190 réponses à ce sujet

[VampireSoap]

GodWood wrote...

VampireSoap wrote...
Single-party rule, means of production collectively owned by the society, free access to articles of consumption, distribution based on need. Yeah, they aren't communists. I imagined all that. My bad.

Autocratic dictator with absolute power, convoluted bureaucracy vying for rulers favour, semi-capitalistic economy, institutionalized racism with clear racial hierarchy.

Fereldan is Nazi Germany. Alistair is Hitler.

-------

Anyways, the whole communist thing was simply a clever way for the OP to draw people into his thread as it was not at all related to his question. 

LOL, this is actually funny! Heil Theirin!

Seriously though, absolute Monarchy as a form of government is traditionally on the "right" of the political spectrum. They're just not on the far right, like the varies fascist regimes in the last century. Also, it's so funny that you think about the title that way! haha When I wrote it, I did not expect people would be so focused on just one word. I just kinda assumed that lots of people would agree with the idea of Qunari being communists and just move on and talk about the hypothetical invasion.

Modifié par VampireSoap, 19 août 2013 - 03:21 .

[Plaintiff]

DuskWarden wrote...

Ausstig wrote...

DuskWarden wrote...

And those who have had their tranquil state temporarily removed begged for death rather than return to it. I don't think the Qun and being made tranquil are in the same league really.

I agree. 

The Qun is much worse. It destorys the minds of those who follow it. Those who escape would beg for death if they were not so indoctrinted. 

No it doesn't. And no they don't. The Tal-Vashoth abandoned the Qun without having their minds destroyed, and since they are the only people we have seen who have done so, where on earth do you get that idea from?

Probably because DA2 and the ancillary comics both mentioned that the Qunari possess, and make use of Qamek, a substance that reduces individuals to mindless slaves.

[VampireSoap]

Giantdeathrobot wrote...

Equating a society with a caste system to communism seems like a critical failure in basic politics to me. But I digress. There's enough name-calling, dubious philosophy and chest-tumping in this thread already

The Qunari would be fools not to take full advantage of the chaos in Thedas to advance their position, especially after (as far as they know) those dastardly Kirkwallers killed their Arishok. Well, unless the Rift or whatever summons those ugly critters in the trailer also affects them. But since they already have Qunari modeled into the game, I doubt it will only be to have them stand around glaring at people.

Name one caste system that even remotely resembles what the Qunari have.

You brought up a very interesting topic! I haven't read the books or the comics yet, so I have no idea how the Qunari react to the death of their military leader. Do they see it as a glorious duel between two mighty warriors? Or do they just despise humans even more? Are they capable of experiencing hatred? Capable of taking revenge?

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Plaintiff wrote...

DuskWarden wrote...

Ausstig wrote...

DuskWarden wrote...

And those who have had their tranquil state temporarily removed begged for death rather than return to it. I don't think the Qun and being made tranquil are in the same league really.

I agree. 

The Qun is much worse. It destorys the minds of those who follow it. Those who escape would beg for death if they were not so indoctrinted. 

No it doesn't. And no they don't. The Tal-Vashoth abandoned the Qun without having their minds destroyed, and since they are the only people we have seen who have done so, where on earth do you get that idea from?

Probably because DA2 and the ancillary comics both mentioned that the Qunari possess, and make use of Qamek, a substance that reduces individuals to mindless slaves.

Yeah but they don't use that on everyone. In fact I imagine they don't use it on most.

VampireSoap wrote...
You brought up a very interesting topic! I haven't read the books or the comics yet, so I have no idea how the Qunari react to the death of their military leader. Do they see it as a glorious duel between two mighty warriors? Or do they just despise humans even more? Are they capable of experiencing hatred? Capable of taking revenge?

The Qunari the Arishok brought with him to the Keep didn't seem to react especially angrily to his defeat. Neither did the one who returned to reclaim the swords. In fact, almost none of the Qunari seemed to react that badly to any problem that wasn't directly related to their role.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 19 août 2013 - 06:34 .

