154 réponses à ce sujet

[KaiserShep]

The Quarians were already shunned by much of galactic society, and word already spread about their questionable absence during much of the reaper war. There's the Salarians, but with there being a growing divide between their politicians and the military, that does make it complicated. As for Udina and Cerberus, both were wiped out by Shepard and the Alliance.

[KaiserShep]

Xilizhra wrote...

The Asari hoarded Prothean tech and kept it to themselves rather than sharing with the galaxy and helping the larger whole, breaking a very strict law that carries a severe punishment. Despite the people who initially made the decision, the Asari leadership continued to keep it hidden knowing full well that they were breaking a very serious law.

Sure let's handwave that and ignore it...because blue space pole dancers? Why even laws anyway if you're not going to enforce them.

Because there's literally no one to punish. Everyone involved is dead. And if there are any survivors, they'd have to be individually investigated and their guilt individually proven in individual trials... which would have to wait until the galaxy was rebuilt... and then, it would have to be the old Council system being put in place again, because the crime was committed under its jurisdiction, and anyone else trying to hold such a trial would be going heavily out of their own.

Then the information can be leaked to other forms of authority on the Asari homeworld, and let them deal with it. I would be willing to bet that a lot of them would not have agreed with this. If everyone who knew about the details regarding the beacon are dead, then damage done, but if not, then they can be made an example of by the other Asari.

[Grandiam]

The Asari weren't even able to fully comprehend the beacon without the Cipher, so it would make sense for them to only have obtained certain things from it, such as technological advances.

If they have to be punished it shouldn't be too harsh, considering they didn't know the significance of it until it was too late.

[Xilizhra]

KaiserShep wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The Asari hoarded Prothean tech and kept it to themselves rather than sharing with the galaxy and helping the larger whole, breaking a very strict law that carries a severe punishment. Despite the people who initially made the decision, the Asari leadership continued to keep it hidden knowing full well that they were breaking a very serious law.

Sure let's handwave that and ignore it...because blue space pole dancers? Why even laws anyway if you're not going to enforce them.

Because there's literally no one to punish. Everyone involved is dead. And if there are any survivors, they'd have to be individually investigated and their guilt individually proven in individual trials... which would have to wait until the galaxy was rebuilt... and then, it would have to be the old Council system being put in place again, because the crime was committed under its jurisdiction, and anyone else trying to hold such a trial would be going heavily out of their own.

Then the information can be leaked to other forms of authority on the Asari homeworld, and let them deal with it. I would be willing to bet that a lot of them would not have agreed with this. If everyone who knew about the details regarding the beacon are dead, then damage done, but if not, then they can be made an example of by the other Asari.

Very likely many wouldn't have agreed. And yes, an internal investigation would probably be the most efficient, though I still think it's something that can be put off until rebuilding is finished.

The Asari weren't even able to fully comprehend the beacon without the
Cipher, so it would make sense for them to only have obtained certain
things from it, such as technological advances.

If they have to
be punished it shouldn't be too harsh, considering they didn't know the
significance of it until it was too late.

"The asari" wouldn't be punished at all, because by far the vast majority of them didn't have a clue what was happening.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 13 août 2013 - 05:33 .

[Astartes Marine]

Xilizhra wrote...
Because there's literally no one to punish. Everyone involved is dead. And if there are any survivors, they'd have to be individually investigated and their guilt individually proven in individual trials... which would have to wait until the galaxy was rebuilt... and then, it would have to be the old Council system being put in place again, because the crime was committed under its jurisdiction, and anyone else trying to hold such a trial would be going heavily out of their own.

There are Asari leaders who decided to continue keeping it hidden yes?  I find it hard to believe that a group decided to hide the beacon, they die, and nobody else knew...oh wait Tevos told you of Matriarchs who knew of the hidden beacon.  So there are people who are guilty since somebody obviously made the decision to continue hiding Prothean tech from the galaxy.

The original criminals are gone, but new ones emerge.

And naturally it would have to wait until the galaxy was rebuilt, your grasp of the obvious is inspiring.



