429 réponses à ce sujet

[Suledin]

Those two as companions? 



But it'd be nice to see them again. Small talk. That's all.

Modifié par PB93, 14 août 2013 - 03:40 .

[FKA_Servo]

I would settle for a little closure on Hawke. I can fill in the blanks with my wardens (it's easy with some of them - they're dead). Based on how great Legacy and MoTA are, I have to imagine the scrapped Exalted March would have had some fantastic stuff in it.

My pipe dream was actually a recruitable Hawke. The appearance and the dominant personality you used get picked up in your import, and the NPC will have one of three personalities in the game.

Things I'd like to happen that would never happen.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Realmzmaster wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

All of the party members should be PCs.

I think I would find this almost too complex, in a roleplaying sense.

And I personally am against it because I prefer Bioware created companions. I enjoy their writing.

Not really what StM is saying is that all PC should be created by the gamer. The gamer then controls all the PCs like in Icewind Dale, Might and Magic, Bard's Tale or Wizardry.

No, that's not what I'm saying.  I'm saying that, wherever the party members came from, the player should have control over them as long as they're in the party.

[NRieh]

. The gamer then controls all the PCs like in Icewind Dale, Might and Magic,

That's why I could never stop thinking of those as of 'RTS-TBS', not 'RPG'. RPing the whole fracking party?.. Meh. With all my respect for both IWD and M&Ms.

Even GM never roleplays the whole party, a character or two - may be, occasionally, if someone is affected by something or if GM has a personal character within the party.

[Realmzmaster]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

All of the party members should be PCs.

I think I would find this almost too complex, in a roleplaying sense.

And I personally am against it because I prefer Bioware created companions. I enjoy their writing.

Not really what StM is saying is that all PC should be created by the gamer. The gamer then controls all the PCs like in Icewind Dale, Might and Magic, Bard's Tale or Wizardry.

No, that's not what I'm saying.  I'm saying that, wherever the party members came from, the player should have control over them as long as they're in the party.

Let me see if I got what you are saying. For example I will use the scene with Jeven in DA2 where Hawke can give the response or Aveline gives the speech. If Aveline takes control of the scene you want to be able to control what Aveline says. Also you to be able to control them like in DAO or DA2 while in combat. You can take manual control or let the tactics run for the companions. Is this what you mean?

[wright1978]

I fully accept that my headcanon of what my version of Hawke & Isabela did after will not be covered. However the epilogue certainly hinted that Isabela was with Hawke right till the end. If in DAI she isn't and he is missing, then i'd expect her to be actively searching for him. Killing him off isn't something i'd approve of either as why bother to get invested in any future protaganist when you know they are likely to fall down an open manhole and break their neck five seconds after the credits roll.

[Sir George Parr]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

But surely we'll get some sort of resolution to their character arcs even if they don't actually appear in game right? It would be incredibly disappointing to have a bunch of good endings for the warden (albeit an unsatisfying ending for a Hawke who sided with the mages) that get overwritten by a mysterious "they disappeared" with no actual explanation, only to never have it addressed again. Simply making the protagonist of the past two games disappear is an incredibly disappointing conclusion to their story arcs -- and yes, I think story arcs that players invest 40+ hours in should be reasonably well concluded.

On advantage of "they disappeared" is that it's open ended. If you'd prefer, I could suggest that we bring back the warden, and have the Warden become deranged with taint so that he/she actually ends up killing a small village and feasting on their bodies before being struck down by a bunch of dwarves.

Extreme example used to illustrate that if we have ultimate control of those characters (which we now do, given that both of those games are over), there WILL be outcomes that people won't like because in their minds "it's not what their warden will do."

My statement is more along the lines of expectation: it's a land mine to deal with in a lot of cases and if you go into DAI with some high expectations for what to see from Hawke and the Warden, there's a good chance you're setting yourself up for disappointment because DAI's focus will be on the Inquisitor's journey.


I can understand disappointment about Hawke's being rather abrupt and disappointing, and in retrospect we could've done something different as the plan had a larger expansion pack coming out, but reality nixed that. As such, Hawke has perhaps more loose ends and would probably have greater consideration for having his/her plot wrapped up on that fact. But at the same time the story is still about the Inquisitor and the events surrounding Inquisition.

On the basis of this paragraph in the DA2 guide book epilogue. 

" Perhaps more intriguing, is there a reason why Hawke is now "gone like the warden", as revealed by Cassandra in the final scenes? Do the Champion and the Hero of ferelden have more in common than we know? And what do the mysterious Seekers of truth have to do with this? Will some Kind of inquisition be at the heart of the events of the next Dragon Age title?"