[Richardthelionbutt]

I think we know far too little about the Qunari to make any kind of "THEY ARE SOULESS MONSTERS" judgement here. Perhaps Seheron could be a luxurious capital of tea and incense. I believe the Qunari is more "feminine" than the picture the Arishok and the Sten paints. Anything other than the Antaam is much more matriarchal than what we are imagining here. The Arishok, albeit being in such an expansive and aggressive culture, is the weakest among the Triumvirate. The Arigena is the Ministry of Education and the "mind" of the Qun. In a highly unified culture SHE possesses the ultimate power in Qunari society. We must look at this ideology from a more "medieval" perspective. Ideas of free speech and individual freedom are not as prevalent as, say modern day Western Developed Countries. We shouldn't view doctrines of Thedas the same way as modern day ideologies. In medieval periods, the power of the group is much more valued, if you want to survive, you must work together, and the fittest among these countries expand and become Superpowers. The British Empire used absolutely intolerable methods to expand its resources and strength if you look at it in today's standards. However, after the centuries of development, they were also the pioneers of human rights in the Age of Enlightenment. Development requires Expansionism, and expansionism requires violence. Period. There may be other methods of expansion today, but that is the cold hard truth during the medieval periods of Thedas.
And also what the hell was this "Forced Liberty" <- This is what we call a paradox.
After reading all of these posts, I feel like living in the Cold War listening to Anti-Communist radios,"Hey the Lees are commies!" Come on guys, this is not appropriate for our forums and certainly will only show your ignorance.
Drop the frakkin' political ideology debate.

[septembervirgin]

Qunari have a lovely system of government with less wasted effort and less suffering than most lands in Known Thedas. I'd support their invasion.

[Mercedes-Benz]

VampireSoap wrote...

GodWood wrote...

VampireSoap wrote...
Single-party rule, means of production collectively owned by the society, free access to articles of consumption, distribution based on need. Yeah, they aren't communists. I imagined all that. My bad.

Autocratic dictator with absolute power, convoluted bureaucracy vying for rulers favour, semi-capitalistic economy, institutionalized racism with clear racial hierarchy.

Fereldan is Nazi Germany. Alistair is Hitler.

-------

Anyways, the whole communist thing was simply a clever way for the OP to draw people into his thread as it was not at all related to his question. 

LOL, this is actually funny! Heil Theirin!

Seriously though, absolute Monarchy as a form of government is traditionally on the "right" of the political spectrum. They're just not on the far right, like the varies fascist regimes in the last century. Also, it's so funny that you think about the title that way! haha When I wrote it, I did not expect people would be so focused on just one word. I just kinda assumed that lots of people would agree with the idea of Qunari being communists and just move on and talk about the hypothetical invasion.

****sm (national socialism) was/is on the far-left of the political spectrum, not on the right, and the only reason that the fascist party was ever formed in Italy is because Mussolini was kicked out of the Italian Socialist Party.

[Navasha]

It boils down to this really.

If you believe that individuals should be allowed to live their own lives as they see fit, make their own choices for good or for bad and reap the benefits or suffer the consequences of their own decision, then you are going to hate the Qunari way of life.

If you believe that society should be highly organized by the government and every person should perform a function for the benefit of society. If you value order and efficiency over what we typical consider human values like free-will and social mobility. If you believe that emotions and family bonds are basically meaningless and have no problem forcing all these beliefs onto others for their "benefit", then you will love the Qunari society.

I personally will take the chaotic existence where you have the freedom to make of life what you want of it over the highly-ordered world of the Qunari where there is basically no meaning to life outside of advancing the Qunari. To me, the Qunari are little more than sentient ants, whose only purpose is to expand and build new colonies. So in that sense, yes... they will eventually invade to take new territory and make slaves of even more innocent people.

[Giantdeathrobot]

Mercedes-Benz wrote...

****sm (national socialism) was/is on the far-left of the political spectrum, not on the right, and the only reason that the fascist party was ever formed in Italy is because Mussolini was kicked out of the Italian Socialist Party.

Common  mistake, and blatantly false. ''socialism'' was a buzzword used by the ****s/Fascists to rally as much people as possible (just like ''national''). ****s had more root in the right side of the spectrum; private enterprise, family values, nationalism, most of their early benefactors were industrialists and they kept that support going for years. The ideology itself made sure it couldn't be placed on the spectrum as it saw itself as a ''third way'', but it sure as hell wasn't anything close to socialism.

