692 réponses à ce sujet

[Dieb]

In a feeble attempt to get this discussion back on track in a polite manner:

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...
I'm on the fence on how I view Sanctuary. Was it a terrible operation? Or was it a stroke of genius? I don't feel right calling it either. So I'm going to leave it unresolved emotionally for myself.

Now I have to know: Is this your Shepard or you as a person speaking?

What happened on Sanctum, to me was one of the ideologically most digusting, vile and deplorable things that were shown in the entire trilogy. To the extend I was actually waiting for the recording that nullified what I had heard so far, since it seemed like an intentionally misleading trace of staged evidence.

Modifié par Baelrahn, 09 août 2013 - 12:02 .

[Steelcan]

Barquiel wrote...

Cerberus is the main face of Reaper collaboration and commited atrocities on a massive scale during the war. Their crimes received extensive media coverage as well. Racism will never go away, but Cerberus is destroyed, and any successor organisation won't get the financial support or enough recruits (especially scientists...thugs like Kai Leng are probably easier to find while people like Petrovsky will most likely spend the rest of their life in jail) to become a serious threat again.

Why?  There will always be a need for a group like them.  The opposition humans face in the galaxy gaurantees it.

Modifié par Steelcan, 09 août 2013 - 12:08 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Baelrahn wrote...

In a feeble attempt to get this discussion back on track in a polite manner:

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...
I'm on the fence on how I view Sanctuary. Was it a terrible operation? Or was it a stroke of genius? I don't feel right calling it either. So I'm going to leave it unresolved emotionally for myself.

Now I have to know: Is this your Shepard or you as a person speaking?

What happened on Sanctum, to me was one of the ideologically most digusting, vile and deplorable things that were shown in the entire trilogy. To the extend I was actually waiting for the recording that nullified what I had heard so far, since it seemed like an intentionally misleading trace of staged evidence.

Both. I tend to try to speak through my Shepard. Not all the time, but in some circumstances. I view it as disturbingly unnecessary, but also as a testament to what Cerberus could possibly accomplish with the Crucible. I don't think their plan would have ever worked without it, but I think that they intended it as a proof of concept that would be viable with the Crucible. And it very well could've worked if my Shepard wasn't ideologically opposed to destroy. That's why I consider it genius as well.

[KaiserShep]

A group like Cerberus before they became a gaggle of indoctrinated psychopaths would be necessary, but their usefulness grows thin if ambition starts to trump good sense.

Cerberus' problem in ME3 is that they were attempting to make their intended solution be the ONLY solution, and that's stupid. If your goal is to save the galaxy, you'd probably want to explore as many options as you can, even if some options are not exactly favorable in comparison. TIM insists that controlling the reapers is the best option, but seems adamant about making sure that there are no other options in place, in case his falls through. But I guess it doesn't matter, because indoctrination.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 09 août 2013 - 12:24 .

[The Don's Hound]

David7204 wrote...

Perhaps you should rag on the frequent suggestions on the BSN for bazillions of dreadnoughts. Or bazillions of Klengagon guns. Or bazillions of Thanix cannons. Or any of the other logistical impossibilities frequenctly endorsed.

I had believed you had a will to resist the urges of being an idiot. Such a shame. 

[HellbirdIV]

KaiserShep wrote...

A group like Cerberus before they became a gaggle of indoctrinated psychopaths would be necessary, but their usefulness grows thin if ambition starts to trump good sense.

That's kind of why I don't see Cerberus as being necessary at all.

The Systems Alliance represents humanity. They go to great lengths to not only protect humanity - their illegal AI research in Revelations and the Arrival project demonstrate that Cerberus are not the only ones who will undertake hard and ethically questionable tasks for the greater good - and they also provide humans with the ability to speak their minds and make changes on their own.

The Systems Alliance is a democratic institution which goes where humanity wants to go. Cerberus is an extremist group that tries to enforce its own political ideologies on all of humanity, wether they agree with them or not.

Cerberus murders humans. A lot of humans. They expose colonies to Element Zero in dust form, killing countless people, just so that the few babies that are born with biotic ability rather than fatal cancer tumours can be used for experimentation. They kidnap, poison and murder human politicians to replace them with people who Cerberus can more easily manipulate.

Cerberus does not, and never did, care about humanity. "Humanity's interests" is just their slogan, like "Racial purity" or "Traditional morals" are slogans for modern extremist groups. They don't really care about us - they're just furthering their own ambitions at our expense.

