219 réponses à ce sujet

[AlanC9]

KainD wrote...

jillabender wrote...

...but who are strong characters in the sense of having have strong characterization and writing.

Can you elaborate on this? 

Cersei, maybe?

[David7204]

I would think it would be possible to have a weak and helpless character who is yet very strongly and well-written. Although, having said that, I really can't think of any.

Huh.

You know, maybe not. Thinking it over, I'm considering that weak and helpless characters are fundamentally unappealing. Perhaps a child character? But then again, although children are going to be physically and intellectually weaker than adults, they often provide emotional insight. So I really wouldn't consider such a child 'weak.' And besides, it's not like I have the same standards for adults and childrne in the first place. I don't go around hating children on sight because they're not as capable as I would expect an adult to be.

Modifié par David7204, 12 août 2013 - 09:43 .

[In Exile]

AlanC9 wrote...

KainD wrote...

jillabender wrote...

...but who are strong characters in the sense of having have strong characterization and writing.

Can you elaborate on this? 

Cersei, maybe?

Show or book? I'd agree that Cersei is a strong show character. 

Modifié par In Exile, 12 août 2013 - 09:43 .

[jillabender]

AlanC9 wrote...

KainD wrote...

jillabender wrote...

...but who are strong characters in the sense of having have strong characterization and writing.

Can you elaborate on this? 

Cersei, maybe?

Cersei's actually not a bad example of what I'm talking about - part of what makes her an interesting character is that she could be called strong in the sense of being ruthless and determined, yet she also has weaknesses - she's impulsive and sometimes lets her emotions control her. She's definitely not a character who's solely defined by being "strong," and she's definitely not just a cookie-cutter "strong woman."

I also tend to prefer the Game of Thrones series to the books - I like the books, but I find that in the books there's something a bit lacking in the dialogue. In the series, that sense of "something missing" isn't there - and I think that's mainly because of the terrific performances.

Modifié par jillabender, 12 août 2013 - 09:46 .

[Sylvianus]

Cersei is badass as hell, despite being a woman who can't even hold a sword, with many weaknesses.

Danaerys is also a strong female character for me.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 12 août 2013 - 09:47 .

[crimzontearz]

Uhm

Alcatraz from Crysis 2 is technically weak and helpless, the Nanosuit is the only thing keeping him alive and unless charged constantly it basically becomes a billion dollars form fitting really cool coffin

For that matter so is Lawrence from Crysis 3 at which point he is more suit than human at all

So...dunno, throwing it there, the same concept could be applied to a female character, the fact that without the suit Lawrence/Alcatraz are basically seconds away from brain death does not make them any less strong (especially in the novel)

[Fredward]

I'm confused. Is Morrigan not supposed to have any agency other than that granted by the player? Of course she has plans. If she failed with the OGB she's obviously going to try and get some other kind of leverage. She's really not the type to sit on her hands.

[jillabender]

Sylvianus wrote...

Cersei is badass as hell, despite being a woman who can't even hold a sword, with many weaknesses.

Danaerys is also a strong female character for me.

I agree, Cersei is a great character!

I like Danaerys, too - although personally, I somehow don't find her quite as convincing as some of the other Game of Thrones characters. But that's just me, and I'm not very far into the series yet, so my impression might change by the end.

[Taleroth]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

I'm confused. Is Morrigan not supposed to have any agency other than that granted by the player? Of course she has plans. If she failed with the OGB she's obviously going to try and get some other kind of leverage. She's really not the type to sit on her hands.

It was agency granted by the player and circumstance. The circumstance has passed.

The only guy remaining with any ability to help her is the Architect. But I think their plans might have some cross purpose.

[Eternal Phoenix]

Jesus, brushyourteeth, does The Gaider have to keep confirming that the stupid OGB is *not* cannon? Misleading thread title. I'm sorry but I have to report you to BioWareMod04 and he doesn't believe that ignorance of the crime is an excuse.

[Sylvianus]

jillabender wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

Cersei is badass as hell, despite being a woman who can't even hold a sword, with many weaknesses.

Danaerys is also a strong female character for me.

I agree, Cersei is a great character!

I like Danaerys, too - although personally, I somehow don't find her quite as convincing as some of the other Game of Thrones characters. But that's just me, and I'm not very far into the series yet, so my impression might change by the end.

Actually, I felt exactly like you for Dany at the beginning. ^^

 I thought she was boring, not really convincing like you said. But the more it progressed in the story and the more, the character suprised me, gained substance and strength.

