429 réponses à ce sujet

[Nerevar-as]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

On advantage of "they disappeared" is that it's open ended. If you'd prefer, I could suggest that we bring back the warden, and have the Warden become deranged with taint so that he/she actually ends up killing a small village and feasting on their bodies before being struck down by a bunch of dwarves.

Extreme example used to illustrate that if we have ultimate control of those characters (which we now do, given that both of those games are over), there WILL be outcomes that people won't like because in their minds "it's not what their warden will do."

My statement is more along the lines of expectation: it's a land mine to deal with in a lot of cases and if you go into DAI with some high expectations for what to see from Hawke and the Warden, there's a good chance you're setting yourself up for disappointment because DAI's focus will be on the Inquisitor's journey.


I can understand disappointment about Hawke's being rather abrupt and disappointing, and in retrospect we could've done something different as the plan had a larger expansion pack coming out, but reality nixed that. As such, Hawke has perhaps more loose ends and would probably have greater consideration for having his/her plot wrapped up on that fact. But at the same time the story is still about the Inquisitor and the events surrounding Inquisition.

While I get your point, I think this shows the weakness of having overarching plots with different main characters across games. The Warden could have been very involved with Morrigan, so if she and her plans (not to mention possible OGB) are big in another game, it´s natural to feel s/he´d get significantly involved, or at least be given one hell of an excuse not to. Hawke´s fans (guess they exist) have it worse, as that character didn´t fulfil even what was promised, and unlike Awakening, it looks DA2 expansion would have had a considerable impact on Hawke´s story. In a way it´s like having an overarching epic with different main characters but common plots and supporting cast. I doubt you (or anybody with the possible exception of Alan Moore) can make it work up to the same level as if the main character was the same in several games. ME had pulled it until the last 10 minutes, and where the writers didn´t cop out, such as the Genophage plot, the results were brilliant.

[What a Succulent Ass]

David Gaider wrote...

DesmondHume wrote...
Gaider, i want you to know that youre a pompous ass.

Since everything we do is so terrible, there's always an option: door's that way.

Here, let me help you.

Damn, son, I come into this thread and the first thing I see is sodium chloride all over the place and just any how.

[Taleroth]

TheBlackAdder13 wrote...

I actually would prefer this as it's a concrete resolution and it's actually pretty badass (but yes, I'm aware it would ****** off a large portion of the fan base).  

I get where you're coming from and I don't mind never seeing either character again, I just want some sort of closure as to what happened to them.

They finished their quests. That's closure. The idea that closure only happens when everyone's dead is ridiculous.

You don't need to know what Frodo is doing across the sea.

[Jerrybnsn]

Ozida wrote...

While I agree with Allan S. point, I still personally think that a soft, gentle mentioning of two past heroes would be welcomed. ..............Heck, even some note in Codex would do it for most of people, IMHO.

Dude, does the proverbial smack in the face mean anything to you?  That would be horrible to reduce a major (and one somewhat slightly more important than a random npc) hero to just a blurp.  

[Mykel54]

Personally i would prefer if all protagonists had their main story finished after the game, and in future games the old protagonists remained in the background, doing whatever they were last doing. For example the warden could simply keep battling darkspawn and eventually go to his calling, while hawke could be ruling kirkwall or helping free mages in the free marches, eventually a background event would happen ( in the codex, like a battle) where hawke dies.

I do not need old protagonists to keep doing heroic and mysterious stuff, i would rather see them doing the last thing they were doing, until eventually bioware decided to revisit the location, thus removing the old protagonist for a new npc. Example: Hawke remains as viscount until bioware decifes to revisit the political situation in kirkwall, and a npc would work better. The old pc is killed off and his story is over.

[TheBlackAdder13]

Taleroth wrote...

TheBlackAdder13 wrote...

I actually would prefer this as it's a concrete resolution and it's actually pretty badass (but yes, I'm aware it would ****** off a large portion of the fan base).  

