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[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

You know what else the Asari race doesn't deserve?

Preserving the influence and positions of the same people who were keeping the secret.


(Unless you intend to remove them by personal influence, in case there's no moral highground to stand on when you're just being a paternalist despot and dictating rules and leadership by your whims. In which case, good job inviting an insurgency.)

No worries, I'm reasonably sure the Reapers killed them all.

Why?

High-ranking officials with super-top-secret information would be the best placed and most able to avoid being killed by the Reapers.

If not, they can be tried as individuals.

Dictatorial it is, but on what charges?

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

There are Asari leaders who decided to continue keeping it hidden yes? I find it hard to believe that a group decided to hide the beacon, they die, and nobody else knew...oh wait Tevos told you of Matriarchs who knew of the hidden beacon. So there are people who are guilty since somebody obviously made the decision to continue hiding Prothean tech from the galaxy.

What I'm saying is that they were probably killed by the Reapers when they hit Thessia, the same way that the turian primarch went down. If they weren't all killed, cool; go investigate that and see who's involved, if anyone.

The Turian Primarch went down because it was still early in the war and the Reapers blitzed Earth and Palaven before the galaxy was really aware of what was happening. Once the initial shock was off, the senior leadership didn't change again.

By the time Thessia comes around, everyone in the know knows that the Reapers are advancing on Thessia. It wasn't a surprise.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

"The asari" wouldn't be punished at all, because by far the vast majority of them didn't have a clue what was happening.

So?

The Asari's own position on this is that collective identity and punishment are the proper and just thing to do when it comes to the crimes of governments. Since these are policies supported by a direct democracy in peace, the Asari populace most likely have a similar consensus. They've certainly supported the politicians and policies that push this on the rest of the galaxy.

[Xilizhra]

Sure. And?

Saying that things would have been fine if only that unexpected enemy from the other 99% of unexplored space hadn't come out really doesn't change the fact that the Asari were not prepared to face an unexpected challenge while the Turians were.

Which is kind of the issue and reason people would think the old ways are bad.

Of course, in Control, the whole issue is moot.

If by 'fall' you mean 'were in constant warfare for the homeworld and still didn't lose it all,' sure.

We'll have to invent a new word for the Asari, though, to encapsulate the relative difference. Dug their own grave and buried themselves in it before the war started?

Nah. They were blitzed right before the war ended.

Why?

High-ranking officials with super-top-secret information would be the best placed and most able to avoid being killed by the Reapers.

They also tend to be early targets.

Dictatorial it is, but on what charges?

So, enforcing the laws you want enforced is dicatorial now? I'm confused.

The Turian Primarch went down because it was still early in the war and the Reapers blitzed Earth and Palaven before the galaxy was really aware of what was happening. Once the initial shock was off, the senior leadership didn't change again.

By the time Thessia comes around, everyone in the know knows that the Reapers are advancing on Thessia. It wasn't a surprise.

The Reapers are also advancing everywhere else, so it doesn't seem as though leaving Thessia would be safer.

So?

The Asari's own position on this is that collective identity and punishment are the proper and just thing to do when it comes to the crimes of governments. Since these are policies supported by a direct democracy in peace, the Asari populace most likely have a similar consensus. They've certainly supported the politicians and policies that push this on the rest of the galaxy.

That's nice. I'm not asari. If the Republics vote to punish themselves on it, well, okay.

[Dean_the_Young]

[quote]Xilizhra wrote...

[quote]Sure. And?

Saying that things would have been fine if only that unexpected enemy from the other 99% of unexplored space hadn't come out really doesn't change the fact that the Asari were not prepared to face an unexpected challenge while the Turians were.

Which is kind of the issue and reason people would think the old ways are bad.[/quote]
Of course, in Control, the whole issue is moot.[/quote]And in control, the Reapers are a dominant race.

