the Reapers?

Nothing is unforgivable.

No cost is too great.

Because there is nothing more unforgivable than the Reapers.

There is no cost to great when it comes to destroying them.

And the alliance and the Council refuse to accept this. 

They allowed this to happen. They refused to act against the Reapers.

In my opinion, they are the trash.

Time to take out the trash.

Eh. There's no more reason to hate the Reapers than to hate the bomb dropped on you; they're just tools. And I believe they're too powerful to simply throw away like that, not to mention they carry the potential of renewed sapience within them.
Also, they didn't refuse to act against the Reapers, they just didn't acknowledge that the Reapers were a threat until it was too late. It's not the same thing as knowing there's a threat and neglecting it; they didn't consider it to be one.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 11 août 2013 - 03:44 .

[shingara]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

You are lying: this is contradicted in the Evolutions comic. You are outright denying and ignoring established canon. Please read the Evolutions comic.

Yes, I know what black operations are.


You are lying: this is contradicted by the sources I already provided. You are outright denying and ignoring established canon. Please read the sources I provide.

The statements in ME1 have been retconned by the sources I proved.

Do you know the what the definition of a retcon is?

A black operation or black op is a covert operation by a government, a government agency, or a military organization. This can include activities by private companies or groups. A black operation typically involves activities that are highly clandestine and often outside of standard military/intelligence protocol, sometimes against the law. Key features of a black operation are that it is clandestine, it has negative overtones, and it is not attributable to the organization carrying it out.[1]

The main difference between a black operation and one that is merely clandestine is that a black operation involves a significant degree of deception, to conceal who is behind it or to make it appear that some other entity is responsible ("false flag" operations).[2][3]


So sorry to burst your bubble, but its a fact, i know you think you are the master race as you have a reacuring statement of hitler that you love to copy and paste and your rhetoric and beliefs on the values of life but you are wrong. I know for sure your gonna come back with your headcannon that you think is always correct but alas you are wrong.

 And you have only provided sources after shanxi, not before, and this is the time they were a black ops, so good night viena, enjoy your head cannon.

Modifié par shingara, 11 août 2013 - 03:59 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

In Exile wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...
It happened. Cerberus managed to create a rough method of controlling Reaper forces.

Except for the part where they never use it and are massacred to the last person, before having their indoctrinated leader almost singlehandedly win the war for reapers. On the list of miserable, pathetic failures, this is about as close to the top as you can get. 

Except for the part where it was unrefined (unfinished, not complete, not yet ready, not yet deployable).

Their indoctrinated leader did nearly do that. But that same indoctrinated leader made the decision to stop the Reapers instead. He shot himself. That said, he did pretty good for an indoctrinated leader: creating a rough concept that could have been applied with more time.

I certainly don't think it was a miserable, pathetic failure. Neither does my Shepard.

That's not incompetence. That's actually pretty incredible that they managed to get that far. 

To actually have had Cerberus on our side during the war... genius.

It's a complete and utter failure. It was never used against the reapers, apparently can't work if an actual reaper is present (i.e., all the time in any military encounter), and according to you only works if you create the husks yourself. 

It's like an auto-lose button that cost millions of lives and resources. 

Unrefined; incomplete; not yet ready; unfinished; unprepared; not perfected; underdeveloped.

You keep leaving that out.

Would it have ultimately worked? I don't know. Do you? I don't think you know either.

There was a beneficial application that had the rough concept proven.

Except they didn't prove anything, since they didn't show they could control a husk under reaper control with a reaper present. 

They did have their rough concept proven. They proved that conceptually, they could control a husk.

They hadn't reached a point where they could control a husk with a Reaper present. They were attacked before they could reach that point.

I don't agree with the long-term goal or it's validity, but imagine if instead of trying to control the Reapers, it was designed to find an exploitable weakness (ala Saren and Sovereign) of indoctrination. That might change things up a bit. A lot in fact.

Imagine if wearing perfume caused the reapers to spontaneously combust. That'd be amazing! 

As it stands, right now this "technology" is useless. So, no, fantasy wanking at what it could do it if wasn't completely useless in every respect doesn't somehow turn it useful. 

Yes, as it currently is, it's useless. That's because it's:

Unrefined; incomplete; not yet ready; unfinished; unprepared; not perfected; underdeveloped.

You keep dismissing it as inherently useless entirely because it was:

Unrefined; incomplete; not yet ready; unfinished; unprepared; not perfected; underdeveloped.