I get where you're coming from and I don't mind never seeing either character again, I just want some sort of closure as to what happened to them.

They finished their quests. That's closure. The idea that closure only happens when everyone's dead is ridiculous.

You don't need to know what Frodo is doing across the sea.

They don't have to be dead, they just have to be not mysteriously disappeared. Allan gave an example wherein the warden died. I said I liked it because it provided closure. I didn't say what form that closure has to be, death is just one option. Retroactively saying that a previous protagonist mysteriously disappeared one game and then failing to address it is not closure as it implies a continuation to the character arc when there was no reason to bring it up unless they were going to address it.

You're right, you don't need to know what Frodo is doing across the sea. The important thing is that we know his story ended when he crossed the sea. This is closure. Mysteroiusly disappearing involves a plot or something happening behind the scenes -- why even mention it if you're not going to address it? Our warden had closure with his or her numerous endings until they said he disappeared in DA 2 without any reason or intimation as to why given. Hawke never had closure as he also disappeared. 

Modifié par TheBlackAdder13, 13 août 2013 - 11:46 .

[In Exile]

Nerevar-as wrote...
The Warden could have been very involved with Morrigan, so if she and her plans (not to mention possible OGB) are big in another game, it´s natural to feel s/he´d get significantly involved, or at least be given one hell of an excuse not to. 

And what if the Warden wants to have a change of heart and knife Morrigain once he learns what the plan is? Or what if the Warden wants to play daddy while Morrigan is off doing whatever? 

There's no way you're not robbing the player of choice and agency when you overtake their PC after a game. 

DA:A robbed all of us of agency when they forced us to lead the GW.

It's just that people only seem to complain about agency when they don't get the option they want. 

[In Exile]

Mykel54 wrote...

Personally i would prefer if all protagonists had their main story finished after the game, and in future games the old protagonists remained in the background, doing whatever they were last doing. For example the warden could simply keep battling darkspawn and eventually go to his calling, while hawke could be ruling kirkwall or helping free mages in the free marches, eventually a background event would happen ( in the codex, like a battle) where hawke dies.

The problem with that is that there is no reason to think or asume the Warden gives a flying fudge about darkspawn, beyond having been kidnapped by Duncan and stuck with a blight on his doorstep. Decorating your house with an archdemon skull doesn't mean you ever want to have anything to do with the GWs. And if they have a problem with it, well, you've killed enough humans/elves/dwarves to decorate all the pikes in Ferelden, so who cares what they have to say? 

[devSin]

Taleroth wrote...

You don't need to know what Frodo is doing across the sea.

But you do need to know that Frodo went across the sea with Bilbo and Gandalf and the elves. If we leave everyone there, then our story is concluded.

What we have here is the equivalent of Frodo and friends going across the sea, and then years later having Gandalf pop back up on the mainland to do some shopping.

The appropriate reaction is: what the hell? So what does that mean for Frodo if Gandalf is apparently running a shuttle service back and forth?

You at least have to say "but Frodo is never coming back".

[Sylvianus]

I really don't think it would be wise for Bioware to underestimate the importance of this topic that comes up fairly often..

The Warden, especially hawk if he was the Viscount of Kirkwall. Where are they, why they had to disappear ? Their current situation ? Why Cassandra was looking for them ? What did they do all this time ? etc etc etc. The " they disappeared " * poof it's magic * needs to be resolved, at least answered. We need some closure. And not with only two - three lines in the codex even if it is about the inquisitor's journey in DA:I.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 14 août 2013 - 12:04 .

[AndrahilAdrian]

The end of DA2 definitely gave the impression that the Warden and Hawke are still essential players in the story. After all, the Entire Game was built around Cassandra looking for Hawke in the future because "he's the only one who can stop the madness" of the mage-templar war (although the emergence of the inquisitor suggests she may be wrong). And Leliana said outright (in the game's final scene, no less) that the Warden and Hawke's mutual disappearance was "no coincidence". The last time we saw the Warden, in Witch Hunt, Morrigan was giving him a mysterious gift "of great value" and telling him that more chaos was yet to come. The fact is, these character's stories aren't "over". We still don't know what that gift was, or what Cassandra will do next to find Hawke (the framing story of DA2 basically ended on a cliffhanger) and, above all, we don't know why they disappeared, apart from that it "wasn't a coincidence". I'm not saying DA3 can't be about a new character, or even that the Warden and Hawke have to be major NPCs (I can see that that would be difficult to implement). But these questions need answering.

