692 réponses à ce sujet

[shingara]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Unknown numbers of people that served no purpose to the war effort and thus had no economically, strategically, or logically justifiable reason for existence. They were going to end up dead or suffering anyway. Might as well make them useful. That's where the economics comes in. We can discuss this point more if you wish. 

By the way, morals are relative. 'Twisted and evil' doesn't always apply.

 I dont even need to say anything, you say everything about your morals.

[Steelcan]

HellbirdIV wrote...

Yeah, but the point is really that the Alliance did in fact send reinforcements to Elysium, established anti-pirate patrols (as mentioned in many, MANY planetary info entries) and retaliated on Torfan.

Again, they certainly did a lot more to deal with the batarian problem than Cerberus ever did.

.  Cerberus isn't there to fight a war against the batarians

[Bleachrude]

I've always been amused by the "doing what was necessary" argument.....

It doesn't matter how repugnant something is...as long as the bad guy says "I'm doing it for the good of us ALL"...apparently, that automatically makes it a-ok.

*LOL*

I wonder how many people agree with QB from PMMM.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

DecCylonus wrote...

I agree. Miranda was shown a front by Cerberus

Miranda was the bloody second-in-command of Cerberus. Don't even try to make that BS fly. She knew what was going on, or had a broad idea of what things were. My Shepard had seen first hand what Cerberus was, and given the context of the situation in the galaxy, he comes to the conclusion that they are ultimately necessary.

I see her as seeing Cerberus becoming a bit more idealistic with influence from Shepard and also realizing that TIM and Cerberus are changing. That's why she leaves them. They aren't serving humanity anymore. They've been indoctrinated, and they're on the path to damning the galaxy because they got too close and couldn't control what they had unleashed.

I believe it is because of Miranda that so much in Cerberus was successful. They aren't mutually exclusive. Miranda at the helm of Cerberus would still be a very shady and dark grey organization, but they'd be a lot more secretive and a lot more effective.

[RatThing]

StreetMagic wrote...


I don't know what the story for the blitz was without Shepard, but with him, he was on shore leave - and he mobilized the colonists there by himself. It wasn't an Alliance operation. Feros is a spectre job. Eden Prime is also basically a one man job. You're going to give the credit to the alliance for everything Shepard does?

As far as I know the Skyllian Blitz as well as the Battle of Torfan happened with or without Shepard in a very similar way. So securing the Skyllian Verge from the Batarians is definitely Alliance Work. The Blitz was a cooperation between the colonists and the Alliance forces, Torfan (which seems to be the most important battle) was mainly Alliance. And Shepard is an Alliance Soldier. Why not give the Alliance at least a little Credit for training him and also for making him a Spectre (thus recognize his potential).

as for Cerberus, an Organisation mostly controlled by only one man, no laws laws and regulations (only objectives) working hidden and uncontrolled. And they want to represent humanity? 1) Who gave them the damn authorization to do so  2) this can only turn out bad (as it did).

Modifié par RatThing, 09 août 2013 - 01:27 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

shingara wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Unknown numbers of people that served no purpose to the war effort and thus had no economically, strategically, or logically justifiable reason for existence. They were going to end up dead or suffering anyway. Might as well make them useful. That's where the economics comes in. We can discuss this point more if you wish. 

By the way, morals are relative. 'Twisted and evil' doesn't always apply.

 I dont even need to say anything, you say everything about your morals.

I know you're making an argument fallacy by making an appeal to morality to discredit me.

It backfired.

[HellbirdIV]

Steelcan wrote...

Judge us not by our methods but by what we seek to accomplish

We are judged by our actions, not our intent.

Steelcan wrote...

Cerberus isn't there to fight a war against the batarians

That's right. They weren't. Because they don't care about humanity - they only care about their own ideology.

[shingara]

Steelcan wrote...

shingara wrote...

Whenever a separation is made between liberty and justice, neither, in my opinion, is safe. The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.

