692 réponses à ce sujet

[shingara]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

shingara wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

I see this is turning into a Cerberus bash thread.

 Only as much as nuremburg.

.  Sanctuary and Auswitch are two different beasts

Indeed. Auschwitz was run by an entity dedicated to the eradication of Jews and 'impure' people's who went against the Aryan ideology and run by people who really were racist ****s.... who were also quite brilliant and ingenious ****s as well.

Sanctuary: I personally don't believe in any inherent racism from Cerberus. TIM certainly never shows it, nor does Miranda, or Petrovsky. It's true that many people join Cerberus out of xenophobia, but that's also true of the alliance, and true of all council races (as well as many non-council races).

In the context of the war, I think Sanctuary was a good idea that was mismanaged and it had a few inherent flaws with the way it was executed. 

Anyone here up for an economic debate? It ties into this, I swear.

 Hmm sanctuary was run by xenophobic madmen, who killed and slaughtered unknown numbers of people in twisted and evil experiments, wanted to enslave and control all other races including there own that didnt conform to there ideals and would stop at nothing for that power.

 In the context of war that is a warcrime.

 Be a cerberus sympothiser if you wish but it doesnt change the facts of what they were and what lengths they would go to for there ideology.

Modifié par shingara, 09 août 2013 - 01:00 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

StreetMagic wrote...

jtav wrote...

Sanctuary was repulsive. What Henry did was impressive but could and should have been done with corpses.But Lazarus and the SR-2? We need more of that. I'd also support all just means to put an end to the Council system, including revolution. So something like Cerberus led by someone like Miranda who has ethics, even if they break the law on a regular basis.

I'd say keep the council. They just need more human spectres. That's the lawless/vigilante solution that still maintains status quo. Cerberus started at a time when humanity had no say-so about anything.

The current system of the Council is too much of an exclusive powers club. I think something more like the Galactic Republic is necessary, with a Cerberus that is akin to Thrawn's Empire of the Hand.

I'm a massive Star Wars fan if you can tell.

[spirosz]

HellbirdIV wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

People should play a Colonist origin, if they haven't. Just to get the general feel of what it's like to be a human in this game. Many are screwed. That's why Cerberus came to be.

In the vast, lawlessness of space, about the only group that could help humans like that is a vigilante group. Not the council or Alliance. Those two groups can barely mobilize for gigantic threats, let alone small ones.

I seem to recall that Colonist Shepard was rescued from the batarians by the Alliance, not Cerberus.

I also seem to recall that Alliance marines eliminated the geth on Eden Prime and Feros, not to mention defeating the batarians during the Skyllian Blitz.

And the Systems Alliance Fifth Fleet and Citadel Fleet destroyed Sovereign and his massive fleet of Geth Cruisers.

Cerberus, meanwhile, killed a whole bunch of human colonists for science.

Call me my Shepard selfish, but they brought Jack to him, though I'd rather that have not happened to her or anyone.  

Also, Cerberus went to extremes to be able to fight off extremes.  I know I don't like their methods, but it served a purpose, at least in ME2.  ME3 was... all over the place.  

[Steelcan]

Can you prove that Lawson is xenophobic?

[spirosz]

Steelcan wrote...

Can you prove that Lawson is xenophobic?

Miri? 

101. 

[Steelcan]

spirosz wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Can you prove that Lawson is xenophobic?

Miri? 

101. 

.  How about a line?

[Kataphrut94]

StreetMagic wrote...

HellbirdIV wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

A group like Cerberus before they became a gaggle of indoctrinated psychopaths would be necessary, but their usefulness grows thin if ambition starts to trump good sense.

That's kind of why I don't see Cerberus as being necessary at all.

The Systems Alliance represents humanity. They go to great lengths to not only protect humanity

Yeah, that's why tens of thousands of colonists went missing during ME2, and they did little about it.

On the surface, they try to present both the Alliance and the Council as being sort of like Star Trek entities. Full of goodwill and unity. But if you dig deeper, they're a bunch of incompetent, self-concerned jerks. The only reason to ever have any loyalty for either is because of those Trekky like sympathies.. this potential that they could live up to that.. because there's little in the games that's actually worthy of it. It's just all about potential. Not the reality of the situation.

In my opinion it's the opposite. The games really try to push the idea of Cerberus being a necessary evil, particularly in ME2. Characters like TIM and Miranda would talk at length about the value of their work, while characters who were opposed to them still respected them as a genuine power. But if you look past the straight-faced preaching and celebrity voice-actors, you have a racist organisation that knowingly commits atrocities in the name of mad science, controlled by an incredibly rich man with pretentions to being a Bond villain. To me, Cerberus is not deserving of the status they have in canon.

Meanwhile, it's the opposite with the Alliance and the Council. They've always been presented as overly beareaucratic and incompetent, but they ultimately pull through when push comes to shove. The Alliance were pretty much spearheading the war, and the rest of the Council didn't take that long to come around.