Now while the focus is on the journey of the new PC. That paragraph would suggest some explanation of the disappearance of two previous PCs would form part of that journey. On the basis of those lines i've not indulged in imagining what might have happened next for the previous PCs as it felt like it would be a pointless endeavour. As something else lay in store for those characters. 

Modifié par XM-417, 14 août 2013 - 07:09 .

[Teddie Sage]

I just want to know... Why is it "impossible" to make Hawke come back as the Inquisitor (optional origin)?
Is it because the writers had other plans for him/her and the Warden all along?
Or is it because the voice actors for Hawke aren't available anymore?

Modifié par Teddie Sage, 14 août 2013 - 08:10 .

[Allan Schumacher]

The advantage doesn't exist if you go on to further define parts of the story that would realistically involve the protagonist (such as lifting their romance partner from one game and having them strolling around creation in sequels and through other media).

It's suddenly a lot less "open-ended" (which I don't feel is even an accurate term for what you've done so far), since you now have to accommodate and justify all this further information.

Ehhhh, in many ways I frankly see this as an unreasonable expectation by many people.

That you ended up with Leliana in DAO doesn't mean she suddenly stops being her own character. Problems DO lie with "Warden has disappeared" since, as Maria says, it suddenly makes her think about it. But Leliana's presence? Mostly leaves me going "meh."


I disagree with the mandate that some have that because they liked the character in the first game, we should keep shoe horning extra stuff for the character (or even that the game *must* be about the first game's character). I actually *liked* that KOTOR 2 wasn't about the player controlling Revan. For each "the Warden would have been a perfect vehicle" type of comment, I can just as easily say "but he doesn't need to be. Thedas is a big place with lots of people and lots of stories" Never mind the continuity issues that arise unless we make every campaign become increasingly high level campaigns (I find it jarring to reset back to low levels from a narrative point of view, though as a game creator I'll always have a bias to easing players into the game, as well as maintaining entry points for new players).

It seems pretty clear, however, that we're looking on doing different stories for each of our games with a focus on a different character. As such, people would probably be better served placing their expectations for Warden/Hawke stuff as "Nice to haves" as opposed to "Must haves" simply for the purpose of mitigating your risk of disappointment.

One problem with that line of thinking is that a potential DAI customer
should have no confidence that the Inquisitor won't disappear at the end
of DAI-after all, you've done it with the two previous heroes. I'd
rather rent it myself.I'm not even sure I'll have any interest in future
DA games.

If you find this to be a signficant enough of an issue that you will abstain from purchasing the game when you otherwise would have, then that is your choice to make.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 14 août 2013 - 08:32 .

[Allan Schumacher]

Addendum to my above post: I understand that not everyone wants to know about the Warden and Hawke because they just want to know about them, but rather because of the ending of DA2.

I just want to know... Why is it "impossible" to make Hawke come back as the Inquisitor (optional origin)?

It's not impossible. Doing it to make sense, however, may mean that the narrative ideas we have in place would need to change, however.

Plus there's just the idea of "doing new stuff with new characters" which is where my bias lies.

[Abraham_uk]

Fan fiction.

If you want a story about Grey Warden Commander, Hawke and Inquisitor joining forces, write a fan fic.

Heck I'll even read your fan fiction. Fan fiction has produced some amazing stories in a variety of different franchises.

Show your fandom with stories. I'll read it! (As long as you private message me).

[Abraham_uk]

PB93 wrote...

Those two as companions? 



But it'd be nice to see them again. Small talk. That's all.

How about fan fiction.
That way, it doesn't spoil the canon for gamers.
At the same time it will satisify those who want Grey Warden Commander and Hawke in DA3.

Better still. Modding for the PC.
Will modding be possible on PS4 and XBox One?
(I'm refeering to the next XBox console, not the first XBox console. Yes, it really is going to be called XBox One).

[Taleroth]

Abraham_uk wrote...

Will modding be possible on PS4 and XBox One? 

No, and that is unlikely to ever change for consoles, as moddability is the result of PCs being the development platform. Consoles are, generally speaking, not their own development platforms.

Modifié par Taleroth, 14 août 2013 - 09:25 .

[Osena109]

Volourn wrote...

 This would be an awesome way to tie in the two previous games if we recruit our two previous PCs into our part 3 party. Imagine the stories and legends that can be made!