But really don't blame me for having this idea, BioWare were the ones who wrote in the fact that hoarding Prothean tech carries a harsh penalty for anyone.

Modifié par Astartes Marine, 13 août 2013 - 05:36 .

[Xilizhra]

There are Asari leaders who decided to continue keeping it hidden yes? I find it hard to believe that a group decided to hide the beacon, they die, and nobody else knew...oh wait Tevos told you of Matriarchs who knew of the hidden beacon. So there are people who are guilty since somebody obviously made the decision to continue hiding Prothean tech from the galaxy.

What I'm saying is that they were probably killed by the Reapers when they hit Thessia, the same way that the turian primarch went down. If they weren't all killed, cool; go investigate that and see who's involved, if anyone.

[Grandiam]

[quote]The Asari weren't even able to fully comprehend the beacon without the
Cipher, so it would make sense for them to only have obtained certain
things from it, such as technological advances.

If they have to
be punished it shouldn't be too harsh, considering they didn't know the
significance of it until it was too late.[/quote]
"The asari" wouldn't be punished at all, because by far the vast majority of them didn't have a clue what was happening.

[/quote]

Well yes, of course, I meant it more in the "Asari Republics" sense than in the entire species, I would think a crime like withholding Prothean tech would be against the state, since it was hidden by the government. 

What would the punishment be for that crime anyways? A fine, sanctions, general resentment?

[Xilizhra]

Grandiam wrote...

The Asari weren't even able to fully comprehend the beacon without the
Cipher, so it would make sense for them to only have obtained certain
things from it, such as technological advances.

If they have to
be punished it shouldn't be too harsh, considering they didn't know the
significance of it until it was too late.

"The asari" wouldn't be punished at all, because by far the vast majority of them didn't have a clue what was happening.

Well yes, of course, I meant it more in the "Asari Republics" sense than in the entire species, I would think a crime like withholding Prothean tech would be against the state, since it was hidden by the government. 

What would the punishment be for that crime anyways? A fine, sanctions, general resentment?

Arrest of the individual perpetrators, no collective punishment to the state.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 13 août 2013 - 05:50 .

[Astartes Marine]

Grandiam wrote...
What would the punishment be for that crime anyways? A fine, sanctions, general resentment?

That's the part that BioWare was never clear on, the only thing that has been said in the series was that the punishment is so harsh it could threaten a race's position on the council if the guilty party was a council species.  A non council species would likely get the Quarian/Batarian treatment or something similar.


As for what I would want...

• Open access to the Prothean beacon and all Prothean tech below it (you can see quite alot when the floor starts giving way) up to all races, and turn over any and all knowledge aqcuired from the beacon and related Prothean tech on-site.
• Any and all officials that knew of, or directly participated in the deception to immediately resign from their posts and submit themselves to Council authority.  Exact punishments for those officials to be decided by the Council itself for fairness' sake.

And that's it.  I'm not an unreasonable man despite what some would believe.

[Xilizhra]

Open access to the Prothean beacon and all Prothean tech below it (you can see quite alot when the floor starts giving way) up to all races, and turn over any and all knowledge aqcuired from the beacon and related Prothean tech on-site.

The temple's destroyed, nothing is left.

Any and all officials that knew of, or directly participated in the deception to immediately resign from their posts and submit themselves to Council authority. Exact punishments for those officials to be decided by the Council itself for fairness' sake.

And what would you do if none survived?

[RatThing]

Grandiam wrote...


Well yes, of course, I meant it more in the "Asari Republics" sense than in the entire species, I would think a crime like withholding Prothean tech would be against the state, since it was hidden by the government. 

What would the punishment be for that crime anyways? A fine, sanctions, general resentment?

Doesn`t Edi say to Liara after Thessia that the punishment for withholding prothean artifacts are among the harshest in citadel space?  So I 'd guess there would be severe sanctions. I don`t think that individual Asari would be charged by the Council since the Asari government is still independent and so would be their Judiciary.

[Bleachrude]

Why would the citadel be important?

