190 réponses à ce sujet

[VampireSoap]

phantomrachie wrote...

I have read the Communist Manifesto by Carl Marx and I'm wondering if you've read some other book by the same name or perhaps the clif notes version.

Marx critisizes the "traditional" family not because he wanted all childeren to be rasied by the state but because in many "traditional" familes, women pretty much sold into marriage via a dowery and it was this consept of ownership that he and Engels critized.

There is also a ton more wrong with your comment but here is not the place to debate it. Perhaps you should start by reading the wiki article

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marxism

We both read the same article and reached different conclusions. We have different impressions of what the author's trying to convey. It's perfectly natural, but there's no need to start by saying I'm ignorant of the subject of discussion and that I was lying about it all along. That's...just rude.

Anyway, Marx's problem is that he usually critisizes capitalist ideals without providing any really workable alternatives. The alternatives he gives are either way too ideal or simply nonexistant. The family and marriage ARE changing institutions that reflect, in an overall way, the basic economic relations in society. Without privite property, there'll be no family. So even Marx doesn't tell you exactly what to do with the "traditional" family that's "part of the capitalism problem". He pretty much leaves you with no choice but to separate every loving couple you see and put their children into state sponsored care centers. And I think that's no different from what the Qunari are doing. But you're right, this would be an interesting debate...if it's not so off topic :lol:

[VampireSoap]

Xilizhra wrote...

The Architect seems... well-intentioned, sort of, but having very little understanding of how non-darkspawn minds work. The Mother was just insane, so I don't know if she counts.

In The Calling, the Architect wants to "poison" everyone in Thedas to achieve his delusional goal...

[Bigdoser]

Eh I agree with some aspects of the qunrai I mean during dragon age 2 I agreed with the Arishok quite a bit during act 2 but the way they treat their mages? Man thats nuts plus the whole woman not fighting thing.

Its kinda hilarious that sten at the end of the day just simply thinks your fem warden is not a woman but a man. XD

[Xilizhra]

VampireSoap wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The Architect seems... well-intentioned, sort of, but having very little understanding of how non-darkspawn minds work. The Mother was just insane, so I don't know if she counts.

In The Calling, the Architect wants to "poison" everyone in Thedas to achieve his delusional goal...

It apparently realized that wasn't going to work by the time of Awakening.

[Hilarystamp]

VampireSoap wrote...

Hilarystamp wrote...

VampireSoap wrote...

I really hope there won't be a fourth game...I mean, let's just admit it, the DA series should've ended when the legendary warden struck down the Archdemon in the year of 9:31 Dragon Age.

Why?  There is a whole world out their yet to be discovered.......many more adventures! Many more games

And much more money, of course Death to game milking! Death to all unnecessary sequels!!

Heres the fix.......just don't buy it

[Scarlet Rabbi]

"Communist" is much too kind of a description for those animals.

They will doubtless invade in full scale one day (since they know what is best for everyone, and they will kill you if you happen to disagree), the only question is when will they do it?

[Jedi Master of Orion]

VampireSoap wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Qunari don't associate sex with anything but breeding. That doesn't mean the utilize "state authorized rape." Especially since the state is run by women.

Not all Qunari associate sex with only breeding. Your assumption is illogical, since a group of Qunari actually rises up in open rebellion against the state, and therefore it's natural to deduce that some females who are not as brave can only suffer in silence. And the state is not run by women, it is run by the totalitarian ideal that is the Qun. And the Qun dictates who you **** along with every other aspect of your life.

Tamassran: A powerful Qunari priestess who admisters Qun sanctioned rituals and governs social engineering practices.

That's straight out of World of Thedas. As per Sten, they are responsible for raising children, deciding what role each of them has and how society in general functions. They are all women. And they are responsible for how the state runs.

Also as a side note, the Qunari's scientific advances are definately the result of the rule of the Qun. The Ariqun actually has the job of promoting scienece.

[Vortex13]

Xilizhra wrote...

Vortex13 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Either way, given that the darkspawn don't seem intelligent enough for morality to really apply to them, the qunari are the greatest evil Thedas has ever seen, and among its worst threats.

What about the Awakened? Where would they rank compared to the Qunari?

The Architect seems... well-intentioned, sort of, but having very little understanding of how non-darkspawn minds work. The Mother was just insane, so I don't know if she counts.

Forgetting the Architect for the moment, what about the Disciples, are they a threat?

Obviously the Taint is an issue, but supposing that they could control it to not poision everything around them; how would you rank the Disciples in comparision to the Qunari?

