263 réponses à ce sujet

[LinksOcarina]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Man, the RPG world is poorly constructed then.

Do you mean the RPG genre? Because there is no RPG "world."

If you meant the genre, I wouldn't expect it to be - it was created by hundreds of thousands of writers over time. Meanwhile, the DA universe was constructed by a dozen. Those dozen writers should all be operating under the same over-arching framework of narrative consistency.

There is no such thing as narrative consistency. thats my point.

The "world of RPG's" is the culture surrounding it. The writers, developers, players, the clannish good old boys club that permeates all of this design.  Its literally constructed to be banal by the writers and designers because of popularity and idealism. None of the writers give a damn about lore; they made the world so they can change it as they wish, and they have a right to because they want to make something look cool or use it as a hook for something later. 

Doesn't matter what I am talking about either. DnD, Pathfinder, Dragon Age, The Witcher, all of them are susceptible to this.

I don't know, its easy to be cynical about this, my point I guess is that lore and consistancy mean squat to anyone but the nerds following it. 

[LinksOcarina]

legbamel wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...
Honestly what you are debating is pointless. The tolkein standard is a mish-mash of cultural sources and mythology he cobbled together because he could. It doesn't matter if its different or unique based on that standard, its still not original  because people adopted it as a standard, when it shouldn't have to be one.

Simply put, Dragon Age didn't need elves to be a fantasy game, which made Dragon Age just another derivative of the fantasy tropes. Since they are there our best judge is their lore, which does make them more unique but even as someone else pointed out, is still not unique enough.

So you want someone to invent a game where all of the races have new names and new appearances, no dwarves, orcs, goblins, elves, or humans?  Because if there's a more tired trope in fantasy than having humans in it, I don't know what it could be.

Not really. I just want you to reconize how pointless this debate is. IF you want to invent that world, go for it. Don't do the  Final Fantasy route and give them different names but similar apperances. 

Hell, at least Final Fantasy invented stuff like the Viera. 

Modifié par LinksOcarina, 10 août 2013 - 03:01 .

[LinksOcarina]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I don't know about that. The ears are pronounced still and the facial features are still very symetrical and "pointy" for the lack of a better word.

I think they are just gonna finish the job and not keep it merely adequate in terms of looks.

If you look at highly polished DA2 elves like Fenris, Merrill and Maeretheri, the. Yes, I could see how you could think this.

If you look at how the vast majority of non-feature Elven NPCs looked, then you might think like me and say the design in DA2 was a vast departure and that the new alpha models looks much more like DA:O (with a slight change to facial form to look a little more distinctive).

You see DA2 elves as a lack of polish. I see DA:O elves as a lack of technical ability to create the slight differences they were going for.

Either way, I don't think the DA:I design will upset either of us. But if the OP is really asking for alien, bestial elves, I think THEY will be let down.

It is both. Nothing wrong with that.

But thats a mechanical issue that is completely different from story and things like that. Kind of like how they had no female turians until Nyreen because of tehnical limitatons in Mass Effect and Mass Effect 2. 

[Am1vf]

LinksOcarina wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Man, the RPG world is poorly constructed then.

Do you mean the RPG genre? Because there is no RPG "world."

If you meant the genre, I wouldn't expect it to be - it was created by hundreds of thousands of writers over time. Meanwhile, the DA universe was constructed by a dozen. Those dozen writers should all be operating under the same over-arching framework of narrative consistency.

There is no such thing as narrative consistency. thats my point.

The "world of RPG's" is the culture surrounding it. The writers, developers, players, the clannish good old boys club that permeates all of this design.  Its literally constructed to be banal by the writers and designers because of popularity and idealism. None of the writers give a damn about lore; they made the world so they can change it as they wish, and they have a right to because they want to make something look cool or use it as a hook for something later. 

Doesn't matter what I am talking about either. DnD, Pathfinder, Dragon Age, The Witcher, all of them are susceptible to this.

I don't know, its easy to be cynical about this, my point I guess is that lore and consistancy mean squat to anyone but the nerds following it. 

Then I suppose I must be a nerd, I have been called that before, because I prefer a fictitional world to retain a cetain degree of consistency. Although I understand the need for ocasional redesigns.

Should Bioware forget about those picky nerds and care only for the those who don't care if the world is consistent because they just discovered the world?

[Olmerto]

Am1_vf wrote...

I don't care for originality.Something I do hate however is seing perfectly valid desing choices move backwards because of a lacking execution and apealing to reactionary complaints.

How about remaining faithful to the original design vision as set forth in DAO, then? And can you say "Flemeth"?

[Ophir147]

RedArmyShogun wrote...