The original draw for the citadel was that in-universe, it was the hub of galactic society since there were multiple relays in the same system as it. (Throughout the trilogy I think there were at least 3 different relays we used that tied directly to the citadel in that one half of the relay pair was in the same system as the citadel itself)

Either the citadel gets moved to at least arcturus (another system with multiple relays even though I think we only ever used 2 relay pairs) OR moved back to the serpent nebula OR more likely, someone builds a new space station where the citadel used to be. Economically, I can see the volus pushing the turians for this or even just going ahead and constructing it themselves.

The current location of the citadel above Earth has no advantage I can see. There's also the fact that there will ALSO be resentment against humanity due to Udina and Cerberus. Sure, the alliance was building the crucible but again, I'm not sure they were actually LEADING the war effort since while Shepard was important, it's hard to argue to the average person that the alliance wasn't in on cerberus shenanigans.

re: Punishment
Actually, I think it really depends on how much the turians actually push for this...both the salarians and the asari would politically be interested in covering for each other and the turians have no reason to cover for the asari OR the salarians.

In terms of PR, the turians actually came out the best since remember, the humans also have to PR disaster that is both Udina and Sanctuary....any initiative led by humans to punish either the salarians or asari could easily include counter-charges due to cerberus.

Modifié par Bleachrude, 13 août 2013 - 06:31 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Xilizhra wrote...

Any and all officials that knew of, or directly participated in the deception to immediately resign from their posts and submit themselves to Council authority. Exact punishments for those officials to be decided by the Council itself for fairness' sake.

And what would you do if none survived?

Wipe the pathetic Asari scum from the face of the universe.

Hmm, you've given me a good reason to choose control.

[Soccer FeverMan]

No, it wouldn't make in any sense so many variable depending on your endings. turian's still have a powerful fleet the Alliance fleets got stomped on. The council race that would be on top in most games would be salarians. geth and quarians could possibly make a power grab but that's really only in the atrocity ending known as synthesis.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

It's doubtful that anyone would fault the Turians for their focus on military strength. Earth was attacked at the start of the war too, so what does that say about the humans?

My point being that the Reapers would steamroll everyone regardless of their culture.

Well, if you ignore the ones that they didn't: the Turians, the Krogan, the Salarians, and the Hanar. Those lost from attrition or sabotage, not an unorganized military establishment dedicated to hit-and-run against a foe in which anti-logistics warfare is useless.

It's established in the game that Shepard sends reports back to the Alliance for Hackett or whoever else is in command for review after each mission. There's no reason to think that he/she would make an exception for the Prothean beacon that was [illegally] hidden from the public on Thessia. I certainly wouldn't leave that juicy tidbit of information out of any report, because that would be ridiculous.

I sure as hell would. I'm using my discretion as a Spectre, and I see no reason to divulge information that would damage galactic stability with no real payoff.

Well, there's the payoff of a functioning system of accountability on rogue powers, but we'll ignore that.

Thankfully for the galaxy, you aren't the only one who knows, nor do you have veto authority on everyone else who does. Keeping your mouth shut for your favored race does nothing against the other sources.

[Xilizhra]

Well, if you ignore the ones that they didn't: the Turians, the Krogan, the Salarians, and the Hanar. Those lost from attrition or sabotage, not an unorganized military establishment dedicated to hit-and-run against a foe in which anti-logistics warfare is useless.

I.e. a foe that no one could possibly have prepared for?

Thankfully for the galaxy, you aren't the only one who knows, nor do you have veto authority on everyone else who does. Keeping your mouth shut for your favored race does nothing against the other sources.

Fairly sure I'm one of only three people who does know. Also, it's not so threatening assuming you're only pursuing the actual culprits who kept it a secret from the rest of the race.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

Because millenia of cultural pacifism, direct democracy, and matriarchial leadership led to the catastrophic defeat of the pride of the civilization and almost led to universal destruction at the hands of a force the Asari state was spectacularly unwilling to prepare for and unable to face.

You know, the reasons why most war-fighting generations eschew pacifistic-liberalism establishments that led to great defeats.

And turian militarism led to pretty much the same damn thing.