Disciples, and the Awakened Darkspawn in general, would have not have a uniformed society, so having all of their 'citizens' confrom to a singular goal is not likely going to happen. Also they are fairly behind the rest of Thedas, technologically speaking; although that doesn't say much considering all Darkspawn are immortal (baring death in combat); they could simply wait for a civilization to rise and fall and freely take what advances the fallen society had.

[VampireSoap]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Tamassran: A powerful Qunari priestess who admisters Qun sanctioned rituals and governs social engineering practices.

That's straight out of World of Thedas. As per Sten, they are responsible for raising children, deciding what role each of them has and how society in general functions. They are all women. And they are responsible for how the state runs.

Also as a side note, the Qunari's scientific advances are definately the result of the rule of the Qun. The Ariqun actually has the job of promoting scienece.

[Sigh] Ok...women DON'T run the state, they are only responsible for OVERSEERING the eugenics programs. They CAN'T do whatever the heck they like. They have to follow the absolute law and guideline that is the Qun. (And big surprise, the Qun was written by men) Even if some of them feel strongly about the Eugenics programs, even if some of them are rape victims themselves, they would still force someone else into a locked room and get raped if necessary. Because there can not be any DEVIATION from what the Qun demends, you get it?

Ok, listen, guys. Let's time travel back to 1937 imperial Japan. The Japanese have just "arrested" 500 Chinese and put them into a concentration camp. And they put 20 Chinese in charge, and all these 20 Chinese answer to 5 other Chinese. Does it mean that the 25 Chinese are masters of their own? Does it mean they would be nice to their own kind? Maybe. But can they do anything other than what they're told to do? No. Unless they want to get shot. You see the metaphor here, guys? I'm really trying here...

Modifié par VampireSoap, 12 août 2013 - 07:58 .

[VampireSoap]

Scarlet Rabbi wrote...

"Communist" is much too kind of a description for those animals.

They will doubtless invade in full scale one day (since they know what is best for everyone, and they will kill you if you happen to disagree), the only question is when will they do it?

Hey, that's racist! Remember, dehumanization of your enemy is the first step of committing genocide.

[Bogrot]

Although Vampire Soap is kinda trolly, I can relate to his comparison. The Qun is obviously not identical with Communism, but it has a lot o common aspects. It's more of an Orwellian like society based upon a strict code (a la Bushido or Lycurgus/Plato's Republic).
On a personal note, being from an Eastern Orthodox (Black Chantry, Tevinter) country that experienced both Ottoman and Communist domination, I naturally view the Qun as nightmarish...

[VampireSoap]

Parmida wrote...

The title made me giggle. It reminded me of the Book Chute in the sink of FallOut:New Vegas.
http://fallout.wikia...wiki/Book_Chute

I think I'm more like liberty prime :lol:

"Democracy is not negotiable. Death is a preferable alternative to communism. Embrace democracy or you will be eradicated!"

[Jedi Master of Orion]

VampireSoap wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Tamassran: A powerful Qunari priestess who admisters Qun sanctioned rituals and governs social engineering practices.

That's straight out of World of Thedas. As per Sten, they are responsible for raising children, deciding what role each of them has and how society in general functions. They are all women. And they are responsible for how the state runs.

Also as a side note, the Qunari's scientific advances are definately the result of the rule of the Qun. The Ariqun actually has the job of promoting scienece.

[Sigh] Ok...women DON'T run the state, they are only responsible for OVERSEERING the eugenics programs. They CAN'T do whatever the heck they like. They have to follow the absolute law and guideline that is the Qun. (And big surprise, the Qun was written by men) Even if some of them feel strongly about the Eugenics programs, even if some of them are rape victims themselves, they would still force someone else into a locked room and get raped if necessary. Because there can not be any DEVIATION from what the Qun demends, you get it?

Ok, listen, guys. Let's time travel back to 1937 imperial Japan. The Japanese have just "arrested" 500 Chinese and put them into a concentration camp. And they put 20 Chinese in charge, and all these 20 Chinese answer to 5 other Chinese. Does it mean that the 25 Chinese are masters of their own? Does it mean they would be nice to their own kind? Maybe. But can they do anything other than what they're told to do? No. Unless they want to get shot. You see the metaphor here, guys? I'm really trying here...

Your metaphor is wrong. The analogy falls apart pretty quickly. Women aren't like Chinese prisoners in Japan the Qun. They don't live in foreign concetration camps while men live in luxury and freedom. Men aren't like the Japanese state. I fail to see what the fact that Koslun was a man has to do with anything. Men don't specifically oppress women in the Qun. They don't have any more freedom. They are equal. Tamassrans have the most influential role in all of Qunari society. Also, being raised by the Tamassrans, Qunari women don't have a problem with the breeding  program, but even if they did, Tamassrans don't just leave women in locked rooms and force sex upon them. That's not the solution they use to the problem.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 12 août 2013 - 10:01 .

