190 réponses à ce sujet

[billy the squid]

VampireSoap wrote...

Eugenics programs are perfectly ok so long as the females don't resist? Some of you are just messed up...1 million bucks says there are hundreds of Qunari females who are secretly not ok with the whole system.

Yeah, every arranged marriage in Thedas, happens willingly too doesn't it. "said the pot to the kettle"

[Xilizhra]

Ideally it would be a personal choice to join the Qun. However ALL societies goes through a period of expansionism, so I cannot fault the Qunari for doing so aswell, regardless of wether I agree with their idealism or not. Because I know that my own culture is no better. No culture is any better at this point, since everyone of them, has gone through such a period.

So that's your solution? I just criticize all cultures who do so.

So, the arranged marriage system still exists in Thedas. If the Qunari is so alien, why do we see such parralels, you even see it with the mages and chantry. Special dispensation, vows of celibacy. Its not that different at all.

Which, again, I'm against.

We already know that the eugenics program is tightly controlled by the Tamarassan, so they will have oversight of who mates with whom and what goes on. There may very well be abuses, no system is perfect, but for a system which pervades all aspect of Qunari life, you don't think that Tamarassan know what goes on when they oversee who mates with who to track genetics?

I don't think they really care as long as their genetic work is uninterrupted.

Are they sentient on the level of humans? Do they create art, civilisation, laws, medical treatment, provide universal education, meritocracies, egalitarian systems of government? No. Next please.

Do we know that the qunari have created any of this and haven't just taken it from the larger society that kicked them out before? Certainly they don't seem to have advanced much in three hundred years. I've also never seen qunari art.

Yeah, every arranged marriage in Thedas, happens willingly too doesn't it. "said the pot to the kettle"

Why exactly does the fact that other people do bad things make the first bad thing suddenly good?

Modifié par Xilizhra, 12 août 2013 - 12:41 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Xilizhra wrote...

Ideally it would be a personal choice to join the Qun. However ALL societies goes through a period of expansionism, so I cannot fault the Qunari for doing so aswell, regardless of wether I agree with their idealism or not. Because I know that my own culture is no better. No culture is any better at this point, since everyone of them, has gone through such a period.

So that's your solution? I just criticize all cultures who do so.

I can't criticize a single culture for doing what ALL cultures do. I can only look to hisotry and see, that all cultures have an expansionistic period, and they either mellow out and becomes less aggressive in their expansion, or they collapse and are destroyed, either by themselves, or an outside force. But for the sake of diversity, I hope the Qunari are not destroyed, and that they instead learn to coexist. However, that would require that the rest of Thedas gets their act together and actualy start developing some societies worthy of keeping.

[billy the squid]

Xilizhra wrote...

We already know that the eugenics program is tightly controlled by the Tamarassan, so they will have oversight of who mates with whom and what goes on. There may very well be abuses, no system is perfect, but for a system which pervades all aspect of Qunari life, you don't think that Tamarassan know what goes on when they oversee who mates with who to track genetics?

I don't think they really care as long as their genetic work is uninterrupted.

Are they sentient on the level of humans? Do they create art, civilisation, laws, medical treatment, provide universal education, meritocracies, egalitarian systems of government? No. Next please.

Do we know that the qunari have created any of this and haven't just taken it from the larger society that kicked them out before? Certainly they don't seem to have advanced much in three hundred years. I've also never seen qunari art.

Yeah, every arranged marriage in Thedas, happens willingly too doesn't it. "said the pot to the kettle"

Why exactly does the fact that other people do bad things make the first bad thing suddenly good?

As I said, damaging another Qunari physically as well as psychologically is anathema to the teachings of the Qun. If nothing else, it wastes recources, the individual has to be cared for by the Tamarassan, who provide the universal medical care, as well as run the eugenics program. This is what I mean about an all pervading system, at some point its going to come to their attention that there is a problem with a particular Qunari unable for fullfil their purpose and the Tamarassan will want to know why. 

Its impersonal and mechanical, but it doesn't hold the same risks, as it's under control of the Triumverate. For want of a better term, you don't damage your breeding stock, as they can't pass on genetic traits.