Am sorry my  gray warden dos not play  second fiddel hawke dos but not my warden

[Twisted Path]

One thing I don't get is why instead of *Mysteriously Disappearing!* the previous PCs can't quietly retire and then never be mentioned again. Or in the case of Origins; if the the PC became Warden Commander of Ferelden then "Doing Warden-Commander-of-Ferelden-Stuff for the rest of her life," seems like a reasonable fate for that PC and is something we never need to see onscreen again.

As for Dragon Age 2: for me "Hawke moved as far away from Kirkwall as possible because she was sick of that place and had no reason to stay," is a perfectly satisfying conclusion for me. If there had been a multiple choice ending to DA2 with that as one of the options I would have taken it.

Edit:

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Addendum to my above post: I
understand that not everyone wants to know about the Warden and Hawke
because they just want to know about them, but rather because of the
ending of DA2.

Yeah, I think this is definitly the case. If it weren't for the weird quasi-cliffhanger ending of DA2 I think there would be a lot less speculation about or desire to see the mysteriously disapeared protagonists.

Modifié par Twisted Path, 14 août 2013 - 10:05 .

[Sylvianus]

Twisted Path wrote...

One thing I don't get is why instead of *Mysteriously Disappearing!* the previous PCs can't quietly retire and then never be mentioned again. Or in the case of Origins; if the the PC became Warden Commander of Ferelden then "Doing Warden-Commander-of-Ferelden-Stuff for the rest of her life," seems like a reasonable fate for that PC and is something we never need to see onscreen again.

If their goal has always been to put aside their stories like it seems to be the case ( thedas is about a lot of stories, a lot of people ) , yeah don't know why the hell they didn't do that. It would have been easy to understand this fate and get over it. I always thought that Bioware was aware of what they were doing when they decided that both the warden and Hawk mysteriously disappeared with mysterious reasons, reasons linked to the plot at the end of DAII. But apparently nothing was planned. Now it is considered as " extra stuff " and almost appear as " a favor " which would be " offered to the players " lol. Is that supposed to be a joke ?

If each game is about a new hero, a new story, how about you end stories properly if you want to convince people with this format ? That seems to be a bit naive to think that people won't ask for answers or what is called extra stuff in the next games, ( even if there's a new hero ) if each time, there's something which prevents us to move on.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 14 août 2013 - 10:13 .

[devSin]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Ehhhh, in many ways I frankly see this as an unreasonable expectation by many people.

That you ended up with Leliana in DAO doesn't mean she suddenly stops being her own character. Problems DO lie with "Warden has disappeared" since, as Maria says, it suddenly makes her think about it. But Leliana's presence? Mostly leaves me going "meh."

How is it unreasonable to simply want a bit of guidance on how to resolve the two things?

Fenris says "I love you, Hawke." Varric says "Except for Fenris." David says "Fenris is mine, and I shall use him now in another game, and Hawke shall never be mentioned!"

How is it unreasonable to want you to come up with some way to address the disconnect between these two story points? Fenris can do what he wants (or rather, David can), but how can you say that there's no issue in updating the story of one without ever touching the other (does Fenris just go back? is Hawke dead? did they split up?).

I'm not one of those people who cares to ever see Hawke or the Warden again, but I recognize that you can't just say "open-ended" while continuing to define related parts of what was implied in your "open ending"—unless your position is that I should just imagine my way around any incongruity in how you present the characters that were involved in the player's story (that weren't actually controlled by the player) and how you claimed to end that story. If that's the case, then what's even the point of paying attention to the protagonist, since he's clearly the least relevant to the overarching story being told?

Modifié par devSin, 14 août 2013 - 10:36 .

[In Exile]

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...

You can skip through awakening........

Not if you want to import that Warden. DA:A is what the Warden does if the Warden is alive.

[Nerevar-as]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I disagree with the mandate that some have that because they liked the character in the first game, we should keep shoe horning extra stuff for the character (or even that the game *must* be about the first game's character). I actually *liked* that KOTOR 2 wasn't about the player controlling Revan. For each "the Warden would have been a perfect vehicle" type of comment, I can just as easily say "but he doesn't need to be. Thedas is a big place with lots of people and lots of stories" Never mind the continuity issues that arise unless we make every campaign become increasingly high level campaigns (I find it jarring to reset back to low levels from a narrative point of view, though as a game creator I'll always have a bias to easing players into the game, as well as maintaining entry points for new players).

