190 réponses à ce sujet

[Xiltas]

It's actually quite easy:

The Qunari have their roles in society chosen, and have to be content with them.
The Qunari invade an area, and force the inhabitants to embrace the qun.

In both cases, if the person in question resists, the Qunari make use of their Quamek, which practically destroys the mind of the victim and turn him/her into a soulless being only used for work. Even worse than the fate of a tranquil, because there seems to be no way of recovery, and they can't even think anymore.
Come to think of it, it reminds me of the zombies in voodoo.

[EmperorSahlertz]

VampireSoap wrote...

Wow, hold on guys...The Qunari economy problem is actually quite intriguing...I mean, I know what it says on the wiki, but how's that work exactly? Is it like a fully centralized planned economy? where you get a food ticket or something everyday? I'm interested because varies communist states in the last century have tried that and failed miserably. And if I'm not mistaken, the cubans and north Koreans are still doing that...

There havn't existed a truly communist state yet. Sure a lot of nations have claimed to be communists, but really they weren't.
Whenever this kind of system has been tried implemented, it has failed because the social elite of the nation, has been hoarding the supplies and luxurius goods for themselves, leaving only bare essentials to the commoners. In Qunari society there are no social elite, and every single Qunari is brought up from birth, believing in his duty to the Qunari, thus making him not misuse the system.

[Xilizhra]

So the only possible explanation is the different biology of the kossith race, and the whole system would inevitably collapse if enough humans were added to it, especially in any positions of power. Assuming that the system is exactly what it seems, which I doubt; why leave the qunari without mysteries to untangle?

[Navasha]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

VampireSoap wrote...

Wow, hold on guys...The Qunari economy problem is actually quite intriguing...I mean, I know what it says on the wiki, but how's that work exactly? Is it like a fully centralized planned economy? where you get a food ticket or something everyday? I'm interested because varies communist states in the last century have tried that and failed miserably. And if I'm not mistaken, the cubans and north Koreans are still doing that...

There havn't existed a truly communist state yet. Sure a lot of nations have claimed to be communists, but really they weren't.
Whenever this kind of system has been tried implemented, it has failed because the social elite of the nation, has been hoarding the supplies and luxurius goods for themselves, leaving only bare essentials to the commoners. In Qunari society there are no social elite, and every single Qunari is brought up from birth, believing in his duty to the Qunari, thus making him not misuse the system.

Basically I guess it works like the World State society in the book Brave New World.    That's about as close as you can get to Qunari society, in human terms anyway.     You have to look to fiction to find a 'working' model of such a system, because with humans and human behavior it doesn't work at all in the real world.

[byarru]

I hope so.
I wish I could play as my Warden in DA4 and face Sten aka new Arishok and all these great moral dillemas
Damn, maybe I am mashochist, but I want to see my Warden and Sten fight each other and make choice between friendship and duty

[VampireSoap]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

VampireSoap wrote...

Wow, hold on guys...The Qunari economy problem is actually quite intriguing...I mean, I know what it says on the wiki, but how's that work exactly? Is it like a fully centralized planned economy? where you get a food ticket or something everyday? I'm interested because varies communist states in the last century have tried that and failed miserably. And if I'm not mistaken, the cubans and north Koreans are still doing that...

There havn't existed a truly communist state yet. Sure a lot of nations have claimed to be communists, but really they weren't.
Whenever this kind of system has been tried implemented, it has failed because the social elite of the nation, has been hoarding the supplies and luxurius goods for themselves, leaving only bare essentials to the commoners. In Qunari society there are no social elite, and every single Qunari is brought up from birth, believing in his duty to the Qunari, thus making him not misuse the system.

That actually makes a lot of sense, but that would also imply that the Qunari society is a near "perfect" society, that's still "unrealistic". But then again, they are fictional characters, what do I know? Maybe they are so "perfect" by default

[VampireSoap]

byarru wrote...

I hope so.
I wish I could play as my Warden in DA4 and face Sten aka new Arishok and all these great moral dillemas
Damn, maybe I am mashochist, but I want to see my Warden and Sten fight each other and make choice between friendship and duty

That's simply awesome Assuming that the taint still hasn't claimed the warden until DA4.