[DecCylonus]

Cerberus as an organization committed many horrible acts. Perhaps they deserve credit for recognizing Shepard's value and undertaking the monumental taks of resurrecting him / her. Credit does not equal vindication though. This is the group that set thresher maws loose on human colonies, lost control of thorian creepers on inhabited worlds, tortured children to produce a better biotic, used an autistic man as a tool to try to control the Geth, and ultimately lured desperate war refugees to Horizon so that they could create an indoctrinated army and / or turn them into husks in the name of research. Those are just the atrocities we know of. Cerberus did all of these things to further TIM's selfish goals of human supremacy, so their aims were as despicable as their means. One act that happened to help save the galaxy does not vindicate the organization that did all of these things.

If we remove Shepard's plot armor - the fact that he / she is the hero of the narrative - then Shepard's necessity to the war effort becomes questionable. The one unique thing Shepard posessed was the Prothean Cypher. It plays a role in the events of ME3, but not a crucial one. Otherwise, Shepard is just a badass special forces operative. The Alliance has many N7's, the Council has many Spectres, and the other races have their own special forces. The law of averages says there should be other individuals who could have performed Shepard's missions in ME3. Maybe Shepard is the ultimate badass and had a better chance than anyone else, but it's tough to argue that the war could not be won without him / her.

If anyone deserves credit or vindication for bringing Shepard back, it's Miranda Lawson. She actually overcame the scientific challenges of bringing somebody back from the dead. All TIM and Cerberus did was throw money at the problem.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

KaiserShep wrote...

A group like Cerberus before they became a gaggle of indoctrinated psychopaths would be necessary, but their usefulness grows thin if ambition starts to trump good sense.

That's exactly right. TIM started to try and do anything, including extreme, egregious, and needlessly violent methods to pursue said goals. I'm a believer in the ends justifying the means, but only when the ends can be accomplished through means that you have to go outside the norm for. Too many times, Cerberus resorted to the solution that caused too much problems, either for themselves or for others. I'm not opposed to such means provided they are not the go-to method and are only used when necessary. Another problem is the ends. Not always could the ends be accomplished by the most egregious methods. I blame TIM for not keeping his people on a tight leash. 

Cerberus' problem in ME3 is that they were attempting to make their intended solution be the ONLY solution, and that's stupid. If your goal is to save the galaxy, you'd probably want to explore as many options as you can, even if some options are not exactly favorable in comparison. TIM insists that controlling the reapers is the best option, but seems adamant about making sure that there are no other options in place, in case his falls through. But I guess it doesn't matter, because indoctrination.

Again, this is correct. It really shows to serve how far down the line of indoctrination is for Cerberus and how much control the Reapers really have.

As Shepard might say if you choose to execute the VS on the Citadel (and one of the very excessively few... non-anti-Cerberus moments in the game); "The Illusive Man wouldn't have to fight me if he didn't use Reaper Tech."

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 09 août 2013 - 12:42 .

[HellbirdIV]

DecCylonus wrote...

If anyone deserves credit or vindication for bringing Shepard back, it's Miranda Lawson. She actually overcame the scientific challenges of bringing somebody back from the dead.

Miranda doesn't really need to be vindicated, though. It is made clear - especially in my subsequent playthroughs - that she's with Cerberus because she's blinded by the ideal. As I said above, "Humanity's interests" is a slogan, and people will cling to such things if it means they don't have to look past it.

She denies Cerberus doing anything wrong despite how many times you bring her, personally, to see horrific experiments gone awry or confront her about the murders they've committed. But she is not herself guilty of these crimes.

She's a Cerberus apologist, but unlike TIM and many other Project Leaders, she's not actually a war criminal - as far as we know, anyway, and I'm not inclined to blame her for something we have no evidence she was involved in.

StreetMagic wrote...

HellbirdIV wrote...

The Systems Alliance represents humanity. They go to great lengths to not only protect humanity

Yeah, that's why tens of thousands of colonists went missing during ME2, and they did little about it.

They did do something about it. Cerberus claims the Alliance doesn't do anything about it, but that's just more propoganda.

The Alliance has no military presence in the Terminus Systems, and attempting to establish one - by say, sending a Wolf Pack of frigates to patrol it - would lead to a sudden and overwhelming violent response from the Terminus species.

Despite this, they established defenses on human colonies. Human colonies that, I remind you, were not part of the Alliance. Fehl Prime had a military contingent, Horizon was donated defensive ground-to-air weaponry.

Meanwhile, Cerberus knew that Horizon was going to be attacked - in fact, they led the Collectors to attack it. TIM himself admits it, in ME2. They sacrificed the colony for the sake of finding out more about the Collectors - gee, it sure would have been nice of him to tell the Alliance that so they could have intercepted the Collector cruiser, wouldn't it?