Well considering Thedas hasn't advanced in the last 1000, and they haven't sailed across the ocean, fought a war agianst an entire continent, established a new state and city, I don't think the Qunari have done terribly for 300 years. They already have their own laws, the Qun. The clearly understand their own technology and metalurgy as the materials used are not found in Thedas such as their cannon, Sten talks of Seheron smelling of teas and incense, Ferelden smelling of wet dog and rubbish. And they clearly grasp the politics of Thedas and the various races, as they use natives as spies and infiltrators, to better understand the natives, so it's obvious they are adapting to the situation. Their first invasion was a simple blunt force attack. What was it the Ataanm being the eyes with which the Qun percieves the world, they now use the Ben Hathrass. 

I don't thin that they produce art in the way you and I would know and understand it. It would have to have a purpose, Sten I believe was meditating in the Crow cage, so they're not, mindless soldiers.

As to the third point, well. The accusations of the Qunari are alien, inhuman and cruel allow state sponsored rape are hypocritical, considering almost every culture in Thedas does the same, and doesn't have the oversight of the Triumverate to provide that safguard.

[VampireSoap]

billy the squid wrote...

VampireSoap wrote...

Eugenics programs are perfectly ok so long as the females don't resist? Some of you are just messed up...1 million bucks says there are hundreds of Qunari females who are secretly not ok with the whole system.

Yeah, every arranged marriage in Thedas, happens willingly too doesn't it. "said the pot to the kettle"

That logic is even more messed up...It's like saying murder of an individual is bad, and at the same time saying genocide is not much worse...No sir, arranged marriage in any form is an extreme violation of personal freedom. And I view such a tradition as hideous as human trafficking. It is an absurd practice even if the victims do not complain.

[reeferdemon]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

However, that would require that the rest of Thedas gets their act together and actualy start developing some societies worthy of keeping.

Worthy of keeping? By what, the Qunari standards? Such a thing seems impossible. 

[billy the squid]

VampireSoap wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

VampireSoap wrote...

Eugenics programs are perfectly ok so long as the females don't resist? Some of you are just messed up...1 million bucks says there are hundreds of Qunari females who are secretly not ok with the whole system.

Yeah, every arranged marriage in Thedas, happens willingly too doesn't it. "said the pot to the kettle"

That logic is even more messed up...It's like saying murder of an individual is bad, and at the same time saying genocide is not much worse...No sir, arranged marriage in any form is an extreme violation of personal freedom. And I view such a tradition as hideous as human trafficking. It is an absurd practice even if the victims do not complain.

So the Qun is bad and so are the elves, and humans, and dwarves and every other system in Thedas. They're all state and culturally sponsored rape, if we use your reasoning. 

[Xilizhra]

Well considering Thedas hasn't advanced in the last 1000, and they haven't sailed across the ocean, fought a war agianst an entire continent, established a new state and city, I don't think the Qunari have done terribly for 300 years. They already have their own laws, the Qun. The clearly understand their own technology and metalurgy as the materials used are not found in Thedas such as their cannon, Sten talks of Seheron smelling of teas and incense, Ferelden smelling of wet dog and rubbish. And they clearly grasp the politics of Thedas and the various races, as they use natives as spies and infiltrators, to better understand the natives, so it's obvious they are adapting to the situation. Their first invasion was a simple blunt force attack. What was it the Ataanm being the eyes with which the Qun percieves the world, they now use the Ben Hathrass.

Tea and incense do not require terribly advanced technology. They also already had cannons 300 years prior and haven't advanced beyond that, even to the simplest of guns. I'm reasonably sure that their tech was developed by their progenitor culture and that the qunari are technologically stagnant, just as much as Thedas if not moreso (and they can't blame the prevalence of magic either, as the qunari have very little knowledge of it).

I don't thin that they produce art in the way you and I would know and understand it. It would have to have a purpose, Sten I believe was meditating in the Crow cage, so they're not, mindless soldiers.

Not mindless, but choiceless. That's not much better.

As to the third point, well. The accusations of the Qunari are alien, inhuman and cruel allow state sponsored rape are hypocritical, considering almost every culture in Thedas does the same, and doesn't have the oversight of the Triumverate to provide that safguard.

All it means is that the rest of Thedas isn't so great either. However, it's better in numerous ways than the Qun.

So the Qun is bad and so are the elves, and humans, and dwarves and every other system in Thedas. They're all state and culturally sponsored rape, if we use your reasoning.

Again, wrong. The Dalish, for one, don't use it.

[VampireSoap]

billy the squid wrote...