. I can quote too.

Judge us not by our methods but by what we seek to accomplish

 Very funny that you Quote TIM where i quote JFK and Burke
 

[shingara]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

shingara wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Unknown numbers of people that served no purpose to the war effort and thus had no economically, strategically, or logically justifiable reason for existence. They were going to end up dead or suffering anyway. Might as well make them useful. That's where the economics comes in. We can discuss this point more if you wish. 

By the way, morals are relative. 'Twisted and evil' doesn't always apply.

 I dont even need to say anything, you say everything about your morals.

I know you're making an argument fallacy by making an appeal to morality to discredit me.

It backfired.

 You can only make an argument of morals with someone who has them to begin with.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

HellbirdIV wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Judge us not by our methods but by what we seek to accomplish

We are judged by our actions, not our intent.

Who's judging us? I want to flip him the bird.

Cerberus isn't there to fight a war against the batarians

That's right. They weren't. Because they don't care about humanity - they only care about their own ideology.

They've shown more care and passion for humanity than the alliance ever did. Granted, it's subjective opinion.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 09 août 2013 - 01:25 .

[Steelcan]

The measure of an individual is difficult to discern by actions alone

They exist to advance humanity, not fight every battle that the Alliance should be.

[HellbirdIV]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Who's judging us?

Everyone. It is how life works.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

shingara wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

shingara wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Unknown numbers of people that served no purpose to the war effort and thus had no economically, strategically, or logically justifiable reason for existence. They were going to end up dead or suffering anyway. Might as well make them useful. That's where the economics comes in. We can discuss this point more if you wish. 

By the way, morals are relative. 'Twisted and evil' doesn't always apply.

 I dont even need to say anything, you say everything about your morals.

I know you're making an argument fallacy by making an appeal to morality to discredit me.

It backfired.

 You can only make an argument of morals with someone who has them to begin with.

And you can only make an argument when you don't fall back on fallacies.

Really man, do you know how to put up an argument?

You're making a terrible genetic fallacy right now, and all it's doing is discrediting your own argument against me.

Saying that I don't have morals isn't an argument.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

HellbirdIV wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Who's judging us?

Everyone. It is how life works.

In that case, I flip them the bird.

[shingara]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

shingara wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

shingara wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Unknown numbers of people that served no purpose to the war effort and thus had no economically, strategically, or logically justifiable reason for existence. They were going to end up dead or suffering anyway. Might as well make them useful. That's where the economics comes in. We can discuss this point more if you wish. 

By the way, morals are relative. 'Twisted and evil' doesn't always apply.

 I dont even need to say anything, you say everything about your morals.

I know you're making an argument fallacy by making an appeal to morality to discredit me.

It backfired.

 You can only make an argument of morals with someone who has them to begin with.

And you can only make an argument when you don't fall back on fallacies.

Really man, do you know how to put up an argument?

You're making a terrible genetic fallacy right now, and all it's doing is discrediting your own argument against me.

Saying that I don't have morals isn't an argument.

 The fact of how you justify your morals is how your morals are judged. The only falacy is that you feel that your balance of morals that any price is acceptable to enable the means you require are justified by the results and not by the actions taken.

   I dont have to say anything about your morals as you have clearly stated exactly what they are.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Bleachrude wrote...

I've always been amused by the "doing what was necessary" argument.....

It doesn't matter how repugnant something is...as long as the bad guy says "I'm doing it for the good of us ALL"...apparently, that automatically makes it a-ok.

*LOL*

No... but examining the ideology, intent, behaviors, attitudes, and demeanors of the people doing the actions, and analyzing their arguments, logic, methods, reasons, and goals is needed for me to make a judgement.

I judge that we have different opinions on who the bad guys are. I think it's the Reapers.

[Dieb]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...
I judge that we have different opinions on who the bad guys are. I think it's the Reapers.