Cerberus wants to further its own agenda, and they don't care who is sacrificed along the way; TIM could have achieved so much more if Cerberus cooperated with the Alliance, even covertly.

Modifié par HellbirdIV, 09 août 2013 - 12:46 .

[shingara]

Cerb were always shady as hell, before they broke off from the alliance they were a shady black ops, and as joker love to points out. If you have to lie about it then its not a good thing your doing in the first place.

So ye they might have brought shep back but they saw them as nothing more then a weapon to point and forget to destroy something. The rest of nearly everything they did was evil nasty stuff so no they arnt vindicated.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

I see this is turning into a Cerberus bash thread.

In case anyone missed it, here's why I'm pro-Cerberus.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 09 août 2013 - 12:45 .

[Steelcan]

If I wasn't on my phone Is be able to post quickly.

[shingara]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

I see this is turning into a Cerberus bash thread.

 Only as much as nuremburg.

[Steelcan]

shingara wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

I see this is turning into a Cerberus bash thread.

 Only as much as nuremburg.

.  Sanctuary and Auswitch are two different beasts

[shingara]

Steelcan wrote...

shingara wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

I see this is turning into a Cerberus bash thread.

 Only as much as nuremburg.

.  Sanctuary and Auswitch are two different beasts

 Dont see how, and then david and the thorium victims, omega experiments. The assasinations and coup attempts and the other mire listings of warcrimes.

Modifié par shingara, 09 août 2013 - 12:51 .

[jtav]

Sanctuary was repulsive. What Henry did was impressive but could and should have been done with corpses.But Lazarus and the SR-2? We need more of that. I'd also support all just means to put an end to the Council system, including revolution. So something like Cerberus led by someone like Miranda who has ethics, even if they break the law on a regular basis.

[Steelcan]

If you don't see the difference you aren't worth talking to. Sanctuary had a worthwhile goal and provided valuable information at an extremely high cost.

[HellbirdIV]

StreetMagic wrote...

People should play a Colonist origin, if they haven't. Just to get the general feel of what it's like to be a human in this game. Many are screwed. That's why Cerberus came to be.

In the vast, lawlessness of space, about the only group that could help humans like that is a vigilante group. Not the council or Alliance. Those two groups can barely mobilize for gigantic threats, let alone small ones.

I seem to recall that Colonist Shepard was rescued from the batarians by the Alliance, not Cerberus.

I also seem to recall that Alliance marines eliminated the geth on Eden Prime and Feros, not to mention defeating the batarians during the Skyllian Blitz.

And the Systems Alliance Fifth Fleet and Citadel Fleet destroyed Sovereign and his massive fleet of Geth Cruisers.

Cerberus, meanwhile, killed a whole bunch of human colonists for science.

Modifié par HellbirdIV, 09 août 2013 - 12:55 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Steelcan wrote...

shingara wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

I see this is turning into a Cerberus bash thread.

 Only as much as nuremburg.

.  Sanctuary and Auswitch are two different beasts

Indeed. Auschwitz was run by an entity dedicated to the eradication of Jews and 'impure' people's who went against the Aryan ideology and run by people who really were racist ****s.... who were also quite brilliant and ingenious ****s as well.

Sanctuary: I personally don't believe in any inherent racism from Cerberus. TIM certainly never shows it, nor does Miranda, or Petrovsky. It's true that many people join Cerberus out of xenophobia, but that's also true of the alliance, and true of all council races (as well as many non-council races).

In the context of the war, I think Sanctuary was a good idea that was mismanaged and it had a few inherent flaws with the way it was executed. 

Anyone here up for an economic debate? It ties into this, I swear.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

jtav wrote...

Sanctuary was repulsive. What Henry did was impressive but could and should have been done with corpses.But Lazarus and the SR-2? We need more of that. I'd also support all just means to put an end to the Council system, including revolution. So something like Cerberus led by someone like Miranda who has ethics, even if they break the law on a regular basis.

I agree with this. I'm even willing to do the 'morally repugnant' stuff if necessary to accomplish a goal, though I'm not going to resort to it nigh-constantly like TIM. Not every goal required the death of a colony or the destruction of an entire cell due to uncontrollable methods. TIM's employee's were just plain sloppy.

[HellbirdIV]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

In the context of the war, I think Sanctuary was a good idea that was mismanaged and it had a few inherent flaws with the way it was executed.

This man believed he was doing valuable science at Auschwitz.

Modifié par HellbirdIV, 09 août 2013 - 12:59 .