VampireSoap wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Yeah, every arranged marriage in Thedas, happens willingly too doesn't it. "said the pot to the kettle"

That logic is even more messed up...It's like saying murder of an individual is bad, and at the same time saying genocide is not much worse...No sir, arranged marriage in any form is an extreme violation of personal freedom. And I view such a tradition as hideous as human trafficking. It is an absurd practice even if the victims do not complain.

So the Qun is bad and so are the elves, and humans, and dwarves and every other system in Thedas. They're all state and culturally sponsored rape, if we use your reasoning. 

I said that arranged marriage is bad, and you just assume that I said everyone in Thedas is bad, WHAT? Does everyone in Thedas practice arranged marriage? Nope, sorry, city elves only. And even if you're a city elf, guess what, YOU CAN SAY NO!! You can tell the elder to **** off and just escape to find the Dalish. No rape involved.

[Jaronking]

The question isn't will the qunari it when wll they invade

[billy the squid]

Xilizhra wrote...

Well considering Thedas hasn't advanced in the last 1000, and they haven't sailed across the ocean, fought a war agianst an entire continent, established a new state and city, I don't think the Qunari have done terribly for 300 years. They already have their own laws, the Qun. The clearly understand their own technology and metalurgy as the materials used are not found in Thedas such as their cannon, Sten talks of Seheron smelling of teas and incense, Ferelden smelling of wet dog and rubbish. And they clearly grasp the politics of Thedas and the various races, as they use natives as spies and infiltrators, to better understand the natives, so it's obvious they are adapting to the situation. Their first invasion was a simple blunt force attack. What was it the Ataanm being the eyes with which the Qun percieves the world, they now use the Ben Hathrass.

Tea and incense do not require terribly advanced technology. They also already had cannons 300 years prior and haven't advanced beyond that, even to the simplest of guns. I'm reasonably sure that their tech was developed by their progenitor culture and that the qunari are technologically stagnant, just as much as Thedas if not moreso (and they can't blame the prevalence of magic either, as the qunari have very little knowledge of it).

I don't thin that they produce art in the way you and I would know and understand it. It would have to have a purpose, Sten I believe was meditating in the Crow cage, so they're not, mindless soldiers.

Not mindless, but choiceless. That's not much better.

As to the third point, well. The accusations of the Qunari are alien, inhuman and cruel allow state sponsored rape are hypocritical, considering almost every culture in Thedas does the same, and doesn't have the oversight of the Triumverate to provide that safguard.

All it means is that the rest of Thedas isn't so great either. However, it's better in numerous ways than the Qun.

So the Qun is bad and so are the elves, and humans, and dwarves and every other system in Thedas. They're all state and culturally sponsored rape, if we use your reasoning.

Again, wrong. The Dalish, for one, don't use it.

You just skipped over the issues of actually understanding the technology to produce the equipment in the first place, requires knowledge of metallurgy, chemistry and craftsmanship. It took over 500 years in medieval Europe for the cannon to become a staple weapon, from the crude weapons in the 1200's to the more sophisticated weapons of the 1700's such advances are often incrimental. And tea and incense require an economy beyond anything of what is present in Thedas, it's actually hard to grow tea outside of water rich environments. So what does that indicate about the economy and technology that the Qun have to irrigate their agricultural lands so they don't suffer starvation and destitution. 

You have a choices, just fewer of them, in return you get a huge number of benefits. Or are 90% of the population in Thedas, who are pesants, enjoy the choice to freeze and starve and be caught in the wars of the nobility?

Yep, okay the Dalish. The one group of scattered nomads invalidates every other instance in Thedas which pervades the continent. 

[Xilizhra]

You just skipped over the issues of actually understanding the technology to produce the equipment in the first place, requires knowledge of metallurgy, chemistry and craftsmanship. It took over 500 years in medieval Europe for the cannon to become a staple weapon, from the crude weapons in the 1200's to the more sophisticated weapons of the 1700's such advances are often incrimental. And tea and incense require an economy beyond anything of what is present in Thedas, it's actually hard to grow tea outside of water rich environments. So what does that indicate about the economy and technology that the Qun have to irrigate their agricultural lands so they don't suffer starvation and destitution.

What I'm saying is that, while the qunari might understand their technology, their society isn't necessarily good for developing new things, and that there's no indication that the qunari have developed anything themselves. And no proof of any advancements either.

You have a choices, just fewer of them, in return you get a huge number of benefits. Or are 90% of the population in Thedas, who are pesants, enjoy the choice to freeze and starve and be caught in the wars of the nobility?

Evidently, otherwise the qunari would have converted everyone instead of slaughtering so many.

