398 réponses à ce sujet

[dreamgazer]

David7204 wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Like the geth as in networked intelligences?

As in kills millions of people while claiming to be non-hostile and can't stay anything even remotely close to consistent.

I see.

And EDI?

Do we know about what happened at Luna in this fictional reality?

[Jorji Costava]

@Necanor:

I hope you're ready for a textwall: Focusing just on Tali's loyalty mission, My hangup is that it has one and only one goal: To engender feelings of sympathy and protectiveness in the player towards Tali. Because it relentlessly pursues this end, it makes the least interesting choices it can make at every turn.

To begin with, Tali is charged with treason for ... bringing active Geth parts to the flotilla. That's about the most boring treasonous offence ever. It sounds more like handling dangerous materials than treason. It's also something Shepard himself (or herself) can do with no consequences whatsoever. Why is Tali being charged with treason for doing something that seems like no big deal? Basically, the writers are contriving to have Tali be threatened with exile but in such a way as to not actually cast any aspersions at Tali from the player. If it turned out that Tali really was guilty of bringing active Geth parts to the flotilla, would that make most players hate her? Probably not, and that's what I don't like about it. In other words, the game wants you to feel bad for her, and that's it.

Charging a beloved (although not by me) character with treason is something that should be mined for all sorts of meanings; I think the way they should have done it is to have Tali be charged with treason for something that actually seems bad (to the player), and to raise the possibility in the player's mind that she might actually be guilty of this horrible thing. That way, the mission can be a real test of Shepard's loyalty to Tali. Or if you don't want to cast any aspersions in Tali's direction, have her father be charged with treason. Tali is brought in as a character witness, and she now has a choice to make between family loyalty and conscience. The way the game actually goes just seems like Lazarus to me, using death and/or treason purely as plot devices rather than mining them for anything further.

The same could be said about other aspects of this mission. Why are Quarian juridical procedures so sketchy? Tali's practically convicted before she even has a chance to know what the charges are (hard to believe that's how the case of an admiral's daughter would be handled). Again, it's set up to make you feel bad for Tali. There's more to say (i.e. about the death of Tali's father, etc.), but I'm just going to leave it at that. Suffice it to say that I think this mission is every bit as manipulative as the Geth consensus mission; it just lasts a lot longer.

I don't hate Tali in some personal way; I mostly skip her conversations, speed through her loyalty mission, make peace on Rannoch, and that's it. The thing to do with people you don't like that much is ignore them, not contrive to have them killed in battle or some such. That's just not how I RP. If you like her, great, and I mean that. Maybe you're just a better role-player than me. After all, we don't typically form friendships or romantic attachments on the basis of considerations like, "What are the thematic and/or socio-political implications of me associating with this person?" Still, I think we ought to take account of such things at some point in the equation, and when I do this, I find a lot of problems with much of the Quarian material.

EDIT: Fixed grammar and punctuation.

Modifié par osbornep, 12 août 2013 - 04:34 .

[wolfhowwl]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Necanor wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

and is the only character, aside from Garrus to stay loyal.

And every other character who is loyal.

Because the time I spent gathering loyalty in ME2 meant nothing, I guess.

She is the only character except for Garrus, who fights by your side through all 3 games.

Funny thing was that I never wanted her there. The characters that mean something to me are in ME2. 

I like that despite Miranda's plot armor in the suicide mission and Cerberus being like half of ME3 all Bioware could think to do with her was rehash her loyalty mission.

[David7204]

dreamgazer wrote...

Do we know about what happened at Luna in this fictional reality?

As much as we know what happened in this one.

[David7204]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Is an overdone "Pinocchio" character.

Is this going anywhere?

I'm sorry you feel that way. Would that justify killing her to you?

[Dunmer of Redoran]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

DaftArbiter wrote...

Quick, someone make a Mass Effect dating sim.

It will cause much negativity in character discussions to dissipate inexplicably.

For over a thousand troll generations the fans fought small scale wars... before the dark times. Before the new waifu wars...

People will be too busy taking their waifus to post-Reaper art museums to argue about things.


I say try it, and if it fails, it just gives us new and creative routes for which people can leverage their complaints.



Q: "Miranda wouldn't let you get to second base without impressing her first!"
A: "Yes she would."

"Halp I can't get Tali pragnint what do I doo?"

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

The Sims 3: The Mass Effect Dating Expansion Pack -- Now you can have Joker and EDI as room mates and listen to Joker crack a pelvis while making out.

[chemiclord]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

The Sims 3: The Mass Effect Dating Expansion Pack -- Now you can have Joker and EDI as room mates and listen to Joker crack a pelvis while making out.

True love is pain.

Or elbow deep.

I can't remember which.

Modifié par chemiclord, 12 août 2013 - 04:38 .