[Jaronking]

If the Qunari are communist what are the other countries of thedes

[EmperorSahlertz]

Xilizhra wrote...

So the only possible explanation is the different biology of the kossith race, and the whole system would inevitably collapse if enough humans were added to it, especially in any positions of power. Assuming that the system is exactly what it seems, which I doubt; why leave the qunari without mysteries to untangle?

It isn't human biology that makes us selfish and self-centered. That is a result of our modern society, in which an emphasis on the self is permeates every level of society. Humans are fully capable of living in a society similar or even pefectly like the Qunari. Modern humans aren't.

VampireSoap wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

VampireSoap wrote...

Wow, hold on guys...The Qunari economy problem is actually quite intriguing...I mean, I know what it says on the wiki, but how's that work exactly? Is it like a fully centralized planned economy? where you get a food ticket or something everyday? I'm interested because varies communist states in the last century have tried that and failed miserably. And if I'm not mistaken, the cubans and north Koreans are still doing that...

There havn't existed a truly communist state yet. Sure a lot of nations have claimed to be communists, but really they weren't.
Whenever this kind of system has been tried implemented, it has failed because the social elite of the nation, has been hoarding the supplies and luxurius goods for themselves, leaving only bare essentials to the commoners. In Qunari society there are no social elite, and every single Qunari is brought up from birth, believing in his duty to the Qunari, thus making him not misuse the system.

That actually makes a lot of sense, but that would also imply that the Qunari society is a near "perfect" society, that's still "unrealistic". But then again, they are fictional characters, what do I know? Maybe they are so "perfect" by default [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/lol.png[/smilie]

Oh I have no doubt that there are a few "un-Qunariistic" Qunari who does actually abuse the system, it would be unrealistic to expect otherwise. However, with the amount of oversight and the zeal of the rest of the Qunari, these few miscreants are probably discovered easily, and punished. Selfishness is a great sin in the eyes of the Qunari after all.

Oh and yeah. Of course being fictional is a great help at making ones society work, no matter how bizare it might seem.

Navasha wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

VampireSoap wrote...

Wow, hold on guys...The Qunari economy problem is actually quite intriguing...I mean, I know what it says on the wiki, but how's that work exactly? Is it like a fully centralized planned economy? where you get a food ticket or something everyday? I'm interested because varies communist states in the last century have tried that and failed miserably. And if I'm not mistaken, the cubans and north Koreans are still doing that...

There havn't existed a truly communist state yet. Sure a lot of nations have claimed to be communists, but really they weren't.
Whenever this kind of system has been tried implemented, it has failed because the social elite of the nation, has been hoarding the supplies and luxurius goods for themselves, leaving only bare essentials to the commoners. In Qunari society there are no social elite, and every single Qunari is brought up from birth, believing in his duty to the Qunari, thus making him not misuse the system.

Basically I guess it works like the World State society in the book Brave New World.    That's about as close as you can get to Qunari society, in human terms anyway.     You have to look to fiction to find a 'working' model of such a system, because with humans and human behavior it doesn't work at all in the real world.

No, it probably wouldn't work with the way we think these days. Today selfishness is a trait that is almost cultivated in modern society, so the Qun would have a hard time taking root in our world. That is not to say that it is an impossibility for humans to live in such a society, it merely is for us.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 24 août 2013 - 10:46 .

[Xilizhra]

It isn't human biology that makes us selfish and self-centered. That is a result of our modern society, in which an emphasis on the self is permeates every level of society. Humans are fully capable of living in a society similar or even pefectly like the Qunari. Modern humans aren't.

Oh, give me a break. Are you seriously saying that human selfishness is a modern development? The strong have always exploited the weak when they come to power with some exceptions for those of exceptional morality, it's universal across societies. All that changes is how easy it is. And the weak, quite frequently, lash out at the strong as a response; this is again universal.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Xilizhra wrote...

It isn't human biology that makes us selfish and self-centered. That is a result of our modern society, in which an emphasis on the self is permeates every level of society. Humans are fully capable of living in a society similar or even pefectly like the Qunari. Modern humans aren't.