Modifié par AndrahilAdrian, 14 août 2013 - 12:22 .

[Iron Fist]

AndrahilAdrian wrote...

The end of DA2 definitely gave the impression that the Warden and Hawke are still essential players in the story. After all, the Entire Game was built around Cassandra looking for Hawke in the future because "he's the only one who can stop the madness" of the mage-templar war (although the emergence of the inquisitor suggests she may be wrong). And Leliana said outright (in the game's final scene, no less) that the Warden and Hawke's mutual disappearance was "no coincidence". The last time we saw the Warden, in Witch Hunt, Morrigan was giving him a mysterious gift "of great value" and telling him that more chaos was yet to come. The fact is, these character's stories aren't "over". We still don't know what that gift was, or what Cassandra will do next to find Hawke (the framing story of DA2 basically ended on a cliffhanger) and, above all, we don't know why they disappeared, apart from that it "wasn't a coincidence". I'm not saying DA3 can't be about a new character, or even that the Warden and Hawke have to be major NPCs (I can see that that would be difficult to implement). But these questions need answering.

Suppose Cassandra was wrong, perhaps she merely WISHED that Hawke could help. And now try to imagine the dozens of other Seekers investigating other potential heroes to aid in the conflict. Since the Seekers of Truth broke away from the Chantry, it's possible that they never found those heroes for the task.

Modifié par MevenSelas, 14 août 2013 - 12:26 .

[In Exile]

MevenSelas wrote...

Suppose Cassandra was wrong, perhaps she merely WISHED that Hawke could help. And now try to imagine the dozens of other Seekers investigating other potential heroes to aid in the conflict. Since the Seekers of Truth broke away from the Chantry, it's possible that they never found those heroes for the task.

Cassandra underestimate the strength of fan rage. The best laid plans ... 

[Iron Fist]

In Exile wrote...

MevenSelas wrote...

Suppose Cassandra was wrong, perhaps she merely WISHED that Hawke could help. And now try to imagine the dozens of other Seekers investigating other potential heroes to aid in the conflict. Since the Seekers of Truth broke away from the Chantry, it's possible that they never found those heroes for the task.

Cassandra underestimate the strength of fan rage. The best laid plans ... 

Hawke was one person from one city. There is an entire continent of people who might have the skills needed to fight in this conflict.

Modifié par MevenSelas, 14 août 2013 - 12:29 .

[AndrahilAdrian]

MevenSelas wrote...

AndrahilAdrian wrote...

The end of DA2 definitely gave the impression that the Warden and Hawke are still essential players in the story. After all, the Entire Game was built around Cassandra looking for Hawke in the future because "he's the only one who can stop the madness" of the mage-templar war (although the emergence of the inquisitor suggests she may be wrong). And Leliana said outright (in the game's final scene, no less) that the Warden and Hawke's mutual disappearance was "no coincidence". The last time we saw the Warden, in Witch Hunt, Morrigan was giving him a mysterious gift "of great value" and telling him that more chaos was yet to come. The fact is, these character's stories aren't "over". We still don't know what that gift was, or what Cassandra will do next to find Hawke (the framing story of DA2 basically ended on a cliffhanger) and, above all, we don't know why they disappeared, apart from that it "wasn't a coincidence". I'm not saying DA3 can't be about a new character, or even that the Warden and Hawke have to be major NPCs (I can see that that would be difficult to implement). But these questions need answering.