Yes, the colonies being outside their jurisdiction and therefore unprotected is a significant problem, but they weren't doing nothing at all; the VS's presence of Horizon is proof of that. Also bear in mind that if Cerberus hadn't stopped the Collectors first, the Alliance probably would have thanks to James Vega.

[jtav]

Something like the Galactic Republic indeed. The Council system is an oligarchy and the founding duo can't be bothered to follow the rules that they would punish others for breaking. If you're an elcor, you have no say in the laws you must abide by. And you can't leave without inflicting great poverty on yourself. That's not just.

[Steelcan]

@Kataphruct, they sent one soldier and guns that didn't shoot straight.

[spirosz]

Steelcan wrote...

spirosz wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Can you prove that Lawson is xenophobic?

Miri? 

101. 

.  How about a line?

fanforever.

[Ieldra]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

jtav wrote...

Sanctuary was repulsive. What Henry did was impressive but could and should have been done with corpses.But Lazarus and the SR-2? We need more of that. I'd also support all just means to put an end to the Council system, including revolution. So something like Cerberus led by someone like Miranda who has ethics, even if they break the law on a regular basis.

I agree with this. I'm even willing to do the 'morally repugnant' stuff if necessary to accomplish a goal, though I'm not going to resort to it nigh-constantly like TIM. Not every goal required the death of a colony or the destruction of an entire cell due to uncontrollable methods. TIM's employee's were just plain sloppy.

I agree. There is something to be said for an organization like the Cerberus painted in the manifesto, one that works for radical advancement and doesn't shy away from breaking the law and doing questionable things here and there.

Only when necessary though. It appears that the writers forgot about the "necessary" in "necessary evil" and just went all-out with the horror. More than for the endings, I resent ME3 of giving radical technological achievements like Lazarus an evil face.

[DecCylonus]

HellbirdIV wrote...

Miranda doesn't really need to be vindicated, though. It is made clear - especially in my subsequent playthroughs - that she's with Cerberus because she's blinded by the ideal. As I said above, "Humanity's interests" is a slogan, and people will cling to such things if it means they don't have to look past it.

She denies Cerberus doing anything wrong despite how many times you bring her, personally, to see horrific experiments gone awry or confront her about the murders they've committed. But she is not herself guilty of these crimes.

She's a Cerberus apologist, but unlike TIM and many other Project Leaders, she's not actually a war criminal - as far as we know, anyway, and I'm not inclined to blame her for something we have no evidence she was involved in.

I agree. Miranda was shown a front by Cerberus, just like Shepard was. She had invested herself in the organization, so initially she is an apologist when confronted with Cerberus atrocities. She also believes somewhat in their mission of advancing humanity, so she tries to explain away some of the things you find in ME2. She vindicates herself, at least for me, by quitting Cerberus when TIM tries to acquire the Collector Base for himself.

My point about her deserving vindication for bringing Shepard back is that she did far more than Cerberus did as an organization. Giving credit or vindication to Cerberus instead of Miranda is like giving a university credit for the scientific discovery made by one of its professors.

[Kataphrut94]

Steelcan wrote...

@Kataphruct, they sent one soldier and guns that didn't shoot straight.

Poor timing. They only needed one soldier to get the guns working, and we know they would have been enough to defend the colony had the Collectors not attacked when they did.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

shingara wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

shingara wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

I see this is turning into a Cerberus bash thread.

 Only as much as nuremburg.

.  Sanctuary and Auswitch are two different beasts

Indeed. Auschwitz was run by an entity dedicated to the eradication of Jews and 'impure' people's who went against the Aryan ideology and run by people who really were racist ****s.... who were also quite brilliant and ingenious ****s as well.

Sanctuary: I personally don't believe in any inherent racism from Cerberus. TIM certainly never shows it, nor does Miranda, or Petrovsky. It's true that many people join Cerberus out of xenophobia, but that's also true of the alliance, and true of all council races (as well as many non-council races).

In the context of the war, I think Sanctuary was a good idea that was mismanaged and it had a few inherent flaws with the way it was executed. 

Anyone here up for an economic debate? It ties into this, I swear.

 Hmm sanctuary was run by xenophobic madmen

Henry Lawson perhaps. Otherwise TIM has never displayed any xenophobic tendencies. And yes, I've read the novels and the comics, and not once did I interpret his behavior or attitude as such. Hell, in Evolutions, he tells Saren to prepare his own people for the Reapers (even though they aren't specifically named).

who killed and slaughtered unknown numbers of people in twisted and evil experiments

Unknown numbers of people that served no purpose to the war effort and thus had no economically, strategically, or logically justifiable reason for existence. They were going to end up dead or suffering anyway. Might as well make them useful. That's where the economics comes in. We can discuss this point more if you wish. 

By the way, morals are relative. 'Twisted and evil' doesn't always apply.

wanted to enslave and control all other races that didnt conform to there ideals and would stop at nothing for that power.

Headcanon. Complete headcanon.

In the context of war that is a warcrime.

I think the greater crime is doing nothing and expecting the problem to just disappear. 

That kind of crime is what makes things like Cerberus necessary. 

