240 réponses à ce sujet

[KaiserShep]

If the geth were absolutely evil, they would simply have followed the Quarians' example to the letter and wiped them all out as they tried to escape.

I think the Paragon/Renegade system can work if it's simply better written, and their arrangement on the dialogue wheel is not so fixed. Players who mindlessly pick the top options immediately might accidentally pick a "renegade" choice, and it would promote them to actually think about what they want the protagonist to do, rather than assuming the binary morality of the game. Having more true, third "neutral" options would be nice too.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 11 août 2013 - 03:46 .

[Sir DeLoria]

KaiserShep wrote...

If the geth were absolutely evil, they would simply have followed the Quarians' example to the letter and wiped them all out as they tried to escape.

So a mass murderer who kills 99 people and lets one run for his life is not evil? 

[hpjay]

Necanor wrote...

hpjay wrote...

Necanor wrote...
Normally I'd write about how synthetics aren't living beings, but that gets us nowhere. Perhaps because their earlier statement about collective guilt makes them the most utter hypocrites? Even if some Quarians tried to destroy the Geth, there was no reason, to kill nearly all Quarians.

Curious.  In one instance you deny the Geth status as living beings, then in the next breath castigate them by applying a morality that can only be held by living, sentient, sapient being.

Alright, what do you prefer? Shall I treat the Geth as living beings, that are absolutely evil and must pay for their crimes? Or shall I treat them as dangerous rogue computers , that must be disassembled?

 See, you're doing it again.  You want them NOT to be living beings and you want them to be EVIL.  You can't seem to make up your mind.  Very curious indeed.

Of course, the Geth are no more or less evil than the Quarians who wanted to enslave them and/or murder them.  But, whereas the Quarians probably would have pursued the Geth to extinction, the Geth had the decency to stop short in their defensive war against the Quarians.   Also, we've seen in ME3 that the Quarians homicial tendancies towards the Geth are so strong that they think little of putting their own civilians in harms way when battleing the Geth.

[KaiserShep]

I guess this is another geth vs. Quarian debate. The story itself makes it clear that the Morning War is entirely the Quarians' fault, yet somehow they get a pass.

[DeinonSlayer]

What the Geth did was akin to pouring petrol into an ant's nest and setting it on fire, then not bothering to squish a pair of fleeing worker ants. Even the Geth don't call it "mercy." That's players projecting what they want their motives to have been onto them.

- Geth are living beings (when enough are together to achieve sapience at least) with (initially) limited understanding of morality.
- Quarians were (and are) divided over the Geth issue. They are not a monoculture.
- One side attempted genocide, and is several generations removed from the original instigators
- The other side committed genocide in response, and, being immortal, is still the same entity now it was then
- Both sides share responsibility, both sides have lessons they need to learn
- Peace is the ideal outcome (as much as I dislike its implementation)

Not sure what's so hard to understand.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 11 août 2013 - 04:00 .

[DirtyPhoenix]

KaiserShep wrote...

I rather like that he turns aggressive if you try to stop him. It'd be pretty boring and senseless if he simply accepted his fate. In its place, I'd go monkey sh** too.

This. Oh noes he betrays Shepurd! Shepard was going to kill off his entire race. Any sensible person would do the exact same, friend or not.

[hpjay]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

What the Geth did was akin to pouring petrol into an ant's nest and setting it on fire, then not bothering to squish a pair of fleeing worker ants. Even the Geth don't call it "mercy." That's players projecting what they want their motives to have been onto them.

- Geth are living beings (when enough are together to achieve sapience at least) with (initially) limited understanding of morality.
- Quarians were (and are) divided over the Geth issue. They are not a monoculture.
- One side attempted genocide, and is several generations removed from the original instigators
- The other side committed genocide in response, and, being immortal, is still the same entity now it was then
- Both sides share responsibility, both sides have lessons they need to learn
- Peace is the ideal outcome (as much as I dislike its implementation)

Not sure what's so hard to understand.

 

From the wiki...

"It is also implied by Legion that the geth feel a sort of remorse for killing so many quarians and display this by looking after the quarians' buildings, as though it were a cemetery. At the same time, the sacrifice of those quarians who had opposed martial law and the termination order were archived and honored by the geth, even if the quarians themselves had largely forgotten about them."

