211 réponses à ce sujet

[David7204]

A story is not obligated to be neutral. Stories are not journalism.

In fact, I would say the exact opposite. For a story to be meaningful, it can't be neutral.

A theme or idea by definition cannot be neutral.

Modifié par David7204, 11 août 2013 - 10:36 .

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Davey have you even played Dragon Age yet?

[Rawgrim]

As several people have asked: what does this have to do with the ems system?

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

A story is not obligated to be neutral. Stories are not journalism.

They're not. But they're not obligated to not be neutral either.

In fact, I would say the exact opposite. For a story to be meaningful, it can't be neutral.

Thank you for telling us your opinion. And I disagree. So do others here.

A theme or idea by definition cannot be neutral.

But a story can be neutral in how it presents idea's an themes. Many times, it will present several perspectives on an idea or a theme and leave it up to the player to decide which is best. In fact, stories are typically lauded for doing this.

A good example is Fallout New Vegas. NV does this very well. Dragon Age does it even better.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 11 août 2013 - 11:15 .

[David7204]

Not true in the slightest. New Vegas, particularly the DLCs, has plenty of themes that aren't portrayed neutrally at all. In any case, it's hardly as if New Vegas is a perfect story or anything remotely close.

Really, this seems to just be you twisting the defintion of 'neutral' to suit your argument.

Modifié par David7204, 11 août 2013 - 10:49 .

[Rawgrim]

Planescape Torment can be very neutral. Ultima 4 and Fallout NV can be too.

[Ravensword]

AresKeith wrote...

David7204 wrote...

The comment Alan was quoting that was complaining because the game 'tells' you which actions are Paragon and which are Renegade.

DAO doesn't do that and it's works out perfectly 

Which is probably why David refuses to play DA:O.

[Rawgrim]

David7204 wrote...

Not true in the slightest. New Vegas, particularly the DLCs, has plenty of themes that aren't portrayed neutrally at all. In any case, it's hardly as if New Vegas is a perfect story or anything remotely close.

Really, this seems to just be you twisting the defintion of 'neutral' to suit your argument.

The main sotryline can be done in a very neutral way. But YES. There are, of course, things in the game that can be viewed as very black or white.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

David why haven't you played Dragon Age yet?

More importantly why do you keep coming to the Dragon Age forum to discuss how superhappyfunawesome ME and its perfect, brave, kind, CHARACTERS are?

[David7204]

How about we stop using the term 'black and white' to despite any explicit theme that the narrative holds a message on? Because it's faulty and misleading.

Modifié par David7204, 11 août 2013 - 10:54 .

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

David7204 wrote...

How about we stop using the term 'black and white' to despite any explicit theme that the narrative holds a message on? Because it's faulty and misleading.

Sure whatever.

Now tell us why you haven't played Dragon Age.

[Rawgrim]

David7204 wrote...

How about we stop using the term 'black and white' to despite any explicit theme that the narrative holds a message on? Because it's faulty and misleading.

How about sticking to the topic about the EMS system, instead of trying to just derail the thread?

[Babaganoosh013]

If they have something like that, as long as online play has a MUCH significantly reduced role in it (if any) I don't really have a problem with it.

[AresKeith]

Rawgrim wrote...

David7204 wrote...

How about we stop using the term 'black and white' to despite any explicit theme that the narrative holds a message on? Because it's faulty and misleading.

How about sticking to the topic about the EMS system, instead of trying to just derail the thread?

I really don't understand why he does this

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Hey Davey when you do get around to playing Dragon Age you should make sure you pick Harrowmont.

His epilogue is so heroic!

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

Not true in the slightest. New Vegas, particularly the DLCs, has plenty of themes that aren't portrayed neutrally at all. In any case, it's hardly as if New Vegas is a perfect story or anything remotely close.

It is true. Completely true. Why are you bringing up NV in the DA threads? 

Not that I agree with you at all.

Really, this seems to just be you twisting the defintion of 'neutral' to suit your argument.

I'm not twisting the definition of neutral. I'm saying that it works to service an interactive story by presenting all possibilities equally. Leaving the player to question what is right or wrong, and leaving them to decide for themselves what the better path is. 

It's subjective. Not objective.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 11 août 2013 - 11:14 .

[David7204]

Dead Money. Has very clear themes that greed and anger will imprison you and letting go will set you free. It's not ambiguous. It's not neutral. There's no theme of 'greed and anger might be good sometimes...' No.