As for the Qunari, they're also hard to place since no system quite like them have existed thus far. The closest equivalent is philosophical, as in Plato's Republic. They seem left-leaning in their focus on collective efforts and utter mockery of family values, but then again caste/class systems are anathema to the left. The spectrum wasn't made to accomodate such an ideology, methinks, as it probably couldn't exist IRL.

[VampireSoap]

Navasha wrote...

It boils down to this really.

If you believe that individuals should be allowed to live their own lives as they see fit, make their own choices for good or for bad and reap the benefits or suffer the consequences of their own decision, then you are going to hate the Qunari way of life.

If you believe that society should be highly organized by the government and every person should perform a function for the benefit of society. If you value order and efficiency over what we typical consider human values like free-will and social mobility. If you believe that emotions and family bonds are basically meaningless and have no problem forcing all these beliefs onto others for their "benefit", then you will love the Qunari society.

Yeah, but the Qunari society isn't as effecient as they're cracked up to be. I mean, if you get absorded into the Qun, you might end up being a janitor...for the rest of your life! You are not assigned to the most "suitable" position based on your ability. You are assigned to a position based on WHAT THEY THINK you're best at. And that's a huge difference for me, really. How do you assess a person's worth? By listening to their understanding of a certain philosophy? By using A series tests? No, nothing works when it comes to that. Humans have tried for centuries, but we've failed. And that's part of the reason why we had the whole enlightment movement and later the communists revolution. Our philosophers (including Karl Marx) explored this aspect of life in great length and had different opinions, but now it seems the ones who support freedom of choice have won...so far:happy:

[VampireSoap]

Mercedes-Benz wrote...

****sm (national socialism) was/is on the far-left of the political spectrum, not on the right, and the only reason that the fascist party was ever formed in Italy is because Mussolini was kicked out of the Italian Socialist Party.

No, there're similarities between the two "socialisms", but they are simply not the same.

I think the following picture is quite accurate in generally describing the relationships of the varies ideologies.

Modifié par VampireSoap, 23 août 2013 - 03:42 .

[Navasha]

Giantdeathrobot wrote...

Common  mistake, and blatantly false. ''socialism'' was a buzzword used by the ****s/Fascists to rally as much people as possible (just like ''national''). ****s had more root in the right side of the spectrum; private enterprise, family values, nationalism, most of their early benefactors were industrialists and they kept that support going for years. The ideology itself made sure it couldn't be placed on the spectrum as it saw itself as a ''third way'', but it sure as hell wasn't anything close to socialism.

As for the Qunari, they're also hard to place since no system quite like them have existed thus far. The closest equivalent is philosophical, as in Plato's Republic. They seem left-leaning in their focus on collective efforts and utter mockery of family values, but then again caste/class systems are anathema to the left. The spectrum wasn't made to accomodate such an ideology, methinks, as it probably couldn't exist IRL.

Well, not blatantly false either really.   The problem is you are trying to define it in a 2 dimensional left vs right mentality.   In reality, fascism was simply BIG government moderates.   They liked capitalism and communism both.   They wanted the kind of control over business and people that the communists had, but they wanted the prosperity and free-will that the capitalists enjoy.   They disliked the idea of a single class like the communists, but also hated the idea of free-markets that allowed people to have control of their own money.  They wanted private property but wanted to be able to force people to use that property for the benefit of the State.      Fascism and ****sm were born out of the Progressive Era,, where people had this idea that they could create a "perfect" society through massive government control and policy.    They just happened to forget and old truth that "power corrupts" and that everyones idea of a "perfect" society is radically different. 

As for the Qunari, they are straight out of the Progressive Era mentality of the late 19th century.   That people should be educated to fit a specific role in society.  That eugenics programs should be made to make people better, smarter and even "specialized" to fit their role in society.   That individualism and free-will was far too chaotic and interfered with their goal of a highly efficient society that utilized resources in the best possible way.    It can work in a fantasy realm because the majority of them aren't human and therefore don't necessarily have the limitation of human behavior that makes this system fail every time.  

[Giantdeathrobot]

Navasha wrote...