My main Warden left with Morrigan, so I´d say he has some opinion of whatever she´s doing. Not to mention a child in common. That´s just too strong of a connection to handwave away. So for him, this is still part of his story, even if he has gone from main to supporting. There are several other character relationship end states that result in similar conflicts. Their connections to the NPCs and some side plots are just too strong. It was already very jarring back on NWN last expansion, where you would get resolution to plots from the OC with a different character (and who decided to send Aribeth to hell after she was brainwashed?). And DA:O had much more dramatic weight than NWN.

And for all it´s merits, Kotor 2 resetting the ending of Kotor1 to a default state wasn´t among them. They were careful enough with what characters were reused though, and there were no plots left open as such in 1 that were resolved in 2. And then you had to do TOR...sigh

[In Exile]

devSin wrote...
 how you claimed to end that story. If that's the case, then what's even the point of paying attention to the protagonist, since he's clearly the least relevant to the overarching story being told?

Yup. In all cases, and all Bioware games. The protagonist being irrelevant (beside being amazing at killing) is the essence of the western RPG. 

Modifié par In Exile, 14 août 2013 - 11:14 .

[DarkKnightHolmes]

In Exile wrote...

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...

You can skip through awakening........

Not if you want to import that Warden. DA:A is what the Warden does if the Warden is alive.

Yes but awakening isn't for that. The poiint of awakening was to continue your existing Warden's adventures. The only real reason they added an Orlesian Warden was because not everyone had Origin and they decided to sell it in retails. If your Warden died in DAO, you should simply import your DAO save file to DA2.

[Wulfram]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Ehhhh, in many ways I frankly see this as an unreasonable expectation by many people.

That
you ended up with Leliana in DAO doesn't mean she suddenly stops being
her own character. Problems DO lie with "Warden has disappeared" since,
as Maria says, it suddenly makes her think about it. But Leliana's
presence? Mostly leaves me going "meh."

I don't want Leliana to stop being her own character and just hang around my Warden while the Warden does Wardeny things.  I want my character to hang around Leliana while Leliana does Leliana-ey things.

Since that's what my character would do, based on the dialogue chosen for them during DA:O.

edit:  And also there's "not joined at the hip" and then there's "doesn't even visit the same part of the continent any more", which is what Leliana is.

Modifié par Wulfram, 15 août 2013 - 12:26 .

[Redjackryan27]

so heres a thought... why dont they use the other wardens instead of the HoF? example your cannon is human noble, what happen to the 2nd son of house aeducan? or the circle mage? they still exist and are wardens yes? its something different...

[Pokemario]

Abraham_uk wrote...

PB93 wrote...

Those two as companions? 



But it'd be nice to see them again. Small talk. That's all.

How about fan fiction.
That way, it doesn't spoil the canon for gamers.
At the same time it will satisify those who want Grey Warden Commander and Hawke in DA3.

Better still. Modding for the PC.
Will modding be possible on PS4 and XBox One?
(I'm refeering to the next XBox console, not the first XBox console. Yes, it really is going to be called XBox One).

Modding will be possible on Xbox One...as long as Bioware decides to support it. Let's hope so 

[thebatmanreborn]

Twisted Path wrote...

One thing I don't get is why instead of *Mysteriously Disappearing!* the previous PCs can't quietly retire and then never be mentioned again. Or in the case of Origins; if the the PC became Warden Commander of Ferelden then "Doing Warden-Commander-of-Ferelden-Stuff for the rest of her life," seems like a reasonable fate for that PC and is something we never need to see onscreen again.

As for Dragon Age 2: for me "Hawke moved as far away from Kirkwall as possible because she was sick of that place and had no reason to stay," is a perfectly satisfying conclusion for me. If there had been a multiple choice ending to DA2 with that as one of the options I would have taken it.

Edit:

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Addendum to my above post: I
understand that not everyone wants to know about the Warden and Hawke
because they just want to know about them, but rather because of the
ending of DA2.

Yeah, I think this is definitly the case. If it weren't for the weird quasi-cliffhanger ending of DA2 I think there would be a lot less speculation about or desire to see the mysteriously disapeared protagonists.

Definitely. And the tie between my Warden and Morrigan (left with her into the portal). Storywise, a cliffhanger has been presented that needs to be addressed. Both heroes from DAO and DA2 are too intrigrated into the main plot to be cast away so easily. I'm not saying they have to be companions or anything like that. And I am fine with them not acting exactly as I left them. Years have passed, people change. But storywise, it would create big plot holes if they leave people hanging.