I think it's the ones who slaughter my kind, claiming their sacrifice will ultimately be beneficial for everybody.

Modifié par Baelrahn, 09 août 2013 - 01:39 .

[Bleachrude]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

They've shown more care and passion for humanity than the alliance ever did. Granted, it's subjective opinion.

How so?

The thing is...I'm not sure how the galaxy doesnt ALREADY reach around and give humanity the job. Are humans discriminated against like the quarians? Do people look down in disdain on the average human because he's human (well, outside of batarians)?


I personally find it fascinating so many people think humans are being pushed down BECAUSE humans are not on top. It's a fascinating topic and one ironically that shows how little humanity has progressed as a species...

The idea that humans might not be the "best" automatically means that the universe is out to get them....

[Bleachrude]

StreetMagic wrote...

The other negative about the council is just that Asari mentality takes the "long view".. they live for a thousand years. They don't think in haste, and aren't prone to action. To me, it's stupid. Whether problems are big or small, I want action.

Imagine working for someone like that. They'd never promote you. They'd always say "Just wait a bit. Maybe later." 10 years pass by and you're the same chump as when you started. And this how they behave with galactic politics.

Keep in mind that THIS can also be easily reversed with regard to the salarians...

Indeed, I can imagine multiple scenarios where people complain about the short-sightedness of the salarians (yahrg anyone?)

I would wager that most think the council should have invaded batarian space long ago (people are so bloodthirsty) but the fact that the asari are willing to take the long view is NOT a failing.

[Barquiel]

jtav wrote...

Something like the Galactic Republic indeed. The Council system is an oligarchy and the founding duo can't be bothered to follow the rules that they would punish others for breaking. If you're an elcor, you have no say in the laws you must abide by. And you can't leave without inflicting great poverty on yourself. That's not just.

Nobody forced the Elcor to open an embassy on the citadel. They elcor were basically uplifted by the Asari and rely on the council races for defense, but they can close their embassy at any time. And we know the council races have no problems to trade with non-council races. The asari developed Illium to serve as entrepôt between the Terminus Systems and the Asari Republics. Anderson is trying to build trade relations between Humans and Batarians in ME2 (if he's the councilor).

The Batarians decided to sever diplomatic and economic relations with the other races, I think you can't blame the council here.

[RatThing]

StreetMagic wrote...

RatThing wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...


I don't know what the story for the blitz was without Shepard, but with him, he was on shore leave - and he mobilized the colonists there by himself. It wasn't an Alliance operation. Feros is a spectre job. Eden Prime is also basically a one man job. You're going to give the credit to the alliance for everything Shepard does?

As far as I know the Skyllian Blitz as well as the Battle of Torfan happened with or without Shepard in a very similar way. So securing the Skyllian Verge from the Batarians is definitely Alliance Work. The Blitz was a cooperation between the colonists and the Alliance forces, Torfan (which seems to be the most important battle) was mainly Alliance. And Shepard is an Alliance Soldier. Why not give the Alliance at least a little Credit for training him and also for making him a Spectre (thus recognize his potential).

I can give them credit, but not that much. It's not realistic that they should be the sole policing/militaristic force for humans. This is space. Thousands of light years of territory, with all manner of hostile forces pinned against them. This isn't like governing a planet. Life resorts back to it's most basic : Predator and Prey. And humans are prey. In that light, it makes sense to me why Cerberus tested out thorian creepers and rachni, as shock troops. They need anything they can get.

And why should cerberus be  a policing/militaristic force? Only one man gives directions here. Most humans probably don´t know they exist, so like I said who gave them the damn authorization to speak for humanity? Plus (and as a side effect of their organizational structure) their experiments caused more harm than benefits. Uncotrolled by anyone? No risk too high? Only objectives matter? See how that worked out in project overlord. (Have they done actually anything benefitial for humanity other than bring Shepard back?)

Modifié par RatThing, 09 août 2013 - 01:49 .