398 réponses à ce sujet

[dreamgazer]

Really, nobody in this thread should feel powerful.

Except me. I'm in tight with Grayskull.

Modifié par dreamgazer, 12 août 2013 - 08:55 .

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

David7204 wrote...


Yes, I know about the Chinese Room.

So how would you handle EDI in ME 2 and ME 3 if you were Shepard?

A long walk off a short cliff!

[David7204]

The context is self-evident.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

dreamgazer wrote...

Really, nobody in this thread should feel powerful.

Except me. I'm in tight with Grayskull.

I feel annoyed. And slightly cold. Fairly tired as well. It's 0100 here

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

dreamgazer wrote...

Really, nobody in this thread should feel powerful.

Except me. I'm in tight with Grayskull.

I used to feel powerful...

But they didn't even give me any lines! For the ****ing finale!

[Sir DeLoria]

@Osborn

I think you're misinterpreting quite a bit here:

1. It's true, BW somewhat tries to make her the loveable looser in ME2
2. When talking to the other Admirals, it becomes quite clear, that they don't give a damn about Tali(Xen even dislikes her), the entire trial is a faux for a political fight.

I think her loyalty mission was handled quite well(and most people seem to agree), if gives a more intricate look at Tali's family, it shows us a bit about the Quarian flotilla and introduces a whole variety of new and very important characters. I especially liked the 'rally the crowd' option at the end.

This is coming from a huge Tali&Quarian fan though, so to each his/her own.

[David7204]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Like I treat my computer or iPod. A useful tool, nothing more.

Everyone else on the ship treats her like a person. Liara, Tali, Traynor, Joker. How would 'your Shepard' respond to that?

[rekn2]

i dont like david but if you get my thread locked im reporting purgatory

[Ravensword]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

The Sims 3: The Mass Effect Dating Expansion Pack -- Now you can have Joker and EDI as room mates and listen to Joker crack a pelvis while making out.

This shows promise.

[Jorji Costava]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Ah. And now we're getting to the real issue, aren't we? You don't consider her to be alive. And therefore you don't need any justification to destroy her.

Yes, there is a point to this. I saw this Liam Neeson movie one time where a guy said "Ask a lying man enough questions, and he will eventually change his story." I like that.

So, tell me, is it just EDI that you consider to not be alive, or would that apply to AIs in real life too?

Generally, no, I don't think AI can truly be alive. I don't completely rule out the possibility of it happening some time in the future, but I think that generally any synthetic we create will simply feign consciousness rather than actually possess it (see Searle's "Chinese room" thought experiment).

Let's say I'm willing to grant that the Chinese room argument is sound. There's still the element of having a willingness to engage fiction on its own terms, in accordance with its own rules (even if those rules violate what we know of the physical universe). I doubt that ghosts are physically possible, but that doesn't mean we should treat ghost characters in fiction as lesser beings than their mortal peers. Time travel is arguably impossible, but that doesn't mean you should watch Terminator 2 and think that the entire thing must be taking place in Sarah Connor's head. In general, it's not always a good idea to import one's knowledge of the world into fictional works.

EDIT: Changed wording

Modifié par osbornep, 12 août 2013 - 05:02 .

[Dunmer of Redoran]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

The Sims 3: The Mass Effect Dating Expansion Pack -- Now you can have Joker and EDI as room mates and listen to Joker crack a pelvis while making out.

I hear EDI enjoys the sight of humans on their knees. Unfortunately for Joker, that means he won't be able to stand up for weeks.

Necanor wrote...

DaftArbiter wrote...


"Halp I can't get Tali pragnint what do I doo?"

You're laughing now but just you wait till you end up at an impasse in the fertility clinic.

IT COULD HAPPEN TO YOU

[Sir DeLoria]

DaftArbiter wrote...

Necanor wrote...

DaftArbiter wrote...


"Halp I can't get Tali pragnint what do I doo?"

You're laughing now but just you wait till you end up at an impasse in the fertility clinic.

IT COULD HAPPEN TO YOU

Eh, my Shep and Tali accepted a while ago, that they can't have kids naturally. Adoption's an option:D

[Dunmer of Redoran]

Necanor wrote...

DaftArbiter wrote...

Necanor wrote...

DaftArbiter wrote...


"Halp I can't get Tali pragnint what do I doo?"

You're laughing now but just you wait till you end up at an impasse in the fertility clinic.

IT COULD HAPPEN TO YOU

Eh, my Shep and Tali accepted a while ago, that they can't have kids naturally. Adoption's an option:D

Taking a page out of ME3 multiplayer, all "Key" relationship options can vary by the power of RNG, so that may not be the case.