[Scarlet Rabbi]

VampireSoap wrote...

Scarlet Rabbi wrote...

"Communist" is much too kind of a description for those animals.

They will doubtless invade in full scale one day (since they know what is best for everyone, and they will kill you if you happen to disagree), the only question is when will they do it?

Hey, that's racist! Remember, dehumanization of your enemy is the first step of committing genocide.

Dehumanizing the Qunari would be impossible, since they are not human lol.

All joking aside, if you are referring to human converts to the Qun, they deserve the same or a worse fate then their horned masters. They are mindless followers who would become slaves in exchange for so called "order". Nothing vital would be lost with their death.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Bigdoser wrote...

Eh I agree with some aspects of the qunrai I mean during dragon age 2 I agreed with the Arishok quite a bit during act 2 but the way they treat their mages? Man thats nuts plus the whole woman not fighting thing.

Its kinda hilarious that sten at the end of the day just simply thinks your fem warden is not a woman but a man. XD

Qunari women fight, they just aren't soldiers. And considering the obvious physiological differences between a male and female Qunari, the reasoning behind using male soldiers exclusively is obvious.

[VampireSoap]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Your metaphor is wrong. The analogy falls apart pretty quickly. Women aren't like Chinese prisoners in Japan the Qun. They don't live in foreign concetration camps while men live in luxury and freedom. Men aren't like the Japanese state. I fail to see what the fact that Koslun was a man has to do with anything. Men don't specifically oppress women in the Qun. They don't have any more freedom. They are equal. Tamassrans have the most influential role in all of Qunari society. Also, being raised by the Tamassrans, Qunari women don't have a problem with the breeding  program, but even if they did, Tamassrans don't just leave women in locked rooms and force sex upon them. That's not the solution they use to the problem.

As a female Qunari, can you refuse to participate in the selective breeding that is demanded by the Qun? Yes or no? As a Tamassran, can you refuse to participate in your administrative duty as is your function within Qun? Yes or no? And if yes, what are the consequences of your refusal? Death? Imprisonment? Being sent to "reeducation"? Every Qunari is a prisoner of the Qun, some more than the others. So after all of our discussions, you still think the Qunari laws aren't sexist? Freedom of choice isn't important to you? Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness mean nothing to you? People can take away all these unalienable rights from you, and you'll be totally cool about it so long as they tell you "it's for the greater good"? There is no excuse for totalitarianism. Qunari women aren't allowed to fight, military duties are off limits, they aren't allowed to choose who they sleep with, they aren't allowed to see their own children...I'm sorry, either you're a kid who sees good in everyone despite evidence to the contrary, or you're trying everything you can to win the argument, including being dishonest about the facts.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

VampireSoap wrote...

Freedom of choice isn't important to you? Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness mean nothing to you? People can take away all these unalienable rights from you, and you'll be totally cool about it so long as they tell you "it's for the greater good"?

There is no excuse for totalitarianism. Qunari women aren't allowed to fight, military duties are off limits, they aren't allowed to choose who they sleep with, they aren't allowed to see their own children...I'm sorry, either you're a kid who sees good in everyone despite evidence to the contrary, or you're trying everything you can to win the argument, including being dishonest about the facts.

Did I say any of that? Did I even say that I approve of the Qunari's way of doing things in general? No. I'm not the one who's being dishonest.

What I was saying was that your analogy and your appraisal of Qunari rape pits was wrong.

Some qunari laws may be sexist but they don't favor men over women. Women aren't an oppressed minorty in the Qun any worse than men are. You even said that "every Qunari" is a prisoner of the Qun.

Foshizzlin wrote...

Again, I don't like all the Qunari favoritism or "threatening"ism. They're not all they're cracked up to be. I don't think they have the strength necessary to wipe out or pose a serious threat to any but the weakest opposition.

Why? They fought every nation combined in Thedas to a stalemate even after a 150 years of fighting in their home turf.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 13 août 2013 - 02:46 .

[Jaronking]

 The qunari fought every nation combined in Thedas to a stalemate even after a 150 years of fighting in their home turf.
That not true they fought less then half of every every nation in Thedas to a stalemate imagine if they would fight 3/4 or even half of every nation in Thedas they would the qunari would be defeatet easly and sorry don't know how to quote

Modifié par Jaronking, 13 août 2013 - 05:35 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

In the New Exalted Marches it was said that every nation in Thedas (plus all the pirates) participated.