The crime of ignorance. The alliance is guilty of it. The Council is guilty of it. Damn near the entire galaxy is guilty of it.

Be a cerberus sympothiser if you wish but it doesnt change the facts of what they were and what lengths they would go to for there ideology.

I know exactly what Cerberus is, and I know exactly the lengths they'll go for their ideology. I don't think you understand their ideology. It's not anti-alien. It's pro-human. They believe humanity needs a better voice in the galaxy and are very survivalist, though I don't think that they are xenophobic and racist. I think they need to work more on a cooperative and liberally progressive constructivist position than the realist position that they have adopted.

I hesitatingly approve. I think they need to clean up their act a bit, but I approve, and admire them for their willingness to do what needs to be done.

I will concede that is subjective depending on how you view it. I think the argument of 'it's evil' is lousy and not even worth using. That's not going to stop people.

[Steelcan]

Lazarus is not portrayed negatively Ieldra

[HellbirdIV]

StreetMagic wrote...

I don't know what the story for the blitz was without Shepard

http://masseffect.wi.../Skyllian_Blitz

The people of Elysium and the Alliance rallied to defend the colony.
Small ground teams made up of Alliance Marines on leave and Elysium's
civilians managed to hold off the pirates, while the Alliance Navy, including the SSV Agincourt, engaged their vessels overhead. Navigator Pressly
claims that the pirate ships were no match for the Alliance: he
couldn't even keep track of how many ships the Agincourt destroyed. The
ground teams had a much harder fight, but still managed to hold out for
several hours. When reinforcements finally arrived, the enemy turned
tail and fled in what vessels they had left.
The aftermath of the Skyllian Blitz led to a major operation on Torfan
two years later, to destroy batarian pirate bases. The successful
defence of Elysium during the Blitz is often seen as a testament to the
Alliance military's training and adaptability. Some batarians remain
resentful over the Blitz's failure, claiming it was a just retribution
for humanity's actions against them.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

spirosz wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

spirosz wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Can you prove that Lawson is xenophobic?

Miri? 

101. 

.  How about a line?

fanforever.

I see what you did there.

[Steelcan]

Kataphrut94 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

@Kataphruct, they sent one soldier and guns that didn't shoot straight.

Poor timing. They only needed one soldier to get the guns working, and we know they would have been enough to defend the colony had the Collectors not attacked when they did.

.  Except that the collectors disable defenses before attacking.  

[shingara]

Whenever a separation is made between liberty and justice, neither, in my opinion, is safe. The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

HellbirdIV wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

In the context of the war, I think Sanctuary was a good idea that was mismanaged and it had a few inherent flaws with the way it was executed.

This man believed he was doing valuable science at Auschwitz.

I've done papers on Mengele.

The fact is this:

He did do valuable science at Auschwitz.

He did it for a repugnant ideology. He did it less out of science and more in the name of torture. His methods were egregious and grossly unnecessary for the goals he was trying to achieve.

But his research into hypothermia and hypoxia in humans at high altitudes was later used by the USAF and NASA as means for developing high level, high performance G-Suits for pilots and astronauts that kept them pressurized and warm. He created several designs for hypobaric chambers that are in use today.

[Bleachrude]

jtav wrote...

Something like the Galactic Republic indeed. The Council system is an oligarchy and the founding duo can't be bothered to follow the rules that they would punish others for breaking. If you're an elcor, you have no say in the laws you must abide by. And you can't leave without inflicting great poverty on yourself. That's not just.

Actually, the elcor PROBABLY have more power in the council than outside of it.

Here's a question...if you get rid of the council, you would still need a central meeting place (but here's a question...why would it be the citadel?)

One of the things about the council is that both the salarians and asari gave up a fair bit of power as well...why would the asari for example allow aliens on the citadel...they found it first (let's face it...if humanity had found the citadel first, is there any doubt that humanity would have hoarded it for themselves?)

This is the point I think that gets lost in "council sucks" argument...without the council, there IS no galactic society.

[HellbirdIV]

StreetMagic wrote...

So it's like Arrival, I guess. Multiple marines instead of one.

Yeah, but the point is really that the Alliance did in fact send reinforcements to Elysium, established anti-pirate patrols (as mentioned in many, MANY planetary info entries) and retaliated on Torfan.

Again, they certainly did a lot more to deal with the batarian problem than Cerberus ever did.

What did Cerberus do while the batarian piratess ravaged human colonies?

They were too busy killing human politicians who didn't agree with them, publicly humiliating an asari matriarch because she was pro-biotic, and blowing up some turian cruiser to eliminate some turian leader who did... something.

Truly, Cerberus has the best interests of humanity at heart. By performing random acts of terrorism against the people who aren't enslaving and murdering humans.

Modifié par HellbirdIV, 09 août 2013 - 01:20 .

[Steelcan]

shingara wrote...

Whenever a separation is made between liberty and justice, neither, in my opinion, is safe. The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.

. I can quote too.

Judge us not by our methods but by what we seek to accomplish