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[David7204]

The comment Alan was quoting that was complaining because the game 'tells' you which actions are Paragon and which are Renegade.

[Rawgrim]

David7204 wrote...

The comment Alan was quoting that was complaining because the game 'tells' you which actions are Paragon and which are Renegade.

That would be "spoonfeeding".

[David7204]

No, that really wouldn't 'be' anything. The idea that every other medium is free to 'tell' the reader or audience ideals and that video games are forbidden from doing so is absurd. A video game is not obligated to never do anything that might contradict your personal viewpoints by the sole virtue of it being a video game.

Modifié par David7204, 11 août 2013 - 09:59 .

[AresKeith]

David7204 wrote...

The comment Alan was quoting that was complaining because the game 'tells' you which actions are Paragon and which are Renegade.

DAO doesn't do that and it's works out perfectly 

[Rawgrim]

David7204 wrote...

No, that really wouldn't 'be' anything. The idea that every other medium is free to 'tell' the reader or audience ideals and that video games are forbidden from doing so is absurd. A video game is not obligated to never do anything that might contradict your personal viewpoints by the sole virtue of it being a video game.

Well movies, for example, doesn`t add an angel-wing symbol next to characters that does good things, in order for the audience to know the fellow is doing something nice.

[David7204]

Yes, they basically do. They're not quite as explicit. But they do the exact same thing through dialogue, tone, music, and all sorts of subtle clues. All mediums of fiction do, and they're far better for it, not worse.

Modifié par David7204, 11 août 2013 - 10:04 .

[Rawgrim]

David7204 wrote...

Yes, they basically do. They're not quite as explicit. But they do the exact same thing through dialogue, tone, music, and all sorts of subtle clues. All mediums of fiction do, and they're far better for it, not worse.

Disney movies, maybe. I don`t remember any happy music when Gorman decides to try and save Vasquez in Aliens,for example.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

Yes, they basically do. They're not quite as explicit. But they do the exact same thing through dialogue, tone, music, and all sorts of subtle clues. All mediums of fiction do, and they're far better for it, not worse.

BS. Straight BS.

Have you played Dragon Age David? I don't think you've played Dragon Age.

And no, it's not inherently better. I prefer to determine for myself what is good and what is bad. Hamfisted stories to the contrary tend to not hold a lot of interest.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 11 août 2013 - 10:08 .

[David7204]

Did I say every single work of fiction does it at every single moment possible? No. So that examples proves or indicates utterly nothing.

Let's use your example. I haven't actually seen Aliens. But I'm guessing the story never wavers in supporting Sigourney Weaver as 'right.' As justified in defending herself. Doesn't she say "Get away from her, you b!tch!" at one point in time? The narrative is clear - She's a Mama Bear, and we're supposed to support her and like her.

Modifié par David7204, 11 août 2013 - 10:11 .

[Rawgrim]

David7204 wrote...

Did I say every single work of fiction does it at every single moment possible? No. So that examples proves or indicates utterly nothing.

Let's use your example. I haven't actually seen Aliens. But I'm guessing the story never wavers in supporting Sigourney Weaver as 'right.' As justified in defending herself. Doesn't she say "Get away from her, you b!tch!" at one point in time? The narrative is clear - She's a Mama Bear, and we're supposed to support her and like her.

She yells it to the alien queen at the end, when the queen tries to kill a little girl. This is after Weaver uses a flamethrower on all of the queen`s eggs, however.

[AresKeith]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Yes, they basically do. They're not quite as explicit. But they do the exact same thing through dialogue, tone, music, and all sorts of subtle clues. All mediums of fiction do, and they're far better for it, not worse.

BS. Straight BS.

Have you played Dragon Age David? I don't think you've played Dragon Age.

And no, it's not inherently better. I prefer to determine for myself what is good and what is bad. Hamfisted stories to the contrary tend to not hold a lot of interest.

Come on, we all know he's never played Dragon Age

Only Mass Effect 

[David7204]

Rawgrim wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Did I say every single work of fiction does it at every single moment possible? No. So that examples proves or indicates utterly nothing.

Let's use your example. I haven't actually seen Aliens. But I'm guessing the story never wavers in supporting Sigourney Weaver as 'right.' As justified in defending herself. Doesn't she say "Get away from her, you b!tch!" at one point in time? The narrative is clear - She's a Mama Bear, and we're supposed to support her and like her.

She yells it to the alien queen at the end, when the queen tries to kill a little girl. This is after Weaver uses a flamethrower on all of the queen`s eggs, however.

Okay? And? The point is, the narrative makes it clear that the girl should be saved and Sigourney Weaver is justified in defending her. Whether you actually agree with those themes is irrelavent. The point is, they exist.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

Did I say every single work of fiction does it at every single moment possible? No. So that examples proves or indicates utterly nothing.

Let's use your example. I haven't actually seen Aliens. But I'm guessing the story never wavers in supporting Sigourney Weaver as 'right.' As justified in defending herself. Doesn't she say "Get away from her, you b!tch!" at one point in time? The narrative is clear - She's a Mama Bear, and we're supposed to support her and like her.