Old World Blues. Has very clear themes of looking to the future to make it better. It's not ambiguous. It's not neutral. There's no theme of 'Well, the future sucks so it might be better to turn into a recluse obsessed with the past.' It's a very clear.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Davey why do you keep derailing threads in the DA section with your drivel?

[Milan92]

David7204 wrote...

Dead Money. Has very clear themes that greed and anger will imprison you and letting go will set you free. It's not ambiguous. It's not neutral. There's no theme of 'greed and anger might be good sometimes...' No.

Old World Blues. Has very clear themes of looking to the future to make it better. It's not ambiguous. It's not neutral. There's no theme of 'Well, the future sucks so it might be better to turn into a recluse obsessed with the past.' It's a very clear.

Since its clear that your lost, the New Vegas forums are that way man ---------->

Next time don't be shy! Just ask for directions if you can't find it 

To come back on topic, yes I would appreciate it if we don't get a similar system.

Modifié par Milan92, 11 août 2013 - 11:11 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Hey Davey when you do get around to playing Dragon Age you should make sure you pick Harrowmont.

His epilogue is so heroic!

Or let Jowan go! Or kill Connor (the damn abomination who would make deals with demons!) Or execute the Templar scum Alistair for challenging the beautiful Queen Anora! Or helping the werewolves kill the treacherous Dalish! Or allowing the city elves to sabotage the humanitarian mission set up by the Tevinter mages in the Denerim Alienage!

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 11 août 2013 - 11:13 .

[TheRealJayDee]

I apologize for posting off-topic and I strongly recommend we get back to the actual point of the thread before this gets locked or someone gets banned, but I gott ask: David, where's your EDI avatar? Someone (might've been Maria?) posted a link to a "how to get a custom avatar" explanation as well as some fitting EDI avatar pictures when last you asked about this (here on the DA:I section, nonetheless). It will confuse me big time seeing you with an avi, but if it makes you happy I'm all for it!

Also please stop derailing this discussion, dude!

[LinksOcarina]

AlanC9 wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...
EMS is a mechanical stat at best. There is no reason to see them in action that way. Logistically it would be difficult to convey it with so many instances involved.

So long as everyone understands that this is a mechanic and not a cinematic barometer that needs to be measured, there should be no problem with EMS as a feature. That is simply number crunching on the outside. 

I see two problems with this.

First, the ME3 EMS application meant that most of us never saw the mechanics have any effect. Without skipping content you automatically get to a high-EMS state (Except possibly in the case of a really bad ME2 import or no import in a no-DLC game). It's difficult to avoid this without making sidequests and exploration irrelevant for EMS.

Second, there's a weird psychological effect we see with some ME3 gameplay elements, and I believe with some DA2 elements as well. If an item suggests that more content could have been there than actually , then some players feel that more content should have been there, and Bio must have cut something or gotten lazy. For instance, the one-liner squadmate remarks on the Normandy fool some players into thinking that the squadmates have less dialogue than they did in ME2, even though the opposite is true; the single line feels like a cut rather than an addition. A lot of EMS items work like this, I think.

I'm not susceptible to this thinking myself, and I suspect you aren't either. But I've seen too many aggrieved posts to deny that the effect is real.

I don't know what this means for DAI. Maybe they should go back to the DAO system and have the Inquisitor always get to the endgame with more-or-less the same assets?

To the first point, the mechanical aspect to this was implemented in a way where 90% of the people on here, the diehard fans, could not fail it. In terms of showing the effects, a lot of people see that as more important than the actual effects, what it meant in terms of the hard numbers, but they were numbers that weren't arbitraily placed, they had a purpose and served it if we were that inclined to go for a high score.

Since this is a discussion about results being seen, here is a more important question. Other than the scripted events in Dragon Age or Dragon Age 2, were there any moments where you actually leveled up and were able to kill enemies quicker? Or did your increasing DPS and crowd-controlling get matched as you grinded to level 20?  That whole stat grinding for a higher DPS is often a bane in RPGs, tabletop and otherwise, because it makes the mathematics for the game wholly arbitrary. No matter how badass you become you will always do only 30% of damage in one hit on a regular enemy. The number is just increased from 20 to 200.

Can we say that the EMS system was arbitrary in that way, where it was irrelevent to the outcome? I would argue that no, it wasn't, although most of us were completely skewed because we went through three games worth of stuff to compile. If there way any flaw to it, it was how the implementation was for determining the EMS, not the effects via a cutscene or scripted dialogue. 

For the second point, I am not susceptible to thinking that, no. I understand why people assume that though. 

[Ninja Stan]

Let's keep this discussion on-topic and DAI related, please.