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

The Sims 3: The Mass Effect Dating Expansion Pack -- Now you can have Joker and EDI as room mates and listen to Joker crack a pelvis while making out.

https://encrypted-tb...GmobkNpKtzYRunH

[David7204]

Ah. And now we're getting to the real issue, aren't we? You don't consider her to be alive. And therefore you don't need any justification to destroy her.

Yes, there is a point to this. I saw this Liam Neeson movie one time where a guy said "Ask a lying man enough questions, and he will eventually change his story." I like that.

So, tell me, is it just EDI that you consider to not be alive, or would that apply to AIs in real life too?

[The Heretic of Time]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

I don't consider her to be alive, so there's no justification required.

To be honest I used to think like that, but watching a recent episode from Through The Wormhole (scientific documentary that explores the real-live possibilities of sci-fi concepts) about consiousness made me change my mind.

I'm not sure whether she is or isn't, but I think EDI could very well be alive.

[Sir DeLoria]

DaftArbiter wrote...


"Halp I can't get Tali pragnint what do I doo?"

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

Ah. And now we're getting to the real issue, aren't we? You don't consider her to be alive. And therefore you don't need any justification to destroy her.

Yes, there is a point to this. I saw this Liam Neeson movie one time where a guy said "Ask a lying man enough questions, and he will eventually change his story." I like that.

So, tell me, is it just EDI that you consider to not be alive, or would that apply to AIs in real life too?

You're using a movie with Liam Neeson to try and psychoanalyze somebody.

Do you feel powerful?

[Steelcan]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

I don't consider her to be alive, so there's no justification required.

To be honest I used to think like that, but watching a recent episode from Through The Wormhole (scientific documentary that explores the real-live possibilities of sci-fi concepts) about consiousness made me change my mind.

I'm not sure whether she is or isn't, but I think EDI could very well be alive.

.  I think she is alive, I just dont care.

[David7204]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

You're using a movie with Liam Neeson to try and psychoanalyze somebody.

Do you feel powerful?

Do you feel powerful irritating me with pointless drivel? I quoted a single line from a movie that applies to a concept I was discussing.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...




Do you feel powerful?

H-he's paid you a small fortune!

[David7204]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Ah. And now we're getting to the real issue, aren't we? You don't consider her to be alive. And therefore you don't need any justification to destroy her.

Yes, there is a point to this. I saw this Liam Neeson movie one time where a guy said "Ask a lying man enough questions, and he will eventually change his story." I like that.

So, tell me, is it just EDI that you consider to not be alive, or would that apply to AIs in real life too?

Generally, no, I don't think AI can truly be alive. I don't completely rule out the possibility of it happening some time in the future, but I think that generally any synthetic we create will simply feign consciousness rather than actually possess it (see Searle's "Chinese room" thought experiment).

Yes, I know about the Chinese Room.

So how would you handle EDI in ME 2 and ME 3 if you were Shepard?

[MassivelyEffective0730]

wolfhowwl wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Necanor wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

and is the only character, aside from Garrus to stay loyal.

And every other character who is loyal.

Because the time I spent gathering loyalty in ME2 meant nothing, I guess.

She is the only character except for Garrus, who fights by your side through all 3 games.

Funny thing was that I never wanted her there. The characters that mean something to me are in ME2. 

I like that despite Miranda's plot armor in the suicide mission and Cerberus being like half of ME3 all Bioware could think to do with her was rehash her loyalty mission.

Yep. Tali, Liara, Garrus, and EDI. They're not on my team because I want them there. I have others I'd rather have who I trust more, who I like more, and who I know would do a much better job. EDI is better as a disembodied blue avatar. Tali is a fine engineer. Otherwise, Garrus, even though he's a trusted subordinate, is rather redundant, and Liara has no purpose on my ship or even knowing my Shepard beyond writer protection.

I rather dislike a lot of things that are forced on me in ME3.

[The Heretic of Time]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Generally, no, I don't think AI can truly be alive.

And the documentary I previously mentioned shows that this is most likely false.

If you can simulate a brain with 1-on-1 accuracy, there would really not be a difference between that simulated brain and the real brain. Both brains would be equally concious, both brains would be equally self-aware. Doesn't that make both brains equally alive?

After all, like the virtual simulated brain, our real brains are nothing more than zero's and one's. A bunch of on-and-off switches that together form a self-aware consciousness that is you.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 12 août 2013 - 04:50 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

You're using a movie with Liam Neeson to try and psychoanalyze somebody.

Do you feel powerful?

Do you feel powerful irritating me with pointless drivel? I quoted a single line from a movie that applies to a concept I was discussing.

Do you feel powerful pretending to be Liam Neeson from a movie without actually giving real context to the quote?

What does this have to do with EDI?

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 12 août 2013 - 04:50 .