Hey, hey, hey. Screw you OP? How do you know the humans arn't the weird ones?

You wanna go? You wanna go.

Cause we'll go. GOD I go to church every goddamn Sunday! You gonna bring the demons outta me!

[andar91]

I appreciated that DA2's elves stood apart from humans, but I thought they were too weird looking. I think there are better ways. Pronounced ears are one way, and I also notice that most elves have more slender, shorter builds than humans. They seem to have slightly more pointed features.

So I guess I like elves that look distinctive, but not necessarily in DA2's style.

[LinksOcarina]

Am1_vf wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Man, the RPG world is poorly constructed then.

Do you mean the RPG genre? Because there is no RPG "world."

If you meant the genre, I wouldn't expect it to be - it was created by hundreds of thousands of writers over time. Meanwhile, the DA universe was constructed by a dozen. Those dozen writers should all be operating under the same over-arching framework of narrative consistency.

There is no such thing as narrative consistency. thats my point.

The "world of RPG's" is the culture surrounding it. The writers, developers, players, the clannish good old boys club that permeates all of this design.  Its literally constructed to be banal by the writers and designers because of popularity and idealism. None of the writers give a damn about lore; they made the world so they can change it as they wish, and they have a right to because they want to make something look cool or use it as a hook for something later. 

Doesn't matter what I am talking about either. DnD, Pathfinder, Dragon Age, The Witcher, all of them are susceptible to this.

I don't know, its easy to be cynical about this, my point I guess is that lore and consistancy mean squat to anyone but the nerds following it. 

Then I suppose I must be a nerd, I have been called that before, because I prefer a fictitional world to retain a cetain degree of consistency. Although I understand the need for ocasional redesigns.

Should Bioware forget about those picky nerds and care only for the those who don't care if the world is consistent because they just discovered the world?

Even better question, is this consistancy necessary for enjoyment of the world?

That depends on what you are looking for though. The problem is were in the minority in terms of that, at least from a story perspective. 

[Am1vf]

Olmert wrote...

Am1_vf wrote...

I don't care for originality.Something I do hate however is seing perfectly valid desing choices move backwards because of a lacking execution and apealing to reactionary complaints.

How about remaining faithful to the original design vision as set forth in DAO, then? And can you say "Flemeth"?

I don't think there was much of a "design vision" in DAO elves, DA][ elves were actually a attempt to have some sort of design. How about keeping the direction of the design development consistent?

And Flemeth is a shapeshifter, although I think they took it too far, there is a reason excuse for her changing her looks so much. I don't think it's reasonable to ask for more in a fantasy setting.

Modifié par Am1_vf, 10 août 2013 - 03:11 .

[Am1vf]

LinksOcarina wrote...

Am1_vf wrote...

(...)

Should Bioware forget about those picky nerds and care only for the those who don't care if the world is consistent because they just discovered the world?

Even better question, is this consistancy necessary for enjoyment of the world?

That depends on what you are looking for though. The problem is were in the minority in terms of that, at least from a story perspective. 

For some people consistency  it is essential, I have no staistics to know how many.

[LinksOcarina]

Am1_vf wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

Am1_vf wrote...

(...)

Should Bioware forget about those picky nerds and care only for the those who don't care if the world is consistent because they just discovered the world?

Even better question, is this consistancy necessary for enjoyment of the world?

That depends on what you are looking for though. The problem is were in the minority in terms of that, at least from a story perspective. 

For some people consistency  it is essential, I have no staistics to know how many.

I agree. In terms of statistics I can't give a number.

I can say for sure though, most people I play with are more concerned about mechanics and killing power vs lore and story. I would guarentee the majority playing something like World of Warcraft can care less about the storyline of World of Warcraft. With 7 million people playing, id wager only 1 million tops cares for the lore.

but that is all part of the bartle test anyway...which really can apply to any sort of RPG experience. 

[cjones91]

Am1_vf wrote...

Olmert wrote...

Am1_vf wrote...

I don't care for originality.Something I do hate however is seing perfectly valid desing choices move backwards because of a lacking execution and apealing to reactionary complaints.

How about remaining faithful to the original design vision as set forth in DAO, then? And can you say "Flemeth"?

I don't think there was much of a "design vision" in DAO elves, DA][ elves were actually a attempt to have some sort of design. How about keeping the direction of the design development consistent?

And Flemeth is a shapeshifter, although I think they took it too far, there is a reason excuse for her changing her looks so much. I don't think it's reasonable to ask for more in a fantasy setting.

Well as much as some people refuse to admit most elves have human features and the only thing separating them from humans are their lanky figures and pointy ears.So the DAO elves are pretty much the design while DA2 elves look like someone decided to give them all weird faces in order to look 'different'.

