337 réponses à ce sujet

[o Ventus]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

To be fair, Kasumi, Liara, Wrex, and Legion haven't killed anybody for personal gain (as far as we know).

David is still wrong, by all means, but that counter list is half wrong.

Euhm Wrex was a mercenary, that's the VERY DEFINITION of killing people for personal gain (in the Mass Effect universe that is).

Can't recall Kasumi or Liara or Legion killing "innocent" folks (nobody is truly innocent) for their personal gain.

It's Wrex's job to kill people. It isn't like he kills people, then ransacks their corpses and looted their houses, or because he personally enjoys it.

Modifié par o Ventus, 12 août 2013 - 12:21 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

o Ventus wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

To be fair, Kasumi, Liara, Wrex, and Legion haven't killed anybody for personal gain (as far as we know).

David is still wrong, by all means, but that counter list is half wrong.

Euhm Wrex was a mercenary, that's the VERY DEFINITION of killing people for personal gain (in the Mass Effect universe that is).

Can't recall Kasumi or Liara or Legion killing "innocent" folks (nobody is truly innocent) for their personal gain.

It's Wrex's job to kill people. It isn't like he kills people, then ransacks their corpses and looted their houses, or because he personally enjoys it.

He does personally enjoy it. He states it rather often.

[The Heretic of Time]

David7204 wrote...

I forgot about Morinth. Although she hardly counts since the overwhelming majority of players kill her and she pretty much zero affection from the fanbase.

Argumentum ad populum. In other words, a fallacious argument, something you're quite good at Davey.

There's no indication Wrex ever killed innocent people who didn't deserve it.

He was a merc. He killed for money. If you seriously think everyone he killed to gain his credits was a badguy you're seriously incredibly naive.

Zaeed tries to, but you can stop him and he ultimately listens.

Irrelevant. You can also NOT stop him and then he DOES kill innocent people, so your argument is invalid.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 12 août 2013 - 12:23 .

[o Ventus]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

He does personally enjoy it. He states it rather often.

I know he does. He's a krogan. But that has nothing to do with "personal gain".

[The Heretic of Time]

o Ventus wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

He does personally enjoy it. He states it rather often.

I know he does. He's a krogan. But that has nothing to do with "personal gain".

Again, he's a merc, that's the very definition of personal gain.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

I forgot about Morinth. Although she hardly counts since the overwhelming majority of players kill her and she pretty much zero affection from the fanbase.

Lack of popularity =/= whether or not she counts.

She counts.

There's no indication Wrex ever killed innocent people who didn't deserve it, nor Samara. Zaeed tries to, but you can stop him and he ultimately listens and relents. In any case, that wasn't his intent.

The fact is that Zaeed can do it, and that you (the heroic hero) can let him do it. It doesn't matter what his intent is. He doesn't give a damn.

Wrex is more than willing to start violence with C-Sec officers in ME1 for the sake of violence. Aren't they innocent?

Samara is willing to kill innocents if they come between her and her objective. Remember the village that Morinth enthralled? As I recall, Morinth brainwashed them. They were still technically innocent. And Samara slaughtered them.

[David7204]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Irrelevant. You can also NOT stop him and then he DOES kill innocent people, so your argument is invalid.

Not irrelevant in the slightest. Every person in existence probably could have grown up to be a murderer or deluded or something in the wrong enough circumstances. People aren't guilty of what they could have done.

Modifié par David7204, 12 août 2013 - 12:29 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

o Ventus wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

He does personally enjoy it. He states it rather often.

I know he does. He's a krogan. But that has nothing to do with "personal gain".

Enjoying it would be personal gain. He gets a kick out of violence so it's a personal gain for him.

And as a mercenary, he's going to be gaining monetary benefits. That is also personal gain.

[Steelcan]

David, how have you not been permabanned?

[o Ventus]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Enjoying it would be personal gain. He gets a kick out of violence so it's a personal gain for him.

And as a mercenary, he's going to be gaining monetary benefits. That is also personal gain.

Touche to the first, but no to the second. It's literally his job to kill people. That's how he makes (made) a living. Judging by his actions in 2 and 3, I don't think he would be a bounty hunter if he didn't need to. It isn't like he takes the money from his bounties and spends it on lavish clothes and harems, or some other hedonistic properties. I would make the same argument for somebody like Thane.

[The Heretic of Time]

David7204 wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Irrelevant. You can also NOT stop him and then he DOES kill innocent people, so your argument is invalid.

Not irrelevant in the slightest. Every person in existence probably could have grown up to be a murderer or deluded or something in the wrong enough circumstances. People aren't guilty of what they could have done.

But people are guilty of the things they do. In my playthrough, Zaeed killed innocent people for personal gain.

So yes, in my game, Zaeed is very much guilty of killing innocents for personal gain. So your argument is irrelevant.