"50 years. That's how long it took the Imperium to drive out the Qunari occupation. But the rest of Northern Thedas was not so lucky.

Both Divines, white and black, declared Exalted Marches and for the only time since the Schism of the Chantry, they worked together. A century-long siege resulted, with the giant Qunari entrenched in Antiva and Rivain, and all of Thedas throwing armies against them.

The war drained the resources of every nation in Thedas, leaving most on the brink of collapse. For the giants, it did not appear to be the damage to their armada or the loss of their soldiers, but the terrible toll upon the Rivaini population that prompted their retreat." - Codex Entry: The Llomeryn Accords.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 13 août 2013 - 05:58 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

VampireSoap wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Your metaphor is wrong. The analogy falls apart pretty quickly. Women aren't like Chinese prisoners in Japan the Qun. They don't live in foreign concetration camps while men live in luxury and freedom. Men aren't like the Japanese state. I fail to see what the fact that Koslun was a man has to do with anything. Men don't specifically oppress women in the Qun. They don't have any more freedom. They are equal. Tamassrans have the most influential role in all of Qunari society. Also, being raised by the Tamassrans, Qunari women don't have a problem with the breeding  program, but even if they did, Tamassrans don't just leave women in locked rooms and force sex upon them. That's not the solution they use to the problem.

As a female Qunari, can you refuse to participate in the selective breeding that is demanded by the Qun? Yes or no? As a Tamassran, can you refuse to participate in your administrative duty as is your function within Qun? Yes or no? And if yes, what are the consequences of your refusal? Death? Imprisonment? Being sent to "reeducation"? Every Qunari is a prisoner of the Qun, some more than the others. So after all of our discussions, you still think the Qunari laws aren't sexist? Freedom of choice isn't important to you? Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness mean nothing to you? People can take away all these unalienable rights from you, and you'll be totally cool about it so long as they tell you "it's for the greater good"? There is no excuse for totalitarianism. Qunari women aren't allowed to fight, military duties are off limits, they aren't allowed to choose who they sleep with, they aren't allowed to see their own children...I'm sorry, either you're a kid who sees good in everyone despite evidence to the contrary, or you're trying everything you can to win the argument, including being dishonest about the facts.

And again you display perfect and utter failure to understand the Qunari minds.
Qunari does not have a sex drive like we know it. They are born and bred to not think of it like that. They see sex as only a means to multiply. Therefore, Qunari men and women (both of them have no choice, though you seem very upset about the women, for some reason) might not have any choice in who they breed with, but then again, they have no desire for sexual relationships to begin with. A Qunari probably sees his or hers participation in the breeding program as a civic duty, probably even as an honor, since only the best are considered for it. Also the Qunari have no desire to raise their own children. Qunari society does not indoctrinate the Qunari people to feel any affection towards their own offspring. The children are however considered to belong to the Qunari as a whole, and are taken care of by the Tamassrans.

And "freedom of choice" and "liberty" are meaningless, and holds absolutely no importance to me. The only thing that holds importance to me is happiness. I would much rather live in a totalitarian society and be truly happy, than live as a "free" man and be miserable.

[Xilizhra]

Forgetting the Architect for the moment, what about the Disciples, are they a threat?

Obviously the Taint is an issue, but supposing that they could control it to not poision everything around them; how would you rank the Disciples in comparision to the Qunari?

Of the few Disciples we've met... four or five are threatening, one isn't. I'm not sure how much inherent darkspawn aggression drives them, but they definitely have potential to not fall to it. However, there are so few Disciples that I doubt they could be considered a society.

Qunari does not have a sex drive like we know it. They are born and bred to not think of it like that. They see sex as only a means to multiply. Therefore, Qunari men and women (both of them have no choice, though you seem very upset about the women, for some reason) might not have any choice in who they breed with, but then again, they have no desire for sexual relationships to begin with. A Qunari probably sees his or hers participation in the breeding program as a civic duty, probably even as an honor, since only the best are considered for it. Also the Qunari have no desire to raise their own children. Qunari society does not indoctrinate the Qunari people to feel any affection towards their own offspring. The children are however considered to belong to the Qunari as a whole, and are taken care of by the Tamassrans.

That's all very well and good for kossith qunari assuming their mental physiology works like that, but what of members of other races, who overwhelmingly tend to stick together into their own families when given the choice?

And "freedom of choice" and "liberty" are meaningless, and holds absolutely no importance to me. The only thing that holds importance to me is happiness. I would much rather live in a totalitarian society and be truly happy, than live as a "free" man and be miserable.