[legbamel]

LinksOcarina wrote...

legbamel wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...
Honestly what you are debating is pointless. The tolkein standard is a mish-mash of cultural sources and mythology he cobbled together because he could. It doesn't matter if its different or unique based on that standard, its still not original  because people adopted it as a standard, when it shouldn't have to be one.

Simply put, Dragon Age didn't need elves to be a fantasy game, which made Dragon Age just another derivative of the fantasy tropes. Since they are there our best judge is their lore, which does make them more unique but even as someone else pointed out, is still not unique enough.

So you want someone to invent a game where all of the races have new names and new appearances, no dwarves, orcs, goblins, elves, or humans?  Because if there's a more tired trope in fantasy than having humans in it, I don't know what it could be.

Not really. I just want you to reconize how pointless this debate is. IF you want to invent that world, go for it. Don't do the  Final Fantasy route and give them different names but similar apperances. 

Hell, at least Final Fantasy invented stuff like the Viera.

But the debate is about what they look like, not whether their inclusion in-world is original.  I'm not sure what you're trying to get at, here.  Are you saying that we should base our idea of what an elf should look like on someone else's arbitrary standard or that we should look to existing DA lore for guidance as to what they should look like?  Or are you simply saying it doesn't make any difference what changes the designers decide to implement?

[LinksOcarina]

legbamel wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

legbamel wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...
Honestly what you are debating is pointless. The tolkein standard is a mish-mash of cultural sources and mythology he cobbled together because he could. It doesn't matter if its different or unique based on that standard, its still not original  because people adopted it as a standard, when it shouldn't have to be one.

Simply put, Dragon Age didn't need elves to be a fantasy game, which made Dragon Age just another derivative of the fantasy tropes. Since they are there our best judge is their lore, which does make them more unique but even as someone else pointed out, is still not unique enough.

So you want someone to invent a game where all of the races have new names and new appearances, no dwarves, orcs, goblins, elves, or humans?  Because if there's a more tired trope in fantasy than having humans in it, I don't know what it could be.

Not really. I just want you to reconize how pointless this debate is. IF you want to invent that world, go for it. Don't do the  Final Fantasy route and give them different names but similar apperances. 

Hell, at least Final Fantasy invented stuff like the Viera.

But the debate is about what they look like, not whether their inclusion in-world is original.  I'm not sure what you're trying to get at, here.  Are you saying that we should base our idea of what an elf should look like on someone else's arbitrary standard or that we should look to existing DA lore for guidance as to what they should look like?  Or are you simply saying it doesn't make any difference what changes the designers decide to implement?

It doesn't make a difference at all basically. 

[Am1vf]

LinksOcarina wrote...

Am1_vf wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

Am1_vf wrote...

(...)

Should Bioware forget about those picky nerds and care only for the those who don't care if the world is consistent because they just discovered the world?

Even better question, is this consistancy necessary for enjoyment of the world?

That depends on what you are looking for though. The problem is were in the minority in terms of that, at least from a story perspective. 

For some people consistency  it is essential, I have no staistics to know how many.

I agree. In terms of statistics I can't give a number.

I can say for sure though, most people I play with are more concerned about mechanics and killing power vs lore and story. I would guarentee the majority playing something like World of Warcraft can care less about the storyline of World of Warcraft. With 7 million people playing, id wager only 1 million tops cares for the lore.

but that is all part of the bartle test anyway...which really can apply to any sort of RPG experience. 

That is one of the reasons I never cared much for WoW. And the people I talk to seem to care for the lore more, to the point of liking a game with broken gamplay because of it's lore.

The question for BioWare is, I suppose, which crowd do they care for. Or might as well try to do both things right... can't be easy, I pitty their situation a bit.

[Sjpelke]

Faerunner wrote...

Please don't. =(

Elves are established fantasy races with roughly established appearances. I don't understand people's OBSESSION with making them OMG LOOK COMPLETELY UNLIKE ANY ELF BEFORE! for every single fantasy story. Especially when those same people don't mind dwarves always looking like short, stout, often bearded humans. Especially when those same people don't mind dragons looking like giant, horned, winged lizards. Especially when those same people don't mind gryphons looking like giant eagles with the lower bodies of lions.

Elves look like slim humans with pointed ears? Yes, that's how they've roughly been established as a fantasy race within our collective consciousness. Quit calling to reinvent the wheel and get over it already!

Agreed.

Elves appearance are roughly defined from Tolkien's concept which has been applied mostly in games.

Although there have been concepts that turned towards other looks which suited their purpose that turned out really well.