There is no 'right' or 'wrong' in Aliens (which further shows how you haven't seen it).

It's a movie about Marines fighting some Aliens that exist for no other purpose than to self-replicate and exist.

There is no clear narrative here. Watch the movie.

You're making statements and claims about things you've never seen or haven't played or didn't read or whatever.

That's what angry fat old dudes do on Fox News. Are you an angry fat old dude on Fox News?

[Rawgrim]

I`d be hard pressed to think of any rpgs that just flat out tells the player what is right or wrong, as in your face as ME does it.

[ElitePinecone]

David7204 wrote...

This is ultimately the core of the issue, I think. Or at least one issue. The very absurd idea that any meaningful message within a video game is 'shoved down your throat.' The idea that a developer must not be put any meaningful themes within a story, because that's 'shoving them down your throat.'

This is literally so far away from the core of the EMS issue, I don't even.

The implementation or mechanics of War Assets has nothing to do with morality or the messages developers are trying to send. 

[Rawgrim]

David7204 wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Did I say every single work of fiction does it at every single moment possible? No. So that examples proves or indicates utterly nothing.

Let's use your example. I haven't actually seen Aliens. But I'm guessing the story never wavers in supporting Sigourney Weaver as 'right.' As justified in defending herself. Doesn't she say "Get away from her, you b!tch!" at one point in time? The narrative is clear - She's a Mama Bear, and we're supposed to support her and like her.

She yells it to the alien queen at the end, when the queen tries to kill a little girl. This is after Weaver uses a flamethrower on all of the queen`s eggs, however.

Okay? And? The point is, the narrative makes it clear that the girl should be saved and Sigourney Weaver is justified in defending her. Whether you actually agree with those themes is irrelavent. The point is, they exist.

Or...is the alien queen right in trying to avenge her children? Its not black and white. Watch the movie.

[David7204]

The same could be said of any story in existence. Is the Scar right in killing Mufasa? Is the hunter right in shooting Bambi? Is the Joker right in killing everyone? It's not black and white!

Modifié par David7204, 11 août 2013 - 10:21 .

[Rawgrim]

David7204 wrote...

The same could be said of any story in existence. Is the Scar right in killing Mufasa? Is the hunter right in shooting Bambi? Is the Joker right in killing everyone? It's not black and white!

That is where motives comes into play.  Try again.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

The same could be said of any story in existence. Is the Scar right in killing Mufasa?

Does he have a legitimate plan for the pride that will benefit the others?

Is the hunter right in shooting Bambi?

Maybe the hunter is just trying to feed his family. 

Is the Joker right in killing everyone?

Is he objectively wrong?

There is no black-and-white morality in the universe. It's all grey. Even Star Wars has adopted this with its works. 

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 11 août 2013 - 10:24 .

[ElitePinecone]

David, your discussion about morality really has nothing to do with this thread. Why did you bring it up?

It's only dragged the conversation off-topic, for absolutely no reason.

[David7204]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

The same could be said of any story in existence. Is the Scar right in killing Mufasa?

Does he have a legitimate plan for the pride that will benefit the others?

Is the hunter right in shooting Bambi?

Maybe the hunter is just trying to feed his family. 

Is the Joker right in killing everyone?

Is he objectively wrong?

There is no black-and-white morality in the universe. It's all grey. Even Star Wars has adopted this with its works. 

And yet, that doesn't stop works of fiction from including messages that the Joker is wrong. That Scar is wrong.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

ElitePinecone wrote...

David, your discussion about morality really has nothing to do with this thread. Why did you bring it up?

It's only dragged the conversation off-topic, for absolutely no reason.

David does this a lot. 

This is a Dragon Age forum, and he come's in trying to bring in Mass Effect.

[Ziggeh]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

This is a Dragon Age forum, and he come's in trying to bring in Mass Effect.

In fairness, this is a discussion about a system we've seen in ME3 and expect to see something somewhat analogous in DAI.

Quite what his point has to do with the EMS system is anyones guess.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

The same could be said of any story in existence. Is the Scar right in killing Mufasa?

Does he have a legitimate plan for the pride that will benefit the others?

Is the hunter right in shooting Bambi?

Maybe the hunter is just trying to feed his family. 

Is the Joker right in killing everyone?

Is he objectively wrong?

There is no black-and-white morality in the universe. It's all grey. Even Star Wars has adopted this with its works. 

And yet, that doesn't stop works of fiction from including messages that the Joker is wrong. That Scar is wrong.

Well, I think those messages are biased to say the least. Depending on the circumstance, they might even be wrong.

Did the Dark Knight really try to portray the Joker as wrong? I thought DK was a lot darker than that. It seemed more like he was trying to get the people of Gotham to fall victim to their own evil.

Scar is from a Disney movie for children. Children typically don't understand more abstract concepts all that well. That and talking animals.

[Dubozz]

Wow Devid finds dragon age forum.