So you may be a convert. Others would disagree and would be among the many people who died resisting the qunari. Both should be free to join or reject the Qun as they choose, but the very nature of the Qun prevents such freedom.

[Mornmagor]

Does it matter if they are advanced or not? Or if their ideals work? They don't for me.

It's simple. If they try to force them on me, and conquer my land and kill us all in the process, i will kill as many as i can.

[VampireSoap]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And again you display perfect and utter failure to understand the Qunari minds.
Qunari does not have a sex drive like we know it. They are born and bred to not think of it like that. They see sex as only a means to multiply. Therefore, Qunari men and women (both of them have no choice, though you seem very upset about the women, for some reason) might not have any choice in who they breed with, but then again, they have no desire for sexual relationships to begin with. A Qunari probably sees his or hers participation in the breeding program as a civic duty, probably even as an honor, since only the best are considered for it. Also the Qunari have no desire to raise their own children. Qunari society does not indoctrinate the Qunari people to feel any affection towards their own offspring. The children are however considered to belong to the Qunari as a whole, and are taken care of by the Tamassrans.

And "freedom of choice" and "liberty" are meaningless, and holds absolutely no importance to me. The only thing that holds importance to me is happiness. I would much rather live in a totalitarian society and be truly happy, than live as a "free" man and be miserable.

What you're saying doesn't make any sense...Within the Qun, there are human qunari, elven quanri and drawven quanri even...Qun is a state that has an ethnically diverse population. The word Qunari literally means "those who follow the Qun"...and where did you get the idea that Qunari are so physiologically different that their sex drives are nonexistant? I mean, WHAT? What's the basis of that assumption? Being horny is an evolutionary trait, you can't brainwash an entire species to a point that they don't feel lust anymore, that's insane. And even David Gaider himself said the horned giants still have feelings, he said, "they aren't robots, you know"

And liberty means nothing to you? Really? I sincerely hope that you aren't an American, but if you're, I hope you don't vote. Because as God is my witness, there're already too many facists in my country. I would rather die before I let a tyranny take over. You can advertise your security, technology and "happiness" all day long, Mister, but I'll just tell you to **** off and no body takes away my freedom.

Modifié par VampireSoap, 13 août 2013 - 12:55 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

VampireSoap wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And again you display perfect and utter failure to understand the Qunari minds.
Qunari does not have a sex drive like we know it. They are born and bred to not think of it like that. They see sex as only a means to multiply. Therefore, Qunari men and women (both of them have no choice, though you seem very upset about the women, for some reason) might not have any choice in who they breed with, but then again, they have no desire for sexual relationships to begin with. A Qunari probably sees his or hers participation in the breeding program as a civic duty, probably even as an honor, since only the best are considered for it. Also the Qunari have no desire to raise their own children. Qunari society does not indoctrinate the Qunari people to feel any affection towards their own offspring. The children are however considered to belong to the Qunari as a whole, and are taken care of by the Tamassrans.

And "freedom of choice" and "liberty" are meaningless, and holds absolutely no importance to me. The only thing that holds importance to me is happiness. I would much rather live in a totalitarian society and be truly happy, than live as a "free" man and be miserable.

What you're saying doesn't make any sense...Within the Qun, there are human qunari, elven quanri and drawven quanri even...Qun is a state that has an ethnically diverse population. The word Qunari literally means "those who follow the Qun"...and where did you get the idea that Qunari are so physiologically different that their sex drives are nonexistant? I mean, WHAT? What's the basis of that assumption? Being horny is an evolutionary trait, you can't brainwash an entire species to a point that they don't feel lust anymore, that's insane. And even David Gaider himself said the horned giants still have feelings, he said, "they aren't robots, you know"

And liberty means nothing to you? Really? I sincerely hope that you aren't an American, but if you're, I hope you don't vote. Because as God is my witness, there're already too many facists in my country. I would rather die before I let a tyranny take over. You can advertise your security, technology and "happiness" all day long, Mister, but I'll just tell you to **** off and no body takes away my freedom.

Oh I'm sure that biologically speaking all Qunari still have some sexdrive. However, they just have the personal discipline to put themselves above that. And all Viddathari undergo a long period of reeducation before they can become Qunari. During this time, they are taught the same values and discipline. Sexdrive is a fundamentally selfish desire, and there is nothing more appalling to a Qunari, than the idea of selfishness, therefore every Qunari, will rid themselves of all selfish desires, in their pursuit of fulfilment.

And no I am not an American, and thus have lived happily free of the American "freedom" my entire life.