Regarding the elves in DA and their 'function' and design; am hoping that how they look will be different in body build as they looked in DA2 but simply because did not like their appearance. Am sure that they will look different in DAI as the concept art already showed.

[LinksOcarina]

Am1_vf wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

Am1_vf wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

Am1_vf wrote...

(...)

Should Bioware forget about those picky nerds and care only for the those who don't care if the world is consistent because they just discovered the world?

Even better question, is this consistancy necessary for enjoyment of the world?

That depends on what you are looking for though. The problem is were in the minority in terms of that, at least from a story perspective. 

For some people consistency  it is essential, I have no staistics to know how many.

I agree. In terms of statistics I can't give a number.

I can say for sure though, most people I play with are more concerned about mechanics and killing power vs lore and story. I would guarentee the majority playing something like World of Warcraft can care less about the storyline of World of Warcraft. With 7 million people playing, id wager only 1 million tops cares for the lore.

but that is all part of the bartle test anyway...which really can apply to any sort of RPG experience. 

That is one of the reasons I never cared much for WoW. And the people I talk to seem to care for the lore more, to the point of liking a game with broken gamplay because of it's lore.

The question for BioWare is, I suppose, which crowd do they care for. Or might as well try to do both things right... can't be easy, I pitty their situation a bit.

That answer is easy, its the one that makes them the most money.

Of course striving to do things right is usually more important than dumping it. Blizzard changes things all the time because they think it is cool or makes them money, its very mercenary of them. 

If BioWare makes an attempt at trying to please everything, I will respect that a lot more when it fails. 

[Olmerto]

Am1_vf wrote...

Olmert wrote...

Am1_vf wrote...

I don't care for originality.Something I do hate however is seing perfectly valid desing choices move backwards because of a lacking execution and apealing to reactionary complaints.

How about remaining faithful to the original design vision as set forth in DAO, then? And can you say "Flemeth"?

I don't think there was much of a "design vision" in DAO elves, DA][ elves were actually a attempt to have some sort of design. How about keeping the direction of the design development consistent?

And Flemeth is a shapeshifter, although I think they took it too far, there is a reason excuse for her changing her looks so much. I don't think it's reasonable to ask for more in a fantasy setting.

What you're saying, essentially, is that you demand consistency when it suits your own taste, but screw consistency if it doesn't. Making excuses for the abandonment of an established design doesn't bolster your new-found love of consistency in DA2.

[Am1vf]

Olmert wrote...

Am1_vf wrote...

Olmert wrote...

Am1_vf wrote...

I don't care for originality.Something I do hate however is seing perfectly valid desing choices move backwards because of a lacking execution and apealing to reactionary complaints.

How about remaining faithful to the original design vision as set forth in DAO, then? And can you say "Flemeth"?

I don't think there was much of a "design vision" in DAO elves, DA][ elves were actually a attempt to have some sort of design. How about keeping the direction of the design development consistent?

And Flemeth is a shapeshifter, although I think they took it too far, there is a reason excuse for her changing her looks so much. I don't think it's reasonable to ask for more in a fantasy setting.

What you're saying, essentially, is that you demand consistency when it suits your own taste, but screw consistency if it doesn't. Making excuses for the abandonment of an established design doesn't bolster your new-found love of consistency in DA2.

I don't intend to defend so much one or the other, I would like them to decide for damn once and stop changing it with every single game. When the showed DA][ elves I was like "so elves look like this now, it'll take some getting used to", now that I'm used to it they change it again. It's like they make games only for people with short memory span.

edit: oh, and if it was my own taste, personally I would get rid of the elves. Sorry elves' fans, just a taste thing.

edit2: and I just said I don't like the Flemeths new look but I accept it because it is consistent with her being a shapeshifter (meaning she can shape-shift), did you even read my post?

Modifié par Am1_vf, 10 août 2013 - 03:45 .

[cjones91]

discosuperfly wrote...

How DAaaaRE the Dragon Age 2 art team try to reinvent the elf! Shaaaame on you, Bioware.../drama

(People are so weird about elves.)

It's not reiventing the elf when you give them huge eyes that make them look like they are on drugs.And why elves need to be reivented anyway?

[Foxhound2121]

Making elves look different doesn't mean they have to be ugly. In dragon age, ugly was an elven race characteristic, and I don't see why it needs to be.

Modifié par Foxhound2121, 10 août 2013 - 03:34 .

[fchopin]

Please stop posting the ugly elfs from DA2.

[BouncyFrag]

I'm hoping they can craft some elven characters that I can actually tolerate, or dare I say it, like, and not have bad things happen to them.