[The Heretic of Time]

o Ventus wrote...

It's literally his [Wrex's] job to kill people. That's how he [Wrex] makes (made) a living.

So? That's completely irrelevant. Getting money so you can make a living is still a personal gain.

Also, Wrex CHOSE his job. It's not like anyone or anything forced him to ebcome a merc. He CHOSE to kill (innocent) people for money (e.g. personal gain).

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 12 août 2013 - 12:41 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

o Ventus wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

And as a mercenary, he's going to be gaining monetary benefits. That is also personal gain.

Touche to the first, but no to the second. It's literally his job to kill people. That's how he makes (made) a living.

That's a personal gain. A personal benefit. Payment is a benefit. It matters not what he spends his money on, be it lavish expenses or a new shotgun. He needs the money for transport, food, some kind of shelter, basic living expenses. 

The payment he receives is a personal gain because it allows him to take care of his needs.

[billy the squid]

David7204 wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Irrelevant. You can also NOT stop him and then he DOES kill innocent people, so your argument is invalid.

Not irrelevant in the slightest. Every person in existence probably could have grown up to be a murderer or deluded or something in the wrong enough circumstances. People aren't guilty of what they could have done.

So essentially everyone is heroic because they didn't have to, even though they did. "David brand heroism" at it's finest, Saturday cartoon heroism again. Everyone is a hero, you just have to believe!

I'm so inspired I'm going to put my underwear over my trousers.

[David7204]

Actually that's pretty basic legal and ethical principles that are accepted basically everywhere.

[shingara]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

And as a mercenary, he's going to be gaining monetary benefits. That is also personal gain.

Touche to the first, but no to the second. It's literally his job to kill people. That's how he makes (made) a living.

That's a personal gain. A personal benefit. Payment is a benefit. It matters not what he spends his money on, be it lavish expenses or a new shotgun. He needs the money for transport, food, some kind of shelter, basic living expenses. 

The payment he receives is a personal gain because it allows him to take care of his needs.

 Does that mean anyone who takes up arms for money is doing it for personal gain ?

[o Ventus]

I'll leave it at "you and I have different definitions of 'personal benefit'."

[MassivelyEffective0730]

o Ventus wrote...

I'll leave it at "you and I have different definitions of 'personal benefit'."

What do you define as personal benefit? 

Why does payment to cover living expenses not count as a personal benefit?

[MassivelyEffective0730]

shingara wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

And as a mercenary, he's going to be gaining monetary benefits. That is also personal gain.

Touche to the first, but no to the second. It's literally his job to kill people. That's how he makes (made) a living.

That's a personal gain. A personal benefit. Payment is a benefit. It matters not what he spends his money on, be it lavish expenses or a new shotgun. He needs the money for transport, food, some kind of shelter, basic living expenses. 

The payment he receives is a personal gain because it allows him to take care of his needs.

 Does that mean anyone who takes up arms for money is doing it for personal gain ?

Payment is a personal gain, yes.

[billy the squid]

David7204 wrote...

Actually that's pretty basic legal and ethical principles that are accepted basically everywhere.

Have you ever worked in or studied the legal sector? Because I have and its bloody well not. 

Its " inoccent until proven guilty", not "they didn't have to do it, so innocent"

You've already said he didn't have to, therefore he didn't do it. We'll just ignore the gaping logical chasm in that reasoning, considering he did do it. 

Edit:

Modifié par billy the squid, 12 août 2013 - 12:53 .

[David7204]

If any character pulled out a gun and shot dead a clearly innocent person for no reason or for a really stupid reason, I can assure you they would quickly move to the bottom of the popularity list. Or at he very least would be considered a very, very serious scar on an otherwise well-written character. We'd of course have a few people giggling over it in gleeful approval and some pseudo-arguments trying to justify such a thing, but that happens regardless, and thus doesn't really count for anything. 

Modifié par David7204, 12 août 2013 - 12:46 .

[shingara]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Payment is a personal gain, yes.

 So what is the characteristic to make one personal gain better or worse then another ?

[The Heretic of Time]

o Ventus wrote...

I'll leave it at "you and I have different definitions of 'personal benefit'."

And your definition is wrong.

Personal: 
of, pertaining to, or coming as from a particular person; individual; private.

Benefit:
a payment or gift, something that is advantageous or good.


So yes, killing people to get paid = killing for personal benefit.

[o Ventus]

"Something that is advantageous or good".

That's it. It's not strictly advantageous (nor strictly good, but thats more pedantic than anything), it's his weekly paycheck.

Modifié par o Ventus, 12 août 2013 - 12:50 .

[billy the squid]

shingara wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Payment is a personal gain, yes.

 So what is the characteristic to make one personal gain better or worse then another ?

What action did you perform to secure the personal gain.