[DeinonSlayer]

None of which contradicts what I said. It wasn't mercy at the time, however their views might have changed (or not) in the following centuries.

Do a Geth VI playthrough sometime. That's the mentality which guided them at the time of the Morning War. It doesn't give a damn about them.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 11 août 2013 - 04:29 .

[Soldier096]

hpjay wrote...

The Geth had the decency to stop short in their defensive war against the Quarians.  

No they didn't. The Geth didn't let the Quarians go out of mercy. Accroding to Legion they let the Quarians go due to insufficient data. They could not forsee the consequences of destroying an entire race. The Geth did not let the Quarians go out of kindness or mercy. 

[KaiserShep]

You know, the Quarians didn't exactly create the best environment for things such as morality and kindness to spontaneously manifest themselves in a newly sentient being. All things considered, they're lucky that the geth even considered the uncertainty of their demise at all. They could have just as well decided that the only way to ensure their survival is to render their creators extinct and be done with it.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 11 août 2013 - 05:07 .

[Soldier096]

Irrelevant to what I said. I'm arguing the praise the geth receive for letting an extremely small percentage of Quarians live. They say that it was out of mercy when it wasn't. The Geth could not make a consensus due to a lack of data nothing more. Mercy and kindness are organic reactions which is something that the Geth do not possess. They base everything they do off of data. Why should the Geth be praised for being unable to decide to kill the Quarians or let them go?

Modifié par Soldier096, 11 août 2013 - 05:33 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

The funny thing is that all those Geth sympathizers. You know the ones that didn't get rounded up by their government? Yeah, there were those, too. Governments aren't that efficient. Those who didn't escape with the flotilla got killed by the Geth anyway. But they were remembered for their actions of sympathizing with the Geth, so I guess that makes it all good.

"We regret that we must now terminate you."

[Lhawke]

Whatever happened in the past was irrelevant to me. The Geth wanted peace the Quarians did not. I sided with the current non aggressors.
Legion stood up to shepard in my anti-synthetic playthrough and I didn't blame him one bit for getting aggressive. I certainly didn't like that playthrough very much.
I will admit he had his own agenda which he kept to himself but I didn't mind that at all. I don't like mindless followers.

[Oni Changas]

You should still be able to have a good/evil stance, but I quite like the Reputation system ME3 introduced. Persuade/Intimidate decisions should be unlocked by taking action and completing quests and missions.

[sr2josh]

Shepard and the organic races are actually fighting heretic Geth during the first two games and not "true" Geth according to Legion.

On my first playthrough I ended up choosing to upload the Reaper code and thus killing off the Quarians.  I wanted to achieve peace but the first time i got to that point the "peace process" was a little confusing.

The issue of the code and Legion's flip-flopping on using Reaper technology to progress the evolution of one's race is a difficult one to decide on.  Keep in mind, if Legion had agreed to not upload the code and the Quarians decided to cease hostilities with Shepard's insistence, the Geth would have survived the Destroy option(the Crucible targeted Reaper technology). 

[Kataphrut94]

Necanor wrote...

Kataphrut94 wrote...
The placing of geth as Paragon and quarian as Renegade does make a certain kind of sense if you consider their respective positions in this war. You have the geth, who have just been freed from Reaper control and are once again vulnerable to the quarians attacks. The quarians are openly taking advantage of this in order to finish them off. In this scenario, who is more likely to help the helpless? That's almost the definition of the Paragon playthrough. Not to mention that Paragon Shepard has already been established as believing synthetic life to be of equal value to organic life.

Mind you, it is funny how many people there are who mindlessly pick the Paragon option, then have a waah when Tali goes over the cliff. No one to blame but yourself there, sooky. If you're going to go full Paragon, you have to do it right!

However, not only do the Quarians have millions of civilians on board, but the entire decision of attack was carried out by just one Admiral. Uploading the code will kill 17 million civilians. Not just that, but Shep is betraying people who trusted him, Tali and the Flotilla trusted Shep with their lives and he decides to stab them in the back and nearly exterminate their race. He is also completely ignoring Hackett's orders to secure the Flotilla. Also, the desire of some Quarians for revenge is completely understandable, they were nearly exterminated by the Geth, they lost their homeworld, their culture and were forced to a terrible life in exile for 300 years. It's like choosing between humanity and skynet. If anything, both options should have been considered renegade.