First playthrough, Ashley might want a dog. Second playthrough, she might want a bird. Third playthrough, dogs may trigger a fatal allergy.

Whatever you wind up with, you can bet it'll lead to people moaning here about the lore.

[Jorji Costava]

@Cthulhu42:

That's a fair point. It's true that the game allows you to accept this view, but I doubt that Shepard's beliefs fix the metaphysics of the ME universe. Shepard has the opportunity to say and believe a lot of false things during the course of the game. For instance, you can believe that Shiala is too dangerous to let live in ME1, but we know from a meta-game point of view that that's just not the case. For better or worse, the AI issue may just be another instance of paragon bias.

AI's are self-aware (this is the basis of the distinction between AI's and VI's). They are intelligent, capable of making decisions, making plans for the future, engaging in creative endeavors, etc. You can argue that the Chinese room shows that no computer is capable of doing these things, but apparently the ME universe doesn't operate by these rules. What the argument doesn't show is that a being could be able to do these things and yet still have have any moral status. I don't know of any argument which could show that such a claim is true.

/night

EDIT: Fixed wording

EDIT #2: Fixed punctuation

Modifié par osbornep, 12 août 2013 - 05:17 .

[Sir DeLoria]

DaftArbiter wrote...

Necanor wrote...
Eh, my Shep and Tali accepted a while ago, that they can't have kids naturally. Adoption's an option:D

Taking a page out of ME3 multiplayer, all "Key" relationship options can vary by the power of RNG, so that may not be the case.

First playthrough, Ashley might want a dog. Second playthrough, she might want a bird. Third playthrough, dogs may trigger a fatal allergy.

Whatever you wind up with, you can bet it'll lead to people moaning here about the lore.

Yeah...Tali and Shep are from a different species, they can't eat the same food, I don't think even space-jesus Shep can get her pregnant. Who knows if he's still capable of reproduction after dying anyway...

[SlottsMachine]

David's new avatar is really throwing me off.

[David7204]

It's temporary. I uploaded the new picture but it isn't showing up in my profile for some reason. The damn thing worked fine 90 minutes ago. I even uploaded another generic face as a control, and that's not showing up either.

Modifié par David7204, 12 août 2013 - 05:26 .

[Clayless]

David7204 wrote...

It's temporary. I uploaded the new picture but it isn't showing up in my profile for some reason. The damn thing worked fine 90 minutes ago. I even uploaded another generic face as a control, and that's not showing up either.

I think I fixed that by uploading my old one again, and the new one randomly showed up.

Why? Beats me.

[Sir DeLoria]

David7204 wrote...

It's temporary. I uploaded the new picture but it isn't showing up in my profile for some reason. The damn thing worked fine 90 minutes ago. I even uploaded another generic face as a control, and that's not showing up either.

Yeah, that's the only reason I use one of the default masked Tali avis. I would have a nice avi by now, if only the system worked better...

[dreamgazer]

David7204 wrote...

It's temporary. I uploaded the new picture but it isn't showing up in my profile for some reason. The damn thing worked fine 90 minutes ago. I even uploaded another generic face as a control, and that's not showing up either.

Make sure you changed your photo's properties back to "read only" after you altered it.

[FlamingBoy]

I am sure there used to be a fan group ;P

[Clayless]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

There's no reason that characters in ME that claim AIs to be truly self-aware can't be mistaken, believing synthetics' feigned consciousness to be the real deal when it truly isn't (the I Can't Believe It's Not Butter of consciousness, if you will). The game itself is inconsistent in this regard anyway (for example, EDI claims to only feel alive towards the end of ME3, despite having been an AI since the beginning of ME2).

How do you tell what the "real deal" is?

Edit:

Also EDI claims to feel truly alive, referring to her experiences, understanding, and increased view.

Modifié par Robosexual, 12 août 2013 - 05:55 .

[The Heretic of Time]

Cthulhu42 wrote...
(see Searle's "Chinese room" thought experiment).

The Chinese room argument is flawed because it's based on a flawed understanding of intelligence.

A human brain is like a million "Chinese rooms" linked together, each neuron being a "Chinese room".

If we look at these neurons one by one, we see nothing that indicates any kind of intelligence. But linked together in a network, our neurons become a larger organism, the brain. And the brain contains us, the self.

So logically, if we could create a neural network similar to that of our brain in a computer (or by linking multiple computers together), we should be able to create a self-aware conscious entity that is similar to us. If we manage to do that, than there is no reason to believe that this virtual consciousness is not alive.