Turian militarism led to a grinding attrition that
lasted from the start of the war to the end, in which the Turian
military was the only force in constant, direct conflict with the
Reapers that was never conquered. Asari pacifism led to a culture that toppled when the Reaper finally turned their attention to it. To a militarized society that is far more willing to accept heavy conflict and casualties for the ultimate victory, versus Asari society as depicted?

Not, mind you, that you actually are making a counter-argument here: whether the Turians have a counter-culture as well with a hated pre-war government (and it would be pretty easy to: militaristic cultures can blame their leaders as well, see WW1) doesn't mean the Asari won't deal with the cultural whiplash. It just means they'd have company.

Probably worse, given that Palaven was attacked at the beginning of the war and Thessia at the end. And the asari fleet certainly wasn't terribly weak; additionally, asari scientists were vital to the construction of the Crucible.

Sure... which did all of nothing to stop the Asari homeworld from falling. And why wasn't the Crucible ready to go before Thessia fell?

Ah, yes...

Relative performance compared to other groups isn't what determines whether societies have cultural rejections of the establishment, so 'they contributed their fair share' arguments are missing the point. Relative performance compared to the expectations placed on the establishment determine whether the leadership retains legitimacy or not.

The two aren't mutually exclusive. The setting also repeatedly establishes that power and influence in the Asari republics is held by the Matriarchs and their groups of influence. The laws of the Asari republics may be open to direct vote (or not: we certainly never see it in practice, and see multiple examples to the contrary), but the spheres of influence are not. Matriarch Benezia wasn't influential because she was elected: she was influential because the people who were elected listened to her.

I don't think that asari have representatives who make laws, because of the whole e-democracy thing.

Xil, the first Asari we meet in the game is a representative who makes laws. The most important Asari in the second game is also a rejection of popular authority and legitimacy.

Moreover, you confuse laws with administration. Laws aren't the only form or source of regulation, nor the only vehicle for influence.

Of course, the Reaper's history in being able to exercise absolute information control is less than inspiring... especially since the information is already off of Thesia, and possessed by factions even the Reapers couldn't completely penetrate.

It's possessed by a grand total of three people not linked to the asari government. One is me, one is my girlfriend, one doesn't seem to care at all about modern politics. All anyone else knows is that some sort of beacon was found on Thessia, not the circumstances under which it was.

Well, knowing that it was on Thessia is already a give-away. But you're also forgetting the other people who know, so... good luck with that information blockade on people outside of your control. Like, you know, the rest of the crew. Or Cerberus, who could have sold or traded the information at any point. And anyone else who might know that you don't know who knows.

But, hey, as long as you control what they think, what does the truth matter? Will you be deposing the Asari democracies yourself outright, or will you indoctrinate any who don't sufficiently curry your favor?

No need for either, as the relays aren't destroyed in Control.

They are, though admittedly they can be repaired... eventually. Time TBD.

But as the post you were quoting already set out, the only setting worth discussing a species dominance scenario in is Destroy, since the dominant faction in Control is the Reapers.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

Well, if you ignore the ones that they didn't: the Turians, the Krogan, the Salarians, and the Hanar. Those lost from attrition or sabotage, not an unorganized military establishment dedicated to hit-and-run against a foe in which anti-logistics warfare is useless.

I.e. a foe that no one could possibly have prepared for?

They were prepared for unexpected foes: that's why they weren't conquered in short order. Being unable to overwhelm the threat immediately doesn't mean they weren't better prepared than others who folded like a deck of cards.

The Turian militarism expected warfare in the future, and so preserved institutions and capabilities to engage in it: that's why even in the face of overwhelming force, they didn't fall. It's viewpoint was vindicated.

Asari pacifism expected no major warfare, actively marginalized those who tried to build up capabilities, and so fell like a pack of cards when a force (which, as your Shepard helpfully did, was warned about years in advance) came by. It's central conceit was demolished.

Thankfully for the galaxy, you aren't the only one who knows, nor do you have veto authority on everyone else who does. Keeping your mouth shut for your favored race does nothing against the other sources.

Fairly sure I'm one of only three people who does know.