Well, not blatantly false either really.   The problem is you are trying to define it in a 2 dimensional left vs right mentality.   In reality, fascism was simply BIG government moderates.   They liked capitalism and communism both.   They wanted the kind of control over business and people that the communists had, but they wanted the prosperity and free-will that the capitalists enjoy.   They disliked the idea of a single class like the communists, but also hated the idea of free-markets that allowed people to have control of their own money.  They wanted private property but wanted to be able to force people to use that property for the benefit of the State.      Fascism and ****sm were born out of the Progressive Era,, where people had this idea that they could create a "perfect" society through massive government control and policy.    They just happened to forget and old truth that "power corrupts" and that everyones idea of a "perfect" society is radically different. 

As for the Qunari, they are straight out of the Progressive Era mentality of the late 19th century.   That people should be educated to fit a specific role in society.  That eugenics programs should be made to make people better, smarter and even "specialized" to fit their role in society.   That individualism and free-will was far too chaotic and interfered with their goal of a highly efficient society that utilized resources in the best possible way.    It can work in a fantasy realm because the majority of them aren't human and therefore don't necessarily have the limitation of human behavior that makes this system fail every time.  

Hence why I said you can't compare fascism to socialism, as some people tend to do (usually because, surprise, they dislike socialism and try to invoke Godwin's Law in a more subtle way). I know they can't be placed on the traditional spectrum, they didn't want to either. But saying that high state authority = socialism/communism is stupid. That's all I meant. Same thing with equating the Quanri with communism because they don't believe in freedom of enterprise, it's simplistic and usually aims at creating a strawman.

Funny, i always thought they used the Republic as a base for the Qunari. Division into three castes, selfless devotion to the greater good, ''philosophers'' being above the castes of warriors and artisans, it fits tremendously, albeit the eugenics parts were from the 19th-early 20th century yeah.

[GodWood]

VampireSoap wrote...
Seriously though, absolute Monarchy as a form of government is traditionally on the "right" of the political spectrum. They're just not on the far right, like the varies fascist regimes in the last century.

The left/right system is wildly inconsistent however is now most commonly attributed to how one approaches economic issues. In the case of the Nazis they are indeed right-wing as they favoured capitalistic elements but not as far-right as modern American conservatives.

That's not the point though. I was merely using your flawed logic by showing some basic similarities between the Nazi regime and the Theirin regime and making the assumption they're the same thing. In the case of the Qunari if we were to label them with real word ideologies I'd say they're a quasi-socialist-'totalitarian' state.

Mercedes-Benz wrote...
****sm (national socialism) was/is on the far-left of the political spectrum, not on the right, and the only reason that the fascist party was ever formed in Italy is because Mussolini was kicked out of the Italian Socialist Party.

Democratic People's Republic of Korea.

Modifié par GodWood, 19 août 2013 - 02:13 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I'm not sure how the Qunari expect to get to Ferelden. They can probably conquer the Imperium, Rivain, Antiva, maybe even the Free Marches if Thedas is weakened by chaos, but Ferelden is so far away that landing an invasion while still holding the entire rest of the continent they'd need to get there seems impossible even for them.

[Jaronking]

I think the qunari would spread themselves to thin if the try to invade other lands if the do they could lose there foothold in Sehron

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Probably, but I think they'll reach pretty far into Thedas before that becomes a problem.

[EmperorSahlertz]

VampireSoap wrote...

Navasha wrote...

It boils down to this really.

If you believe that individuals should be allowed to live their own lives as they see fit, make their own choices for good or for bad and reap the benefits or suffer the consequences of their own decision, then you are going to hate the Qunari way of life.

If you believe that society should be highly organized by the government and every person should perform a function for the benefit of society. If you value order and efficiency over what we typical consider human values like free-will and social mobility. If you believe that emotions and family bonds are basically meaningless and have no problem forcing all these beliefs onto others for their "benefit", then you will love the Qunari society.

Yeah, but the Qunari society isn't as effecient as they're cracked up to be. I mean, if you get absorded into the Qun, you might end up being a janitor...for the rest of your life! 