Of course, we aren't talking about the cultural effects in Control. We're talking about the cultural effects in Destroy.
[quote]
[quote]If by 'fall' you mean 'were in constant warfare for the homeworld and still didn't lose it all,' sure.

We'll have to invent a new word for the Asari, though, to encapsulate the relative difference. Dug their own grave and buried themselves in it before the war started?[/quote]
Nah. They were blitzed right before the war ended.[/quote]A blitz is a sudden rush. The Reaper campaign towards Thessia was being mentioned since before Rannoch.

We also don't know how long the war continued after Thessia fell: there's no time frame of reference.
[quote]
[quote]Why?

High-ranking officials with super-top-secret information would be the best placed and most able to avoid being killed by the Reapers.[/quote]
They also tend to be early targets.[/quote]Thessia wasn't an early target, Xil.

[quote]
[quote]Dictatorial it is, but on what charges?[/quote]
So, enforcing the laws you want enforced is dicatorial now? I'm confused.[/quote]Is enforcing the laws you want on the basis of your armada of genocidal robots, liberal brainwashing of dissidents, information controls and subversions of justice for political convenience, and witch-hunting individuals  for secret crimes, dictatorial?

Why yes Xil. Yes it is.


[quote]
The Reapers are also advancing everywhere else, so it doesn't seem as though leaving Thessia would be safer.[/quote]The Reapers aren't advancing everywhere else until the very end of the game, Xil. There are safe areas remaining until post-Chronus, which would be a point of 'last week of the war'... a period in which influential and wealthy people could remain safe and hidden from the Reapers by various means.
[quote]
[quote]So?

The Asari's own position on this is that collective identity and punishment are the proper and just thing to do when it comes to the crimes of governments. Since these are policies supported by a direct democracy in peace, the Asari populace most likely have a similar consensus. They've certainly supported the politicians and policies that push this on the rest of the galaxy.[/quote]
That's nice. I'm not asari. If the Republics vote to punish themselves on it, well, okay.[/quote]So you're protecting the Asari culture against values and principles they claimed to hold dear by force of sheer cultural chauvinism. Gotcha.

I'm sure they'd appreciate that... if they knew what you were protecting them from, and not trying to purge a good number of their most influential remaining leaders who were just a short time ago leading the resistance against your enforcers.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 13 août 2013 - 10:09 .

[Xilizhra]

A blitz is a sudden rush. The Reaper campaign towards Thessia was being mentioned since before Rannoch.

We also don't know how long the war continued after Thessia fell: there's no time frame of reference.

Not strictly speaking, but after Thessia, the narrative is paced rather fast, with the journey to Horizon and then to Cronos Station being presented as though it's one intense chase.

Thessia wasn't an early target, Xil.

Early targets in the planetary attack.

Is enforcing the laws you want on the basis of your armada of genocidal robots, liberal brainwashing of dissidents, information controls and subversions of justice for political convenience, and witch-hunting individuals for secret crimes, dictatorial?

Why yes. Yes it is.

No, the laws you want to enforce; I personally am content to let the matter more or less drop.

The Reapers aren't advancing everywhere else until the very end of the game, Xil. There are safe areas remaining.

The Athena Nebula is accessible after either Tuchanka or the coup, and is heavily Reaper-threatened throughout. They've moved on rather fast.

So you're protecting the Asari culture against values and principles they claimed to hold dear by force of sheer cultural chauvinism. Gotcha.

I'm sure they'd appreciate that... if they knew what you were protecting them from, and not trying to purge a good number of their most influential remaining leaders who were just a short time ago leading the resistance against your enforcers.

Erm, I'm not entirely sure which scenario you're working off of here.

[In Exile]

I dunno, the Alliance could be the sub. It really depends who they're with?

