692 réponses à ce sujet

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Steelcan wrote...

Akuze was carried out by Alliance scientists (called that by Hackett, while Cerberus was part of the Alliance) Pragia was rogue.

But overall, Cerberus and TIM decided to prosecute their war with the Reapers in a different way than Shepard and they succeeded in finding a way to Control the Reapers. They had achieved their goal , but TIM stuck Reaper tech in his head.

In the end though they don't need vindication. Let their actions speak for themselves. it just depends what you see their actions as.

To add onto this: Why my Shepard supports Cerberus

I believe TIM was trying to manipulate Shepard in ME2, and my Shepard knows this, but really doesn't care. 

Everyone else has proven to be incompetent, ignorant, and incapable of protecting the galaxy, so Shepard goes with Cerberus in a heartbeat.

He considers it a shame that they were indoctrinated in ME3. They were supposed to be his ace in the hole, and they would have been his most important and most useful allies.

The reason my Shepard's relationship with Cerberus deteriorated was because TIM couldn't see that the Collector Base was something that could not reasonably be controlled. It was a threat. Like the One Ring of Sauron, the only ones who could use it were the Reapers, in which they acted through their own agents, the Collectors. It was insanity to think you could control that while the Reapers were still around. TIM refused to get in-line: we differed with how we had to approach the problem. Destroy really was our way to move. The way he was approaching it was just asinine: I'm on the fence on how I view Sanctuary. Was it a terrible operation? Or was it a stroke of genius? I don't feel right calling it either. So I'm going to leave it unresolved emotionally for myself. There's more, and I'll add to it later when I'm not passed out.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 09 août 2013 - 10:44 .

[HellbirdIV]

Baelrahn wrote...

The question is --and I really mean I do not know-- is Cerberus really the "morally grey" organization we get the impression of in the second game? What do we actually see of Cerberus in ME2 particularly?

Having both played the original game's Cerberus storyline and read the Cerberus-centric novels by Karpshyn I'm just going to say no, no they're not, and what we see of Cerberus in ME2 really is just the Illusive Man trying to manipulate Shepard (as some of the logs found on Cronos Station end up telling us in ME3).

Anyone who based their view of Cerberus in their ME2 incarnation is just drinking the Kool-Aid.

Modifié par HellbirdIV, 09 août 2013 - 10:31 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Ravensword wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

EDI just cramps my style. Would have preferred another squadmate instead of this Wall-E crap I get from both EDI and Legion.

I still wonder why they felt the need to give EDI a body.

.... Do I really have to say it?

CHARACTERIZATION AND HEROISM!

[MassivelyEffective0730]

HellbirdIV wrote...

Baelrahn wrote...

The question is --and I really mean I do not know-- is Cerberus really the "morally grey" organization we get the impression of in the second game? What do we actually see of Cerberus in ME2 particularly?

Anyone who based their view of Cerberus in their ME2 incarnation is just drinking the Kool-Aid.

That sounds more like you're disregarding an opinion because you don't like it more than anything.

In that case, I'll just keep drinking my kool-aid. I wish I could do it in ME3 as well.

[Ravensword]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Ravensword wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

EDI just cramps my style. Would have preferred another squadmate instead of this Wall-E crap I get from both EDI and Legion.

I still wonder why they felt the need to give EDI a body.

.... Do I really have to say it?

CHARACTERIZATION AND HEROISM!

Figures. They gave her the complete characterization pacage and then some.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Ravensword wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Ravensword wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

EDI just cramps my style. Would have preferred another squadmate instead of this Wall-E crap I get from both EDI and Legion.

I still wonder why they felt the need to give EDI a body.

.... Do I really have to say it?

CHARACTERIZATION AND HEROISM!

Figures. They gave her the complete characterization pacage and then some.

Yeah, I really wish they kept her as the AI. Joker didn't need a love interest. Hell, Joker wasn't much more than the pilot in my opinion. 

Personally, I do believe a lot of undue attention in the game was focused on him (by game I mean ME3). I think ME2 had it about right with how his story use should have been.

Then again, it's the same over the rather arbitrary loss of the Geth and EDI to the Destroy wave. I'm not opposed to it on the emotional level as so many other Destroyers are, but I am against it thematically and narratively in that it really serves no purpose but to reverse the plot of synthetics by 2 games and discredit everything you've accomplished to build up on them (if you play the game that way. I understand that many don't). 

[rohanks]

It is a good question.