And there is something wrong with being a janitor? In our understanding perhaps, it could be seen as one of the less lucrative career choices. For a Qunari, the very concept of money is meaningless, they don't have any. If it is about the importance of the job, then the Qunari would also have a very different idea of it than us. Any Qunari, even the Arishok, would lay down his life in defense of the janitor, if the Qun demanded it. And since there is posisitional advancement within the occupation sector of Qunari society, if the janitor really wanted to, and was truly one of the best at his job, he could advance through the ranks, based entirely on merit and skill (instead of money and connections).

[Navasha]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
And there is something wrong with being a janitor? In our understanding perhaps, it could be seen as one of the less lucrative career choices. For a Qunari, the very concept of money is meaningless, they don't have any. If it is about the importance of the job, then the Qunari would also have a very different idea of it than us. Any Qunari, even the Arishok, would lay down his life in defense of the janitor, if the Qun demanded it. And since there is posisitional advancement within the occupation sector of Qunari society, if the janitor really wanted to, and was truly one of the best at his job, he could advance through the ranks, based entirely on merit and skill (instead of money and connections).

A couple points...  
1)  Money is meaningless?   Sten has said they have merchants, traders, and such.   Are they using some primitive barter system when they are carrying around chickens and pigs with them all the time?   Doesn't exactly sound like the efficiency they are generally going for. 

2) Qunari are basically brain-washed.   Being brain-washed into being happy or content at your job is hardly a good thing to most of us.  

3) I don't know where you got this idea that there is advancement in Qunari society.   Maybe a retcon in one of the books.   Sten is a Sten.   Its a military title like captain or major.   He was always a Sten and will ALWAYS be a Sten.   Sten will never become an Arishok.    He has said so himself many times.   He can be the best darn Sten he can be, but he can't change his role nor should he want to as he has been brain washed to believe he is happy and content at being a Sten.    Replay some DA:O and listen to Sten.   According to him, no one can change who they are.   They don't even have names.   Their occupation is their name.    They are nothing but cogs in the machine, molded to perform their function. 

4) No one is saying that Janitors are not a necessary part of a civilized society.   With Qunari, you are placed into your role, you don't get to choose it.   You might have a brilliant skillset in multiple areas but you are a great janitor too and if it is a janitor that is needed at the time, then you are assigned that role.   The rest of your skills are wasted.   Individuals with free-will get to aspire to become what they want to do not just what they might be best at.   Qunari either don't have free-will, or it is purged out of them and brain-washed into contentment within their role. 

Modifié par Navasha, 22 août 2013 - 12:53 .

[Insaner Robot]

I think most of these can be answered with direct quotes from the wiki.

Navasha wrote...
A couple points...  
1)  Money is meaningless?   Sten has said they have merchants, traders, and such.   Are they using some primitive barter system when they are carrying around chickens and pigs with them all the time?   Doesn't exactly sound like the efficiency they are generally going for. 

Dragon Age wiki... 

The Qunari reject private property. They also don't have currency, nor do they engage in direct bartering: they don't buy and sell things amongst one another. "Merchants" in Qunari cities have the job of making sure goods are distributed appropriately.
Efficiency is the primary concern in the economy. The Qunari actively work to improve methods of production via research and borrowing from conquered people and neighboring cultures. On the other hand, demands of the individuals are quite limited, as having "more houses and clothes" would mean more work to maintain them. In the countryside, Qunari houses are identical and arranged along perfectly orthogonal lines.

2) Qunari are basically brain-washed.   Being brain-washed into being happy or content at your job is hardly a good thing to most of us.

  
From the viewpoint of the Qunari Thedas is probably brainwashed into being happy accepting 'choice' over happiness or contentment in their role.

3) I don't know where you got this idea that there is advancement in Qunari society.   Maybe a retcon in one of the books.   Sten is a Sten.   Its a military title like captain or major.   He was always a Sten and will ALWAYS be a Sten.   Sten will never become an Arishok.    He has said so himself many times.   He can be the best darn Sten he can be, but he can't change his role nor should he want to as he has been brain washed to believe he is happy and content at being a Sten.    Replay some DA:O and listen to Sten.   According to him, no one can change who they are.   They don't even have names.   Their occupation is their name.    They are nothing but cogs in the machine, molded to perform their function. 