[crimzontearz]

if they canonize synthesis then race does not matter

if they canonize Control then yes especially if Shepard was renegade

if they canonize Destroy no since the alliance is likely the most affected by it all

if the reboot then obviously not

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

You, know Dean, I find it ironic that everyone is willing to jump all over the Asari for hiding that beacon. Everyone's technology is equal to the Asari's by this time. The only reason the Asari hid the beacon, and you can check the codex if you do not believe me, is that they wanted the rest of the galaxy to believe that they achieved their level of technology on their own without the aid of the beacon. Big whoop. They made that decision over 2000 years ago.

The existence of Vendetta wasn't even known until the Crucible was being built. The Vendetta VI was programmed to activate when the Crucible reached a certain stage. The Crucible's plans were located where? On Mars. So after a while Vendetta activated, and the Asari noticed, contacted Councilor Tevos or Irissa and then she contacted you.

How Cerberus found out? That wasn't the Asari's fault. I think that was your artistic laziness' fault for not wanting to design an Asari Councilor's office. Thus allow for a derp and allowing for C-sec to miss a Cerberus bug in Udina's office.

And they didn't jump to the aid of Earth in the beginning? That's another thing to blame them for?

[Made Nightwing]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

You, know Dean, I find it ironic that everyone is willing to jump all over the Asari for hiding that beacon. Everyone's technology is equal to the Asari's by this time. The only reason the Asari hid the beacon, and you can check the codex if you do not believe me, is that they wanted the rest of the galaxy to believe that they achieved their level of technology on their own without the aid of the beacon. Big whoop. They made that decision over 2000 years ago.

The existence of Vendetta wasn't even known until the Crucible was being built. The Vendetta VI was programmed to activate when the Crucible reached a certain stage. The Crucible's plans were located where? On Mars. So after a while Vendetta activated, and the Asari noticed, contacted Councilor Tevos or Irissa and then she contacted you.

How Cerberus found out? That wasn't the Asari's fault. I think that was your artistic laziness' fault for not wanting to design an Asari Councilor's office. Thus allow for a derp and allowing for C-sec to miss a Cerberus bug in Udina's office.

And they didn't jump to the aid of Earth in the beginning? That's another thing to blame them for?

Shotgun. The asari created/helped create laws that force EVERY race in the galaxy to share their prothean technology. Every little scrap. Beacons, ruins, the lot. The Alliance had to disclose all its data, as did the turians, salarians (although they probably kept a lot of stuff) etc. An entire corporation was levelled and a high ranked PMC assassinated because they tried keeping prothean tech for themselves.

The asari matriarchs, the mediators, teachers and guiders of galactic society, proved themselves to be a group of colossal hypocrites, liars and cheats who violated their own laws for their own profit. Hell yeah people are willing to jump on the asari about it. Imagine if it had been known about in ME1 or 2. Shepard could have gone to Vendetta and gotten concrete evidence that the Reapers were coming straight from the VI's mouth. Then Thessia might not have gotten so badly mauled. They kept their technology for themselves, whilst forcing everyone else to give up theirs for public access. And the asari still have superior tech to everyone else. The turians definitely have the budget to create a dozen Destiny Ascensions, they just don't have the tech.

Because the asari didn't give it to them.

And that cost the turians millions of lives.

Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if the turians were the most pissed off. They're not a terribly secretive society.

[MrFob]

Answering to the general topic:
If the next ME was a sequel, I'd really like to see a political clean slate.
All the races took losses during the war but the most powerful races (i.e. the Asari, the Turians and the Humans) were hit the hardest. (I am taking out the Salarians as wild card who might even make great villains for a future ME.)
Anyway, basically everyone's forces are diminished to almost nothing but especially the council races now have a lot of territory to protect. So, the smaller factions, like the Hannar and the Volus could try and seize the opportunity to get on an equal footing while the larger powers struggle to maintain internal order and get back on their feet. Meanwhile, there could also quickly arise some resentment between the larger powers over things that happened during the war (like, as discussed here, the whole thing with the Asari beacon or what to with the Citadel). And at that point, we didn't even mention the Terminus Systems yet.
All in all, the whole situation could quickly become politically volatile which would make an excellent background setting for a game where you play some sort of agent of one of these factions.