Yep, okay the Dalish. The one group of scattered nomads invalidates every other instance in Thedas which pervades the continent.

I also have no idea why two wrongs suddenly make a qunari right.

[VampireSoap]

I agree with Xilizhra, the rest of the medieval Thedas is dark and brutal but still a far better place to live in than the two Qunari Islands. I mean, on a scale of 1 to 10, with one being total freedom, 10 being extreme totalitarianism. I will give the Qun a solid 9 and the rest of Thedas a mediocre 5.

[billy the squid]

VampireSoap wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

VampireSoap wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Yeah, every arranged marriage in Thedas, happens willingly too doesn't it. "said the pot to the kettle"

That logic is even more messed up...It's like saying murder of an individual is bad, and at the same time saying genocide is not much worse...No sir, arranged marriage in any form is an extreme violation of personal freedom. And I view such a tradition as hideous as human trafficking. It is an absurd practice even if the victims do not complain.

So the Qun is bad and so are the elves, and humans, and dwarves and every other system in Thedas. They're all state and culturally sponsored rape, if we use your reasoning. 

I said that arranged marriage is bad, and you just assume that I said everyone in Thedas is bad, WHAT? Does everyone in Thedas practice arranged marriage? Nope, sorry, city elves only. And even if you're a city elf, guess what, YOU CAN SAY NO!! You can tell the elder to **** off and just escape to find the Dalish. No rape involved.

Humans and dwarves practice political marriages, and I'm sure escaping to find Dailish is a great idea, until you find yourself wandering the highways in the night, with no food shelter or money. Brilliant! I always see that, "but you have a choice" and the practicalities of saying no are just ignored conveniently.

If cultures in Thedas do that then their all guilty of state and culturally sponsored rape. This is your reasoning not mine. I'm taking it to the logical conclusion. The Qunari practice eugenics, therefore it's state sponsored rape. Humans practice political and arranged marriage, mages need dispensation and chevaliers are able to take any woman of lower birth. Therefore Humans sponser state and cultural rape. See. I could do it for the Dwarves too.

[Navasha]

You have to remember that the Qunari are a fictional society and because of that the writers have the leeway to play loose with some of the laws of reality.

A collectivist society like the Qunari wouldn't be all rainbows and puppies like it is often described. For them to be successful in reality, you would see no weak, no infirm, or even 'poor' in Qunari society. Any that can not contribute to the whole would be killed. Ants and bees are some of the very few examples of a successful collectivist model in the real world. There is no room for individualism. No artistry, no expression of free will. Every member must be singularly guided toward the survival of the colony. They have traded the ability to advance and grow for raw efficiency.

Personally, I find nothing appealing about being locked into a role within society. To do only has you are commanded to do. It is the absolute epitome of slavery. I can only assume that the Qunari race is genetically pre-disposed to such servitude like ants and bees. When they come to expand, I will gladly fight to destroy them and prevent any innocent people being forcefully subjected to such an awful existence.

[VampireSoap]

Jaronking wrote...

The question isn't will the qunari it when wll they invade

I think there's still a tiny chance that they won't invade...They might have their own problems to deal with, a massive demon invasion, perhaps, given what we've seen in the trailer. Or a major rebellion? I can see that happening.

And guys, please stop being so hung up in debating the nature of the Qunari people and return to the topic, alright?

[VampireSoap]

billy the squid wrote...

Humans and dwarves practice political marriages, and I'm sure escaping to find Dailish is a great idea, until you find yourself wandering the highways in the night, with no food shelter or money. Brilliant! I always see that, "but you have a choice" and the practicalities of saying no are just ignored conveniently.

If cultures in Thedas do that then their all guilty of state and culturally sponsored rape. This is your reasoning not mine. I'm taking it to the logical conclusion. The Qunari practice eugenics, therefore it's state sponsored rape. Humans practice political and arranged marriage, mages need dispensation and chevaliers are able to take any woman of lower birth. Therefore Humans sponser state and cultural rape. See. I could do it for the Dwarves too.

If you've played as a Dalish warden in DAO, you would know that a city elf actually did escape and made it to a Dalish camp. In this scenario, saying no doesn't mean death, doesn't mean imprisonment, doesn't mean being sent to "reeducation", and that's a HUGE difference. You can NOT ignore that there's a certain degree of freedom of choice with the humans. Human states don't enforce political marriage so intensely like the Qunari. It's NOT the same thing, not even close. And what's your point, really? Two wrongs make a right? Human states are bad so Qunari being bad is ok? WHAT?