With the following assumptions:
- the war is over and the Reaper Threat is removed
- a semblance of the Alliance is still intact
- the Council, newly elected or restored is the voice for galactic civilisation (highly debatable given the seismic shift sponsored by Shepard)
- that a legal framework acknowledged by all representatives of galactic civilisation has been transgressed/violated by the activities of Cerberus.

IMO, the remnants of Cerberus e.g Senior Executives, Technicians etc would be put on trial for war crimes. If this was the case, then my next question would be who would be the acknowledged authority to try Cerberus?

Given that the extent of their treachery was directed not just at humans but Asari, Quarian, Krogan and Turians?

Modifié par rohanks, 09 août 2013 - 10:51 .

[Alien Number Six]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Ravensword wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Ravensword wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

EDI just cramps my style. Would have preferred another squadmate instead of this Wall-E crap I get from both EDI and Legion.

I still wonder why they felt the need to give EDI a body.

.... Do I really have to say it?

CHARACTERIZATION AND HEROISM!

Figures. They gave her the complete characterization pacage and then some.

Yeah, I really wish they kept her as the AI. Joker didn't need a love interest. Hell, Joker wasn't much more than the pilot in my opinion. 

Personally, I do believe a lot of undue attention in the game was focused on him (by game I mean ME3). I think ME2 had it about right with how his story use should have been.

Then again, it's the same over the rather arbitrary loss of the Geth and EDI to the Destroy wave. I'm not opposed to it on the emotional level as so many other Destroyers are, but I am against it thematically and narratively in that it really serves no purpose but to reverse the plot of synthetics by 2 games and discredit everything you've accomplished to build up on them (if you play the game that way. I understand that many don't). 

EDI and Joker are awesome characters. It's Jacob I didn't see the need for.

[HellbirdIV]

rohanks wrote...

IMO, the remnants of Cerberus e.g
Senior Executives, Technicians etc would be put on trial for war
crimes. If this was the case, then my next question would be who would
be the acknowledged authority to try Cerberus?

Given that the extent of their treachery was directed not just at humans but Asari, Quarian, Krogan and Turians?

I would assume that Cerberus would, as a human organization, fall under the jurisdiction of the Systems Alliance courts, though given the scale of the events I imagine that the other major powers would have representatives to observe the proceedings and present further charges against Cerberus.

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

HellbirdIV wrote...

Anyone who based their view of Cerberus in their ME2 incarnation is just drinking the Kool-Aid.

That sounds more like you're disregarding an opinion because you don't like it more than anything.

You ignore all the actual evidence that doesn't benefit or adhere to your "viewpoint". That's called being delusional.

Modifié par HellbirdIV, 09 août 2013 - 10:58 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

In my headcanon, after a period, my Shepard reforms Cerberus with Miranda. Under new management, and this time with a lot more oversight and control over their scientists. He's not going to be excessive like TIM was without very good reason to be. Miranda will be his top organizer and leader - she'll be running the show more or less. Shepard is the figure-head and executor of actions, as well as chief diplomat. The purpose will be much the same, though this time, there will also be an alien division that combines humans and aliens to work towards a common goal of creating a hidden network and group that will silently keep a watch over the galaxy and insure that nothing to dangerous or destabilizing takes place, or that certain players are kept in line.

Shepard wants nothing to do with the alliance, and even threatens to go on a high level killing spree if anyone from Cerberus is prosecuted without him asking them to join his new group. He'll take a few people he thinks will be a good fit.

[HellbirdIV]

"Your Shepard" is incompatible with the actual Commander Shepard.

I reiterate; Delusional.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

HellbirdIV wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

HellbirdIV wrote...

Anyone who based their view of Cerberus in their ME2 incarnation is just drinking the Kool-Aid.

That sounds more like you're disregarding an opinion because you don't like it more than anything.

You ignore all the actual evidence that doesn't benefit or adhere to your "viewpoint". That's called being delusional.

I didn't ignore any evidence. I acknowledge it and can justify it if you wish. Whether you'll accept the justifications or not is on you.

You're resorting to petty insults, again, because you don't like my opinion.

Our new Cerberus will be sure to give the Asari in particular our regards when their species is put in chains to... entertain their new alien and human overlords.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

HellbirdIV wrote...

"Your Shepard" is incompatible with the actual Commander Shepard.

I reiterate; Delusional.

You're resorting to petty insults, again, because you don't like my opinion.