You aren't, because more than three people knew about it. Some very significant people who did had plenty of opportunity and motivation to spread it further, and your common protest to the contrary you don't have a means to keep them from doing so.

[Xilizhra]

They were prepared for unexpected foes: that's why they weren't conquered in short order. Being unable to overwhelm the threat immediately doesn't mean they weren't better prepared than others who folded like a deck of cards.

The Turian militarism expected warfare in the future, and so preserved institutions and capabilities to engage in it: that's why even in the face of overwhelming force, they didn't fall. It's viewpoint was vindicated.

Asari pacifism expected no major warfare, actively marginalized those who tried to build up capabilities, and so fell like a pack of cards when a force (which, as your Shepard helpfully did, was warned about years in advance) came by. It's central conceit was demolished.

Primarily that was because the turians did most of the military heavy lifting for the Council as a whole, which would have worked wonderfully had the galaxy not been attacked by enemies that could hit everywhere at once. Again, something of an impossibility of preparing for.
Also, the turians fell rather fast, they just kept thrashing around on the ground enough to delay the Reapers.

You aren't, because more than three people knew about it. Some very significant people who did had plenty of opportunity and motivation to spread it further, and your common protest to the contrary you don't have a means to keep them from doing so.

Name and cite sources, please?

Modifié par Xilizhra, 13 août 2013 - 09:15 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

It's established in the game that Shepard sends reports back to the Alliance for Hackett or whoever else is in command for review after each mission. There's no reason to think that he/she would make an exception for the Prothean beacon that was [illegally] hidden from the public on Thessia. I certainly wouldn't leave that juicy tidbit of information out of any report, because that would be ridiculous.

I sure as hell would. I'm using my discretion as a Spectre, and I see no reason to divulge information that would damage galactic stability with no real payoff.

I don't see how letting others know about it would be to anyone's detriment other than the Asari government. I guess we'll never see eye to eye on this, because as I see it, with the Council's insufferable ineptitude, i'd gladly air out all of their dirty laundry and let the fallout run its course.

Because it would inevitably fall upon the entire asari race, which doesn't deserve that.

You know what else the Asari race doesn't deserve?

Preserving the influence and positions of the same people who were keeping the secret.


(Unless you intend to remove them by personal influence, in case there's no moral highground to stand on when you're just being a paternalist despot and dictating rules and leadership by your whims. In which case, good job inviting an insurgency.)

[Xilizhra]

You know what else the Asari race doesn't deserve?

Preserving the influence and positions of the same people who were keeping the secret.


(Unless you intend to remove them by personal influence, in case there's no moral highground to stand on when you're just being a paternalist despot and dictating rules and leadership by your whims. In which case, good job inviting an insurgency.)

No worries, I'm reasonably sure the Reapers killed them all. If not, they can be tried as individuals.

[Fixers0]

Since we've allready got Turian militarism and Asari pacifism can we now also have Alliance stupidity?

[Dean_the_Young]

Barquiel wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

It's established in the game that Shepard sends reports back to the Alliance for Hackett or whoever else is in command for review after each mission. There's no reason to think that he/she would make an exception for the Prothean beacon that was [illegally] hidden from the public on Thessia. I certainly wouldn't leave that juicy tidbit of information out of any report, because that would be ridiculous.

That's not always the case. Take, for example, the genophage cure. If Shepard sabotages it, she doesn't inform Hackett ("Careful diplomacy"). I had the impression Hackett doesn't know any details about the mission on Thessia. My Shepard wouldn't reveal it...and everyone who knows about the beacon is dead (TIM, Kai Leng), or has no interest in revealing the truth (Liara, Tevos). This issue will more than likely be thrown under the rug.

Why do you think the information died with TIM and Kai Leng?

Let's ignore the question of the squadmates talking to eachother, or that if TIM could find out others could, or the idea that some surviving Asari who did know has a guilty conscience. Let's ignore all that inconvenience and pretend perfect conspiracies can work.

Why in the world would you believe TIM and Kai Leng (and the Cerberus pilot, and the Vendetta VI once recovered by the Alliance, and the scientists who worked on it) keep it a secret for the Asari, rather than sell/trade/use it as a weapon?