Suppose Cassandra was wrong, perhaps she merely WISHED that Hawke could help. And now try to imagine the dozens of other Seekers investigating other potential heroes to aid in the conflict. Since the Seekers of Truth broke away from the Chantry, it's possible that they never found those heroes for the task.

We can "suppose" and "imagine" whatever we want, but I think its a big enough deal (being the setup and ending for the whole of DA2 and all) that it should be addressed in game and given a proper resolution. The same goes for the Warden and the end of Witch Hunt, perticularly since the two are related (according to Leliana).

[Zerker]

Mr. Gaider, do not take the "head canon" thingy very serious. In my opinion, a good fantasy story with moments of awe, put together with nice enough combat are enough to make Dragon Age 3 a jewel of the genre.

Whatever you decide to add as a bonus, even stuff that can "break" the head canon, won't matter the least; if the story is successful overall. Just do what YOU want to do, it's your story after all. I'm very well aware that your team is more than capable to redeem the series after the disaster of Kirkwall.

Modifié par Maddok900, 14 août 2013 - 12:38 .

[In Exile]

MevenSelas wrote...

Hawke was one person from one city. There is an entire continent of people who might have the skills needed to fight in this conflict.

Putting aside my snark hat for the moment, you've missed an important part of DA2.

Cassandra thinks Hawke can stop everything because she thinks Hawke started everything as part of some unbelievable Xanathos Gambit for [?] purpose with a bunch of Ferelden's. 

In her mind, Hawke, Aveline, Anders, Merril... they all came from Ferelden toghether. She thought Hawke found the Red Lyrium and gave it to Meredith to drive her nuts, manipulated the Arishok into starting an attack on Kirkwall to become Viscount, and then nuked the Grand Cleric to start the slaughter in Kirkwall.

The point of her interaction with Varric is to get the real story - that Hawke didn't do anything of these things. 

Bioware just doesn't convey that well to the player. 

[Nerevar-as]

In Exile wrote...

Mykel54 wrote...

Personally i would prefer if all protagonists had their main story finished after the game, and in future games the old protagonists remained in the background, doing whatever they were last doing. For example the warden could simply keep battling darkspawn and eventually go to his calling, while hawke could be ruling kirkwall or helping free mages in the free marches, eventually a background event would happen ( in the codex, like a battle) where hawke dies.

The problem with that is that there is no reason to think or asume the Warden gives a flying fudge about darkspawn, beyond having been kidnapped by Duncan and stuck with a blight on his doorstep. Decorating your house with an archdemon skull doesn't mean you ever want to have anything to do with the GWs. And if they have a problem with it, well, you've killed enough humans/elves/dwarves to decorate all the pikes in Ferelden, so who cares what they have to say? 

This is not PnP, it´s a videogame, and as there´s no master who can allow for you wanting to ignore the main plot, or whether you want playing in a complete different way as you are supposed to (a very Knights of the Dinner Table attitude), it´s something you must accept.

As far as I´m concerned, I´d love to have all PCs in the main party at the end, like in those games you generated the whole group, and being able to choose how each of them would behave. The amount of writing juggling that would require however...

[Iron Fist]

In Exile wrote...

MevenSelas wrote...

Hawke was one person from one city. There is an entire continent of people who might have the skills needed to fight in this conflict.

Putting aside my snark hat for the moment, you've missed an important part of DA2.

Cassandra thinks Hawke can stop everything because she thinks Hawke started everything as part of some unbelievable Xanathos Gambit for [?] purpose with a bunch of Ferelden's. 

In her mind, Hawke, Aveline, Anders, Merril... they all came from Ferelden toghether. She thought Hawke found the Red Lyrium and gave it to Meredith to drive her nuts, manipulated the Arishok into starting an attack on Kirkwall to become Viscount, and then nuked the Grand Cleric to start the slaughter in Kirkwall.

The point of her interaction with Varric is to get the real story - that Hawke didn't do anything of these things. 

Bioware just doesn't convey that well to the player. 

I know.

I'm trying to make arguments against people who think he is important. He's just not, despite what the marketing department had them believe.