So to answer the question, no, definitely the alliance should not be dominant. There should be a feel of almost anarchy in the galaxy after the war and the player's task should be to prevent an all out war as all the races are trying to scramble back to their feet.

[Xilizhra]

The asari matriarchs, the mediators, teachers and guiders of galactic society, proved themselves to be a group of colossal hypocrites, liars and cheats who violated their own laws for their own profit. Hell yeah people are willing to jump on the asari about it. Imagine if it had been known about in ME1 or 2. Shepard could have gone to Vendetta and gotten concrete evidence that the Reapers were coming straight from the VI's mouth. Then Thessia might not have gotten so badly mauled. They kept their technology for themselves, whilst forcing everyone else to give up theirs for public access. And the asari still have superior tech to everyone else. The turians definitely have the budget to create a dozen Destiny Ascensions, they just don't have the tech.

Some of the matriarchs. Not all of them, just a few. It doesn't reflect at all on the wider race.

[Barquiel]

Made Nightwing wrote...
They kept their technology for themselves, whilst forcing everyone else to give up theirs for public access. And the asari still have superior tech to everyone else. The turians definitely have the budget to create a dozen Destiny Ascensions, they just don't have the tech.

Because the asari didn't give it to them.

And that cost the turians millions of lives.

Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if the turians were the most pissed off. They're not a terribly secretive society.

All advanced galactic civilizations are based on Prothean technology (to quote Nihlus). It's one of the first things we've learned in ME1. And suddenly it's a great surprise that the Asari have learned something from a prothean beacon?

All citadel races have their prothean data archives (or they were uplifted like the Elcor), and it doesn't make any sense that the prothean technology stored on Thessia is somehow better/more advanced than the prothean technology stored on Mars or Palavan.

And then there is the beacon itself. We're told it belonged to a scientist and was locked for one reason or another. Javik says it's "the memory of one of his people". We're also told that the Asari couldn't activate the beacon, as the races in our cycle were not evolved to the same mental capability of the Protheans. Did the prothean scientist assume the asari would evolve it, or that some protheans would emerge from stasis to activate it? And if the Asari couldn't activate the beacon...how did they learn anything (that makes them more advanced than the other races)? Why would the beacon grant technological advances to the asari without warning them about the Reapers? Now it is possible that they have been deriving their technological head start simply from studying the operation of the beacon, rather than actually accessing the information it contained...but that is obviously just headcanon (and it definitely doesn't explain their superior tech because the Alliance obviously had no trouble activating the prothean data archives on Mars...and accessing the information it contained).

Modifié par Barquiel, 14 août 2013 - 11:16 .

[Astartes Marine]

Made Nightwing wrote...
Shotgun. The asari created/helped create laws that force EVERY race in the galaxy to share their prothean technology. Every little scrap. Beacons, ruins, the lot. The Alliance had to disclose all its data, as did the turians, salarians (although they probably kept a lot of stuff) etc. An entire corporation was levelled and a high ranked PMC assassinated because they tried keeping prothean tech for themselves.

The asari matriarchs, the mediators, teachers and guiders of galactic society, proved themselves to be a group of colossal hypocrites, liars and cheats who violated their own laws for their own profit. Hell yeah people are willing to jump on the asari about it. Imagine if it had been known about in ME1 or 2. Shepard could have gone to Vendetta and gotten concrete evidence that the Reapers were coming straight from the VI's mouth. Then Thessia might not have gotten so badly mauled. They kept their technology for themselves, whilst forcing everyone else to give up theirs for public access. And the asari still have superior tech to everyone else. The turians definitely have the budget to create a dozen Destiny Ascensions, they just don't have the tech.

Because the asari didn't give it to them.

And that cost the turians millions of lives.

Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if the turians were the most pissed off. They're not a terribly secretive society.

If I could "Like" or thumb-up posts I'd do so for this, I certainly do agree with your sentiments.

[KaiserShep]

There's no point rationalizing and making excuses for hiding the beacon. Aside from being illegal, it was a grave mistake that nearly cost everything. Had it been accessible to someone who was actively seeking any and all information the Protheans left behind, like the one Asari who actually was helping Shepard, millions of deaths would likely have been avoided.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 14 août 2013 - 12:05 .

[Barquiel]

Liara: I've studied Protheans my entire life. If I'd been shown the beacon on Thessia earlier...
EDI: You would have needed Shepard's cipher to comprehend it.

Maybe Liara is smarter than all the scientists who've studied the beacon and she could have learned from it without the cipher. But it is also possible that Shepard would never have been sent to retrieve the beacon (that only happened because Thessia was under siege, and the mission was dangerous), so it would never have activated.

[Helios969]

Wouldn't it be dependent on how you played? A ruthless Shep could make the Alliance top dog if he/she weakens the counsel races during me1, sabotages the genophage cure to diminish Krogan numbers and by extension the Turians, rewrite the Geth Heretics and then side with them against the Quarians, and finally shoot the tube to eliminate the Geth altogether. The Citadel is now situated above Earth making it the central trading hub. Of course Leviathan's the one really in charge...mind-controlling the politicians and the media who in turn mind-control the population.

[CronoDragoon]

Only if I'm not a part of it. I always prefer to play for the underdog team.

[mass perfection]

Who cares?The narrative is broken before the ending.

[Br3admax]

Barquiel wrote...

Liara: I've studied Protheans my entire life. If I'd been shown the beacon on Thessia earlier...
EDI: You would have needed Shepard's cipher to comprehend it.

Maybe Liara is smarter than all the scientists who've studied the beacon and she could have learned from it without the cipher. But it is also possible that Shepard would never have been sent to retrieve the beacon (that only happened because Thessia was under siege, and the mission was dangerous), so it would never have activated.

Shepard was not sent because Thessia was under siege. That happened on the trip there. Shepard was sent only to find the Catalyst. 

[SeaSquared]

AlanC9 wrote...

If anything, wouldn't it be the salarians? Their economy hasn't been all that badly damaged compared to the other races'.

says who? salarians don't come across as being a dominating force (for a council race) anyway, they may be on better footing now though.

[Alien Number Six]

Only if the Systems Alliance replaced the Council as the seat of galaxy wide goverment. To be honest if you cured the Krogen, saved only the Geth and saved the Rachni the Humans could be toast. Human numbers would be low after the Reaper invasion. Factor in that the Geth build themselves and the Krogen and Rachni out breed us a thousand to one the Humans would be on the ropes as soon as a war breaks out. Which it will......

[grimunsol]

I think it should be that the citadel upgraded to more like a united nations.

[grimunsol]

as to Who (mass perfection ) cares? The narrative is broken before the ending. and (Helios969 ) Wouldn't it be dependent on how you played? A ruthless Shep could make the Alliance top dog if he/she weakens the counsel races during me1, sabotages the genophage cure to diminish Krogan numbers and by extension the Turians, rewrite the Geth Heretics and then side with them against the Quarians, and finally shoot the tube to eliminate the Geth altogether. The Citadel is now situated above Earth making it the central trading hub. Of course Leviathan's the one really in charge...mind-controlling the politicians and the media who in turn mind-control the population. "

with some relation to Alien Number Six by renegade ending. choices is turian , alliance , or krogan perhaps

by paragon (Barquiel ,KaiserShep , Astartes Marine ) is asari , salarian , and eclor
by neutral is to quarian, geth by synthesis sort . maybe

[grimunsol]

turians , alliance , krogan seem more renegade pherhaps with batarians n vorcha fit somewhere down the line .