The thing is, uploading the code isn't consciously killing the quarians. I know that's what happens, but the geth have made it very clear they only intend to harm the quarians if it's in self defence. The Reaper code gives them the ability to defend themselves; once they have them, the ball is in the quarians court. And remember that the geth trusted Shepard as well, and there are a lot more than 17 million of them.

Either way, what happens if you can't secure peace is a tragedy. Shepard is betraying one side to save another, and millions of people will die so that millions will live. I'm not saying it's ideal, but if you had to label one side 'Paragon' and one side 'Renegade', geth for Paragon and quarian for Renegade makes the most sense for me. It's certainly the way the dialogue tree had been leaning for the rest of that arc.

[o Ventus]

1. What does this have to do with paragon or renegade?

2. Legion attacks you if you decide to destroy his entire species? It's almost as if he DOESN'T want his people to go extinct.

[Hazegurl]

shingara wrote...

How many let the rachni queen go there 1st time through ?

I did. I didn't care about anyone on Noveria

[o Ventus]

Hazegurl wrote...

I did. 

As did I.

[AresKeith]

shingara wrote...

How many let the rachni queen go there 1st time through ?

I did, then killed her on the second, freed her on the third and forth, and killed her again on the fifth 

[Sir DeLoria]

Kataphrut94 wrote...
The thing is, uploading the code isn't consciously killing the quarians. I know that's what happens, but the geth have made it very clear they only intend to harm the quarians if it's in self defence. The Reaper code gives them the ability to defend themselves; once they have them, the ball is in the quarians court. And remember that the geth trusted Shepard as well, and there are a lot more than 17 million of them.

Either way, what happens if you can't secure peace is a tragedy. Shepard is betraying one side to save another, and millions of people will die so that millions will live. I'm not saying it's ideal, but if you had to label one side 'Paragon' and one side 'Renegade', geth for Paragon and quarian for Renegade makes the most sense for me. It's certainly the way the dialogue tree had been leaning for the rest of that arc.

Which was a real problem. The entire Rannoch Arc had significant plot holes and was extremely biased for the Geth.
Also, who do you trust? Tali, who consistently fought by your side through all 3 games, adores you and would give her life for you, or the shady robot, who consistently deceives you and his bunch of evil robots, who butchered billions and tried to kill you through all 3 games?
Tali specifically says "uploading the code will destroy us! Please Shepard, you can't choose the Geth over my people!", so Shep is consciously allowing his allies, the Quarian race to be nearly exterminated. Who but a Renegade would do any of this?

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Of course the Rannoch arc was biased to the Geth. They wanted you to pick the Geth so that you would have feels in the end and choose their bestest ending. Synthesis. You must save those poor innocent reapers, and the poor innocent geth, and add circuitry to everyone.

[Sir DeLoria]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Of course the Rannoch arc was biased to the Geth. They wanted you to pick the Geth so that you would have feels in the end and choose their bestest ending. Synthesis. You must save those poor innocent reapers, and the poor innocent geth, and add circuitry to everyone.

Ikr, who cares about the Quarians or all those hundreds of species the poor Reapers exterminated? Best part: we don't even mention the hundreds of millions of Quarians and other organics, that were butchered:lol:

Oh and save sexbot:O

[hexediter]

What you are ignoring is that the Geth stopped killing Quarians in every scenario in which the quarians stopped fighting them outside of heretics. The Quarians on the other hand started the war, and will end it if you do not intervene. Those millions or how ever many Quarians who died in the mourning war died because they were continuing conflict. As soon as they chose to flee (it seems safe to assume peace was never something they perused) they were allowed to do so.

[Sir DeLoria]

hexediter wrote...

What you are ignoring is that the Geth stopped killing Quarians in every scenario in which the quarians stopped fighting them outside of heretics. The Quarians on the other hand started the war, and will end it if you do not intervene. Those millions or how ever many Quarians who died in the mourning war died because they were continuing conflict. As soon as they chose to flee (it seems safe to assume peace was never something they perused) they were allowed to do so.

Lolno. Infants, children, elderly and civilians can't continue conlict. The Geth just went full-retard mode, killed 99% of the Quarians and let a few lucky survivors flee. Are they not merciful?