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[AlanC9]

Necanor wrote...

And then they went full-retard mode and killed every organic, they could get their robotic hands on. Tali says in ME1, that the Geth butchered 99% of the Quarian population, regardless of which side they were on, what age, gender or creed they belonged to. It's briefly mentioned in ME2, how they didn't just target Quarians, but literally any organic being(the Asari, who still grieves about her bondmate, who was killed by the Geth). They did at least spare the few lucky survivors(maybe 1% of the Quarian population) of this madness. Are they not merciful?

Well, they were just following the quarians' example. Except for letting a few quarians escape, of course.

Modifié par AlanC9, 11 août 2013 - 06:25 .

[wolfhowwl]

They gave the Quarians just as much mercy as they would have got in return.

[Sir DeLoria]

KaiserShep wrote...

Necanor wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

Legion was a sympathetic character since ME2.

He openly lies to you on multiple occasions. There are few individuals in the series, that I trust less than Legion, he's the epitome of shady.

Refresh my memory, what is this list of lies? Did he lie in ME2 as well? If so, what about? 

1. He doesn't tell you about any of the upgrades until it's too late
2. He completely ignores the attrocities committed by the Geth and subjectively shows the Geth as victims.

[KaiserShep]

shingara wrote...

Am i right in thinking there are no geth ships in the flottila heading to earth either ?

You're correct. If you make peace, the geth presence is relegated to just Joker saying "geth fleet reporting" and that's pretty much it. Another race that gets the short end of the stick are the Batarians. It would've been awesome to see your old nemesis Balak reporting in for the Batarians.

Necanor wrote...
1. He doesn't tell you about any of the upgrades until it's too late
2. He completely ignores the attrocities committed by the Geth and subjectively shows the Geth as victims.

1. In its defense, Legion does explain why it withheld this information for so long, but in the end, it lets you know about the upgrades anyway, so this isn't really a lie. It didn't have to tell Shepard about this at all. If Legion said "We can break any geth security", we'd just assume that being a more sophisticated geth platform lends him this ability without question.

2. Firstly, we're already made fully aware of the aftermath of the Morning War since ME1, and the memory archives in the geth consensus do not contradict this. The Quarians did have outliers that opposed destroying the geth, and the Quarians did detain or kill these people as a result, ultimately removing them from the equation altogether. So where is the lie? Bottom line, the Quarians are the aggressors that started the war, aiming to preemptively address a potential geth uprising. There's no way around this fact.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 11 août 2013 - 06:41 .

[Sir DeLoria]

AlanC9 wrote...

Necanor wrote...

And then they went full-retard mode and killed every organic, they could get their robotic hands on. Tali says in ME1, that the Geth butchered 99% of the Quarian population, regardless of which side they were on, what age, gender or creed they belonged to. It's briefly mentioned in ME2, how they didn't just target Quarians, but literally any organic being(the Asari, who still grieves about her bondmate, who was killed by the Geth). They did at least spare the few lucky survivors(maybe 1% of the Quarian population) of this madness. Are they not merciful?

Well, they were just following the quarians' example. Except for letting a few quarians escape, of course.

That justifies exactly nothing. The Geth said themselves "this unit has not taken part in the hostilities, why is it punished?". Yeah, tell that to the millions of children, elderly and other civilians you slaughtered.

[Sir DeLoria]

wolfhowwl wrote...

They gave the Quarians just as much mercy as they would have got in return.

The Asari, Turians and Salarians would(and did) exactly the same to AIs. Do they deserve to be whiped out as well?

Heck, let's just kill all organics in the name of justice! Collective punishment ftw!

[AlanC9]

Necanor wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Well, they were just following the quarians' example. Except for letting a few quarians escape, of course.

That justifies exactly nothing. The Geth said themselves "this unit has not taken part in the hostilities, why is it punished?". Yeah, tell that to the millions of children, elderly and other civilians you slaughtered.

Do they need justfication? If it's OK for organics to exterminate synthetics, why isn't it OK for synthetics to exterminate organics?

[KaiserShep]

The irony is that if the situation was reversed, the Quarians would probably have pursued the fleeing geth and simply finished them off once and for all, because it's really just a matter of a species chasing down rogue equipment. Their sentience is more or less considered an industrial accident to be corrected.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 11 août 2013 - 06:47 .

[shingara]

I dont think ive actualy seen a batarian ship so wouldnt have a clue if they were in the flotilla.

[KaiserShep]

They don't really need to show the Batarian ship. Just showing the Batarians on the bridge of a ship would suffice.

[shingara]

ye true, just think its a bit of an anomoly to never have seen one, espec with arrival on ME2. Mind i suppose the same goes for arias fleet.

Modifié par shingara, 11 août 2013 - 06:51 .

[Alien Number Six]

I have many Shepards. To be honest if I can't choose peace I choose who makes it out of the Collector Base alive. If neither make it out alive I choose the Quarians.

[Kataphrut94]

The placing of geth as Paragon and quarian as Renegade does make a certain kind of sense if you consider their respective positions in this war. You have the geth, who have just been freed from Reaper control and are once again vulnerable to the quarians attacks. The quarians are openly taking advantage of this in order to finish them off. In this scenario, who is more likely to help the helpless? That's almost the definition of the Paragon playthrough. Not to mention that Paragon Shepard has already been established as believing synthetic life to be of equal value to organic life.

Mind you, it is funny how many people there are who mindlessly pick the Paragon option, then have a waah when Tali goes over the cliff. No one to blame but yourself there, sooky. If you're going to go full Paragon, you have to do it right!