 

Dragon Age: Those Who Speak.
The new Arishok

4) No one is saying that Janitors are not a necessary part of a civilized society.   With Qunari, you are placed into your role, you don't get to choose it.   You might have a brilliant skillset in multiple areas but you are a great janitor too and if it is a janitor that is needed at the time, then you are assigned that role.   The rest of your skills are wasted.   Individuals with free-will get to aspire to become what they want to do not just what they might be best at.   Qunari either don't have free-will, or it is purged out of them and brain-washed into contentment within their role. 

Dragon Age wiki...

If a Qunari was bred to be a soldier but turns out to be more intellectual, the Tamassrans may move him into the priesthood, researching weapons technology, or the Ben-Hassrath, policing the populace, depending on what roles need to be filled by someone with their specific traits.

What roles need to be filled by someone with their specific traits. Not what is needed, but what they excel most at.

[Angrywolves]

The Qunari are not communists and yes they will invade.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Navasha wrote...
A couple points...  
1)  Money is meaningless?   Sten has said they have merchants, traders, and such.   Are they using some primitive barter system when they are carrying around chickens and pigs with them all the time?   Doesn't exactly sound like the efficiency they are generally going for.  

Qunari have no currency, nor do they have any personal property as we know it. So yes, money is completely and utterly meaningless for the Qunari. And no they don't use a barter system either. Every single member of Qunari society is taken care of and supplied for, by the "merchants".

Navasha wrote...
2) Qunari are basically brain-washed.   Being brain-washed into being happy or content at your job is hardly a good thing to most of us.   

Just like western society is often brainwashed into worshipping liberty and freedom. I don't see the QUnari as any more atrocious at this, than our world. They merely hold the opposite opinion of the spectrum to us. This of course breeds hostility, becasue people cannot understand that point of view, since they have been brought up to abhor it.

Navasha wrote...
3) I don't know where you got this idea that there is advancement in Qunari society.   Maybe a retcon in one of the books.   Sten is a Sten.   Its a military title like captain or major.   He was always a Sten and will ALWAYS be a Sten.   Sten will never become an Arishok.    He has said so himself many times.   He can be the best darn Sten he can be, but he can't change his role nor should he want to as he has been brain washed to believe he is happy and content at being a Sten.    Replay some DA:O and listen to Sten.   According to him, no one can change who they are.   They don't even have names.   Their occupation is their name.    They are nothing but cogs in the machine, molded to perform their function.  

There is advancement within QUnari society. That is not a retcon, but it is further explored in the comics. Sten gave us an extremely limited view into Qunari society, and basing all you know about Qunari off of a few of his sentences does the Qunari a disservice.

Navasha wrote...
4) No one is saying that Janitors are not a necessary part of a civilized society.   With Qunari, you are placed into your role, you don't get to choose it.   You might have a brilliant skillset in multiple areas but you are a great janitor too and if it is a janitor that is needed at the time, then you are assigned that role.   The rest of your skills are wasted.   Individuals with free-will get to aspire to become what they want to do not just what they might be best at.   Qunari either don't have free-will, or it is purged out of them and brain-washed into contentment within their role. 

In our world we don't get to chose our own place in the world either. There is always someone else, somewhere in the world, making those decissions for us. For us it is however more obscure and convuluted. Whereas for the QUnari they are brought up with the certainty of their place, and they, with acceptance of this role, can strive for self-improvement, instead of self-endulgment.
And Qunari not having free will, is compete and utter bull****, born from xenophobia, or a complete misunderstanding of the goals and purpose of the Qunari. The Qunari can all do whatever they want. However, the soldier of the antaam, does not see any purpose in him doing pottery, since he is already a soldier, and he has immersed himself into this role. If this soldier however, proves to actually ahve a far greater talent for pottery than for the work of a soldier, then he will probably be tranfered and undergo reeducation, so as to better make use of his talents.

[VampireSoap]

Wow, hold on guys...The Qunari economy problem is actually quite intriguing...I mean, I know what it says on the wiki, but how's that work exactly? Is it like a fully centralized planned economy? where you get a food ticket or something everyday? I'm interested because varies communist states in the last century have tried that and failed miserably. And if I'm not mistaken, the cubans and north Koreans are still doing that...