Oh, give me a break. Are you seriously saying that human selfishness is a modern development? The strong have always exploited the weak when they come to power with some exceptions for those of exceptional morality, it's universal across societies. All that changes is how easy it is. And the weak, quite frequently, lash out at the strong as a response; this is again universal.

Humans lived in communistic tribes at the dawn of time, so there is no reason to believe that humans can't do that again. And if humans are able to live in as socially demanding a society as communism, I see no reason for why they wouldn't be able to live in a Qunari society. Again, there is no biological disposition in humanity towards selfishness.

[Xilizhra]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

It isn't human biology that makes us selfish and self-centered. That is a result of our modern society, in which an emphasis on the self is permeates every level of society. Humans are fully capable of living in a society similar or even pefectly like the Qunari. Modern humans aren't.

Oh, give me a break. Are you seriously saying that human selfishness is a modern development? The strong have always exploited the weak when they come to power with some exceptions for those of exceptional morality, it's universal across societies. All that changes is how easy it is. And the weak, quite frequently, lash out at the strong as a response; this is again universal.

Humans lived in communistic tribes at the dawn of time, so there is no reason to believe that humans can't do that again. And if humans are able to live in as socially demanding a society as communism, I see no reason for why they wouldn't be able to live in a Qunari society. Again, there is no biological disposition in humanity towards selfishness.

Sure, when the tribes were tiny and effectively all family. There's a reason that stopped working after agriculture took off and societies started growing larger; not knowing people personally makes exploitation far easier. Humans can only see about twenty other people at a time as being full people as opposed to just background elements; it's called the monkeysphere.
Additionally, I know of no modern Communist societies that grew out of individualistic democracies; they were either monarchies like Russia or corrupt dictatorships like Cuba and Vietnam. Even in those parts of Asia where communitarianism is a much more highly stressed value than in the West, Communism didn't work without becoming corrupted and decayed itself.

[Vit246]

*facepalm* The OP just HAD to call something Communist without really understanding a single thing about it.....

[Navasha]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Humans lived in communistic tribes at the dawn of time, so there is no reason to believe that humans can't do that again. And if humans are able to live in as socially demanding a society as communism, I see no reason for why they wouldn't be able to live in a Qunari society. Again, there is no biological disposition in humanity towards selfishness.

No they didn't.   Even then there was a chief, a leader, or an elder.   Human society evolved straight out of its biological roots.    Watch any group of gorillas with their silverback as head of the family.  Watch Meerkat Manor and see the familial hierarchy at play among meerkats.   Watch any show about wolf packs and the alpha and beta members.   Every mammal species has a similar history in its evolutionary development.  

Societies can be defined by their motivations.   A small group usually focuses on survival as its primary motivation.  Communsim might have a chance at this level as generally the group needs all of its members just to survive.   A society or civilization generally moves beyond just simple survival and requires a different form of motivation to create productivity among individuals. 

In human societies only 2 real motivations have ever been found to develop a successful system, and they are greed and fear.    Those two motivators correspond directly to how we react biologically.    Its reward and punishment.   Every society has used those in varying amounts of each to motivate its individuals to be productive.   

What motivates the Qunari to be productive?   Faith?   Religions are just another pre-defined set of rewards and punishments for following their rules, so what does the Qun offer as a reward for being a good follower?   What does the Qun demand as punishment for not following?   

[In Exile]

Xilizhra wrote...

So the only possible explanation is the different biology of the kossith race, and the whole system would inevitably collapse if enough humans were added to it, especially in any positions of power. Assuming that the system is exactly what it seems, which I doubt; why leave the qunari without mysteries to untangle?

But the qunari clearly have serious social unrest. They have a perpetual rebellion by a sizeable part of the population. Just because they stick their hands in their ears and go "la-la-la, Tal-Vashoth aren't qunari" doesn't change the fundamental structural problem with their repressive society. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

How do you know it's a sizable part of their population? Also, Par Vollen had a lot of native humans and they are all Qunari now. Most of them were willing converts and Par Vollen is a pretty stable place. Seheron is mostly the place wracked by rebellion.