[Fixers0]

Meh, the Geth still needed to geth some repay for the MSV broken arrow.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

The Catalyst is right. The Cycle is the correct solution to the problem. It is obvious that refusal is the only correct solution. Organics need to be harvested every 50,000 years to restore order to the chaos. It is the only solution. Organics are a blight on the galaxy. Synthetics are perfect because they are created by organics, and if organics do not intend for their appliances to become sentient and somehow they do and organics try to shut them down, organics deserve to be exterminated. This is quite obvious. So the only solution is the Cycle.

Shepard is a war criminal. The Reapers are the good guys.

[His Name was HYR!!]

 Am I the only one wondering how the OP is at all related to the title??

[Display Name Owner]

Not sure how this is really a Paragon/Renegade thread, but anyway...

I see nothing wrong with Legion attacking you as such. If it weren't a game and Shep was a real person with no limitations on what he can do and say, reasoning with Legion against using the code would have been my choice. Although having said that, the code was apparently needed to preserve the Geth against the Quarian onslaught, so the Geth felt they had no choice but to use it. Anyway, I still hate the idea of uploading the code, so I choose Quarians. Can't blame Legion for attempting to stop that. Important as Shepard apparently is (and tbh I think his importance is overblown from the moment the Beacon's info stops being relevant), anyone who just accepts that his life outweighs that of their entire species is a damn fool.

I wouldn't blame Tali for attacking Shep either, but presumably she's too paralysed by shock and grief that someone she looks up to would do something like that to her and her people.

[Sir DeLoria]

AlanC9 wrote...

Necanor wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
Well, they were just following the quarians' example. Except for letting a few quarians escape, of course.

That justifies exactly nothing. The Geth said themselves "this unit has not taken part in the hostilities, why is it punished?". Yeah, tell that to the millions of children, elderly and other civilians you slaughtered.

Do they need justfication? If it's OK for organics to exterminate synthetics, why isn't it OK for synthetics to exterminate organics?

Normally I'd write about how synthetics aren't living beings, but that gets us nowhere. Perhaps because their earlier statement about collective guilt makes them the most utter hypocrites? Even if some Quarians tried to destroy the Geth, there was no reason, to kill nearly all Quarians.

[Sir DeLoria]

Kataphrut94 wrote...
The placing of geth as Paragon and quarian as Renegade does make a certain kind of sense if you consider their respective positions in this war. You have the geth, who have just been freed from Reaper control and are once again vulnerable to the quarians attacks. The quarians are openly taking advantage of this in order to finish them off. In this scenario, who is more likely to help the helpless? That's almost the definition of the Paragon playthrough. Not to mention that Paragon Shepard has already been established as believing synthetic life to be of equal value to organic life.

Mind you, it is funny how many people there are who mindlessly pick the Paragon option, then have a waah when Tali goes over the cliff. No one to blame but yourself there, sooky. If you're going to go full Paragon, you have to do it right!

However, not only do the Quarians have millions of civilians on board, but the entire decision of attack was carried out by just one Admiral. Uploading the code will kill 17 million civilians. Not just that, but Shep is betraying people who trusted him, Tali and the Flotilla trusted Shep with their lives and he decides to stab them in the back and nearly exterminate their race. He is also completely ignoring Hackett's orders to secure the Flotilla. Also, the desire of some Quarians for revenge is completely understandable, they were nearly exterminated by the Geth, they lost their homeworld, their culture and were forced to a terrible life in exile for 300 years. It's like choosing between humanity and skynet. If anything, both options should have been considered renegade.

[Br3admax]

"I'm sorry, Legion. I can't let the quarians die." is not a Renegade response. So what I'm saying is: the placement on the wheel isn't always whether it is Renegade or Paragon, unless you believe telling one squadmate instead of another is a Morality decision. Sometimes, choices are just choices.Take the decision you have to make when you find the Rachni Queen/Breeder. No matter what you do there, you'll still gain Renegade points. For me it was that way, anyway.

[DeinonSlayer]

On Menae, there's a wheel where you choose to send Liara or Vega to repair the tower. Both options are on the bottom of the wheel. Given that this is one of the biggest decisions in the trilogy, and no morality points are actually rewarded for choosing one side or the other, I'd say it would have been appropriate to arrange the wheel as shown below, and not to mince words over exactly what the action (upload, stop the upload) entailed.

[Warn the fleet]   [Rally the fleet]
                       \\   /
                        O
                       /   \\
  [Kill the Geth]    [Kill the Quarians]

Really I'd have preferred peace without Reaper code, but this would have been the least they could do.

[hpjay]

Necanor wrote...
Normally I'd write about how synthetics aren't living beings, but that gets us nowhere. Perhaps because their earlier statement about collective guilt makes them the most utter hypocrites? Even if some Quarians tried to destroy the Geth, there was no reason, to kill nearly all Quarians.

Curious.  In one instance you deny the Geth status as living beings, then in the next breath castigate them by applying a morality that can only be held by living, sentient, sapient being.

[DeinonSlayer]

Then again, that would further condition people to pick whatever was at the top of the wheel...

Paragon and renegade need to go.

[Sir DeLoria]

hpjay wrote...

Necanor wrote...
Normally I'd write about how synthetics aren't living beings, but that gets us nowhere. Perhaps because their earlier statement about collective guilt makes them the most utter hypocrites? Even if some Quarians tried to destroy the Geth, there was no reason, to kill nearly all Quarians.

Curious.  In one instance you deny the Geth status as living beings, then in the next breath castigate them by applying a morality that can only be held by living, sentient, sapient being.

Alright, what do you prefer? Shall I treat the Geth as living beings, that are absolutely evil and must pay for their crimes? Or shall I treat them as dangerous rogue computers , that must be disassembled?