Our new Cerberus will be sure to give the Asari in particular our regards when their species is put in chains to... entertain their new alien and human overlords

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 09 août 2013 - 11:03 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Alien Number Six wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Ravensword wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Ravensword wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

EDI just cramps my style. Would have preferred another squadmate instead of this Wall-E crap I get from both EDI and Legion.

I still wonder why they felt the need to give EDI a body.

.... Do I really have to say it?

CHARACTERIZATION AND HEROISM!

Figures. They gave her the complete characterization pacage and then some.

Yeah, I really wish they kept her as the AI. Joker didn't need a love interest. Hell, Joker wasn't much more than the pilot in my opinion. 

Personally, I do believe a lot of undue attention in the game was focused on him (by game I mean ME3). I think ME2 had it about right with how his story use should have been.

Then again, it's the same over the rather arbitrary loss of the Geth and EDI to the Destroy wave. I'm not opposed to it on the emotional level as so many other Destroyers are, but I am against it thematically and narratively in that it really serves no purpose but to reverse the plot of synthetics by 2 games and discredit everything you've accomplished to build up on them (if you play the game that way. I understand that many don't). 

EDI and Joker are awesome characters. It's Jacob I didn't see the need for.

They are good characters. EDI didn't need a body to be a good character, and Joker didn't need to get all robosexual to be a good character. 

I like Jacob. He's an alright guy. Not the most memorable, but in game, he has his uses. He's a capable and taciturn, thoughtful soldier. He has some strong experience, and his biotics add to his skills. His characterization went completely south in the third game though, and I'll agree to that if that's the point you're making.

[Indy_S]

Perhaps stopping this conversation here is for the best.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

HellbirdIV wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

You're resorting to petty insults, again, because you don't like my opinion.

Oh no, I'm resorting to insults because I know how easy it is to provoke stupid racist rednecks into a frothing fury, and it amuses me.

I wonder where those statistics are showing how many players ultimately let Potatoface Cerberus Slag get killed by Kai Leng.

More personal attacks and insulting language.

Thanks for the report material!

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 09 août 2013 - 11:09 .

[Barquiel]

Cerberus is the main face of Reaper collaboration and commited atrocities on a massive scale during the war. Their crimes received extensive media coverage as well. Racism will never go away, but Cerberus is destroyed, and any successor organisation won't get the financial support or enough recruits (especially scientists...thugs like Kai Leng are probably easier to find while people like Petrovsky will most likely spend the rest of their life in jail) to become a serious threat again.

Modifié par Barquiel, 09 août 2013 - 11:12 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Barquiel wrote...

Cerberus is the main face of Reaper collaboration and commited atrocities on a massive scale during the war. Their crimes received extensive media coverage as well. Racism will never go away, but Cerberus is destroyed, and any successor organisation won't get the financial support or enough recruits (especially scientists...thugs like Kai Leng are probably easier to find while people like Petrovsky will most likely spend the rest of their life in jail) to become a serious threat again.

Well, in my universe, said organization will exist (under Shepard's authority no less), and all those people will be reinstated to do many of the same things as before.

I'll respect your headcanon though if you respect mine.

[Indy_S]

HellbirdIV wrote...

It was inevitable that a thread mentioning Cerberus gets a visit from racist wankers.

You're not exactly inspiring a great contrast.

[Seboist]

HellbirdIV wrote...

Indy_S wrote...

Perhaps stopping this conversation here is for the best.

That image perfectly describes ME2 and 3's plots.

[Seboist]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Joker didn't need to get all robosexual to be a good character.

Just when I thought I couldn't have more reasons to hate that ******, he turns around and starts dating a walking tin can showing how much a depraved deviant he was.

My only regret with the control ending(which none of Derperus' actions has anything to do with) is that EDI's circuits are fried like in destroy but I can always headcanon that my cata-shep flies "her" into the nearest star with Joker inside(and Liara).

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Seboist wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Joker didn't need to get all robosexual to be a good character.

Just when I thought I couldn't have more reasons to hate that ******, he turns around and starts dating a walking tin can showing how much a depraved deviant he was.

My only regret with the control ending(which none of Derperus' actions has anything to do with) is that EDI's circuits are fried like in destroy but I can always headcanon that my cata-shep flies "her" into the nearest star with Joker inside(and Liara).

Sounds reasonable enough. Hope they brought sunscreen. 

[HellbirdIV]

Seboist wrote...

Derperus

Goddamn. I wish I'd thought of that.

Modifié par HellbirdIV, 09 août 2013 - 11:36 .

[Seboist]

Feel free to use Derpcible(Crucible) as well.