[In Exile]

Nerevar-as wrote...

This is not PnP, it´s a videogame, and as there´s no master who can allow for you wanting to ignore the main plot, or whether you want playing in a complete different way as you are supposed to (a very Knights of the Dinner Table attitude), it´s something you must accept.

I'm not complaining about it, I'm just saying that the only people that wouldn't be complaining are the ones that get the character behaviour they want.

As far as I´m concerned, I´d love to have all PCs in the main party at the end, like in those games you generated the whole group, and being able to choose how each of them would behave. The amount of writing juggling that would require however...

Not to mention it would require you creating a whole party, making it like IWD, which is something a lot of people don't want to play. Create-your-own party is a niche of a niche genre. 

[DarkKnightHolmes]

In Exile wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...
The Warden could have been very involved with Morrigan, so if she and her plans (not to mention possible OGB) are big in another game, it´s natural to feel s/he´d get significantly involved, or at least be given one hell of an excuse not to. 

And what if the Warden wants to have a change of heart and knife Morrigain once he learns what the plan is? Or what if the Warden wants to play daddy while Morrigan is off doing whatever? 

There's no way you're not robbing the player of choice and agency when you overtake their PC after a game. 

DA:A robbed all of us of agency when they forced us to lead the GW.

It's just that people only seem to complain about agency when they don't get the option they want. 

You can skip through awakening........

[Aolbain]

Eh, I'll just pretend my headcanon is true until they become relevant again. When they do I'll just adapt from that.

[Jerrybnsn]

MevenSelas wrote...

Hawke was one person from one city. There is an entire continent of people who might have the skills needed to fight in this conflict.

So much for the "hero's story".  Although I have to say, I think Cassandra found out that Hawke was just in the wrong place, at the wrong time.

[Heimdall]

In all honesty, I just want my Warden to stay vanished at this point. Let me imagine he's hooking up with Leliana when the Inquisitor's not looking. Anything is better than the horrendous mess that would result on these forums if the Warden's fate were decided and half the player base rose up to protest that their Warden would never do such a thing. Same goes for Hawke.

[Mike3207]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

But surely we'll get some sort of resolution to their character arcs even if they don't actually appear in game right? It would be incredibly disappointing to have a bunch of good endings for the warden (albeit an unsatisfying ending for a Hawke who sided with the mages) that get overwritten by a mysterious "they disappeared" with no actual explanation, only to never have it addressed again. Simply making the protagonist of the past two games disappear is an incredibly disappointing conclusion to their story arcs -- and yes, I think story arcs that players invest 40+ hours in should be reasonably well concluded.

On advantage of "they disappeared" is that it's open ended. If you'd prefer, I could suggest that we bring back the warden, and have the Warden become deranged with taint so that he/she actually ends up killing a small village and feasting on their bodies before being struck down by a bunch of dwarves.

Extreme example used to illustrate that if we have ultimate control of those characters (which we now do, given that both of those games are over), there WILL be outcomes that people won't like because in their minds "it's not what their warden will do."

My statement is more along the lines of expectation: it's a land mine to deal with in a lot of cases and if you go into DAI with some high expectations for what to see from Hawke and the Warden, there's a good chance you're setting yourself up for disappointment because DAI's focus will be on the Inquisitor's journey.


I can understand disappointment about Hawke's being rather abrupt and disappointing, and in retrospect we could've done something different as the plan had a larger expansion pack coming out, but reality nixed that. As such, Hawke has perhaps more loose ends and would probably have greater consideration for having his/her plot wrapped up on that fact. But at the same time the story is still about the Inquisitor and the events surrounding Inquisition.

One problem with that line of thinking is that a potential DAI customer should have no confidence that the Inquisitor won't disappear at the end of DAI-after all, you've done it with the two previous heroes. I'd rather rent it myself.I'm not even sure I'll have any interest in future DA games.

Modifié par Mike Smith, 14 août 2013 - 01:40 .