[Xilizhra]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

It's established in the game that Shepard sends reports back to the Alliance for Hackett or whoever else is in command for review after each mission. There's no reason to think that he/she would make an exception for the Prothean beacon that was [illegally] hidden from the public on Thessia. I certainly wouldn't leave that juicy tidbit of information out of any report, because that would be ridiculous.

That's not always the case. Take, for example, the genophage cure. If Shepard sabotages it, she doesn't inform Hackett ("Careful diplomacy"). I had the impression Hackett doesn't know any details about the mission on Thessia. My Shepard wouldn't reveal it...and everyone who knows about the beacon is dead (TIM, Kai Leng), or has no interest in revealing the truth (Liara, Tevos). This issue will more than likely be thrown under the rug.

Why do you think the information died with TIM and Kai Leng?

Let's ignore the question of the squadmates talking to eachother, or that if TIM could find out others could, or the idea that some surviving Asari who did know has a guilty conscience. Let's ignore all that inconvenience and pretend perfect conspiracies can work.

Why in the world would you believe TIM and Kai Leng (and the Cerberus pilot, and the Vendetta VI once recovered by the Alliance, and the scientists who worked on it) keep it a secret for the Asari, rather than sell/trade/use it as a weapon?

Cerberus has never shown any interest in asari politics and doesn't work with anyone else it would trade to, so far as I can tell (at least not after Omega), Vendetta is likely to go up in smoke along with Cronos Station (currently being blown away by the united fleets), and the scientists were all killed by Kai Leng.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

They were prepared for unexpected foes: that's why they weren't conquered in short order. Being unable to overwhelm the threat immediately doesn't mean they weren't better prepared than others who folded like a deck of cards.

The Turian militarism expected warfare in the future, and so preserved institutions and capabilities to engage in it: that's why even in the face of overwhelming force, they didn't fall. It's viewpoint was vindicated.

Asari pacifism expected no major warfare, actively marginalized those who tried to build up capabilities, and so fell like a pack of cards when a force (which, as your Shepard helpfully did, was warned about years in advance) came by. It's central conceit was demolished.

Primarily that was because the turians did most of the military heavy lifting for the Council as a whole, which would have worked wonderfully had the galaxy not been attacked by enemies that could hit everywhere at once. Again, something of an impossibility of preparing for.

Sure. And?

Saying that things would have been fine if only that unexpected enemy from the other 99% of unexplored space hadn't come out really doesn't change the fact that the Asari were not prepared to face an unexpected challenge while the Turians were.

Which is kind of the issue and reason people would think the old ways are bad.

Also, the turians fell rather fast, they just kept thrashing around on the ground enough to delay the Reapers.

If by 'fall' you mean 'were in constant warfare for the homeworld and still didn't lose it all,' sure.

We'll have to invent a new word for the Asari, though, to encapsulate the relative difference. Dug their own grave and buried themselves in it before the war started?

You aren't, because more than three people knew about it. Some very significant people who did had plenty of opportunity and motivation to spread it further, and your common protest to the contrary you don't have a means to keep them from doing so.

Name and cite sources, please?

The Reapers (Mass Effect 3, via control)
Third Squad Mate of Thessia (Mass Effect 3.)
EDI (Mass Effect 3)
Multiple unnamed matriarchs, scientists, and government officials. (Mass Effect 3)
Kai Leng (Mass Effect 3)
Kai Leng's unnamed pilot (Mass Effect 3)
The Illusive Man (Mass Effect 3)
Unnamed Cerberus scientists and data logs involved with it (Mass Effect 3)

I'll point out that the previous four had time, opportunity, and motive to not just sit on the information.

For other potential leaks,

Other squadmates who learned from Liara/3rd Squad Mate
Any Asari involved in the conspiracy with a guilty conscience
Any other intelligence agencies who found it through similar means as Cerberus/found it from Cerberus
Cerberus remnants involved with finding it in the first place
Alliance technicians with access to Cerberus's files after Atlas
Potential technical analysis of the Beacon previous usages

The Prothean VI itself.