[Potato Cat]

Well I still think the Qunari can only lose from the conflict due to the mages no doubt fleeing to Tevinter, but I would like to know how widespread the damage to the Veil is. Is it limited to the south of Thedas, or is it the whole continent/world?

[Navasha]

Actually, I think that the Qunari invading is not really that inevitable. I think before long the Qunari will start to unravel with all the elves and humans that are joining of their "choice". The promise of Qunari society is alluring to some, but the reality of it would be much less so. I think they will have to have their own internal rebellions and mass purges before long. The chaotic nature of absorbing free-willed individuals into a collective society is bound to cause turbulence.

A collectivist society can't exist without near perfect order and every member absolutely not caring about their position in society. The ditch digger and the sewer cleaner must absolutely LOVE what they are doing and want for nothing better in life in order for it to work. Absorbing individuals through force or luring individuals in through promises of order and a place in society ultimately falls to pieces when those individuals are not happy with their chosen station.

The mere existence of the Tal'vashoth demonstrates that even the the horned species isn't completely mindless drones and have the capacity to aspire to greater or at least a different way of life.

Of course, it maybe these "purges" and realization that they can't grow their society by forced assimilation that have cause the Qunari to halt their advance right now.

[phantomrachie]

VampireSoap wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

VampireSoap wrote...

Single-party rule, means of production collectively owned by the society, free access to articles of consumption, distribution based on need. Yeah, they aren't communists. I imagined all that. My bad.

I did not realize that selective breeding, removed social identity, and aggressive expansionism, was part of the communistic agenda....

Qunari are NOT communists. There might be similarities between the two, sure. That does not make them the same though. Buddhist and Hindus also share alot of similarities, I wouldn't call those two religions the same either.

:lol: those are exactly part of the communist agenda. Marx repeatedly critisizes the traditional family structure. In his utopia, all children are raised by the state, and sex is always a product of noncommited relationships. Without private property, individuality is naturally out the window. And it is a communist's duty to rid the world of the evil that is capitalism...by force. He emphasizes a million times that violent revolution is the only solution. So, yeah, go read the communist manifesto, please.

I have read the Communist Manifesto by Carl Marx and I'm wondering if you've read some other book by the same name or perhaps the clif notes version.

Marx critisizes the "traditional" family not because he wanted all childeren to be rasied by the state but because in many "traditional" familes, women pretty much sold into marriage via a dowery and it was this consept of ownership that he and Engels critized.

There is also a ton more wrong with your comment but here is not the place to debate it. Perhaps you should start by reading the wiki article

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marxism

[Potato Cat]

Navasha, I disagree. A lot of Viddethari are escaped Tevinter slaves, city elves, (both get to enjoy a life free of racial discrimination and can potentially have higher positions than humans), and the Rivaini, who have a religion and culture that isn't too far from the Qun. They want converts who want to be a part of the Qun, as I've already said in this thread, the qamek a last resort. The mindless slaves aren't ideal but wasting people is worse.

[Beerfish]

Jaronking wrote...

The question isn't will the qunari it when wll they invade

Agreed and this is why the Tevinters have a brain and the rest of thedas doesn't.

[Xilizhra]

Elfman wrote...

Navasha, I disagree. A lot of Viddethari are escaped Tevinter slaves, city elves, (both get to enjoy a life free of racial discrimination and can potentially have higher positions than humans), and the Rivaini, who have a religion and culture that isn't too far from the Qun. They want converts who want to be a part of the Qun, as I've already said in this thread, the qamek a last resort. The mindless slaves aren't ideal but wasting people is worse.

They would, however, rather reduce everyone to mindless slaves than see anyone living freely outside the Qun. Which says quite enough.

[Vortex13]

Xilizhra wrote...

Either way, given that the darkspawn don't seem intelligent enough for morality to really apply to them, the qunari are the greatest evil Thedas has ever seen, and among its worst threats.

What about the Awakened? Where would they rank compared to the Qunari?

[Xilizhra]

Vortex13 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Either way, given that the darkspawn don't seem intelligent enough for morality to really apply to them, the qunari are the greatest evil Thedas has ever seen, and among its worst threats.

What about the Awakened? Where would they rank compared to the Qunari?

The Architect seems... well-intentioned, sort of, but having very little understanding of how non-darkspawn minds work. The Mother was just insane, so I don't know if she counts.