She's to me this kind of character who is not very convincing at first and we tend to underestimate and * paf * she suddenly shows you later that you were wrong about her, she is stronger than you thought.

At any rate, what is sure with Dany is that she has strong opinions. People from what I've seen either love her or hate her. XD

Anyways, I liked your previous posts about female characters and I totally agree with you.

[Mr.House]

Sylvianus wrote...

Cersei is badass as hell, despite being a woman who can't even hold a sword, with many weaknesses.

Danaerys is also a strong female character for me.

Danaerys is a loony toon.

[jillabender]

David7204 wrote...

I would think it would be possible to have a weak and helpless character who is yet very strongly and well-written. Although, having said that, I really can't think of any.

Huh.

You know, maybe not. Thinking it over, I'm considering that weak and helpless characters are fundamentally unappealing. Perhaps a child character? But then again, although children are going to be physically and intellectually weaker than adults, they often provide emotional insight. So I really wouldn't consider such a child 'weak.' And besides, it's not like I have the same standards for adults and childrne in the first place. I don't go around hating children on sight because they're not as capable as I would expect an adult to be.

It's certainly possible for a character to be so spineless and passive that they're no longer interesting, and I agree that a character who existed solely to be weak and helpless, with not much else going on, would probably be very boring - just as a character who exists solely to be "strong" can be boring.

Part of the key to good characterization, I think, is to keep in mind that most people don't behave exactly the same way across situations - we all tend to show our strengths in certain kinds of situations and our weakesses in others.

Modifié par jillabender, 12 août 2013 - 10:15 .

[Fredward]

Taleroth wrote...
 It was agency granted by the player and circumstance. The circumstance has passed.

The only guy remaining with any ability to help her is the Architect. But I think their plans might have some cross purpose.

Yeah but I'm not trying to imply a Rachni-queen situation here. I'm really, really hoping that won't be the case. I'm just saying that there is no way Morrigan won't be doing SOMETHING to recover some of the ground she lost by having the OGB denied her. There must be other paths to power. Gaider and his team are creative cookies I'm sure they can think of something other than "she found a DIFFERENT sperm donor and OG soul conveniently hidden in a cupboard so THERE!"

She messes with the Eluvian regardless yeah? I bet that has some interesting stuff.

[jillabender]

Sylvianus wrote...

jillabender wrote...

I agree, Cersei is a great character!

I like Danaerys, too - although personally, I somehow don't find her quite as convincing as some of the other Game of Thrones characters. But that's just me, and I'm not very far into the series yet, so my impression might change by the end.

Actually, I felt exactly like you for Dany at the beginning. ^^

 I thought she was boring, not really convincing like you said. But the more it progressed in the story and the more, the character suprised me, gained substance and strength.

She's to me this kind of character who is not very convincing at first and we tend to underestimate and * paf * she suddenly shows you later that you were wrong about her, she is stronger than you thought.

At any rate, what is sure with Dany is that she has strong opinions. People from what I've seen either love her or hate her. XD

Anyways, I liked your previous posts about female characters and I totally agree with you.

Thank you! :happy:

Now I'm looking forward to reading more Game of Thrones! I have heard from people that George R.R. Martin takes the characters in some surprising directions, so I'm looking forward to seeing how it unfolds.

Modifié par jillabender, 12 août 2013 - 10:14 .

[DarkKnightHolmes]

I hope that OGB comes to bite people in the ass. I mean really, it was a 'save everyone and no sacrifice' button and so I hope if he does show up then it better be in a bad way since it'll mean making the 'everyone lives' ending in DAO leads to a consequence in the future. Of course, it'll never happen but I can wish!

[Fast Jimmy]

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...

I hope that OGB comes to bite people in the ass. I mean really, it was a 'save everyone and no sacrifice' button and so I hope if he does show up then it better be in a bad way since it'll mean making the 'everyone lives' ending in DAO leads to a consequence in the future. Of course, it'll never happen but I can wish!

I was thinking about this earlier.

Say, for instance, Flemeth is creating a Doomsday device that is powered by the souls of certain people. Let's say that's where the Warden and Hawke disappeared too - their souls were consumed to turn this machine on. If you did the Dark Ritual and the OGB is alive, Flemeth steals him from Morrigan and powers the machine. 

If the OGB was never conceived, then the machine can be deactivated simply by beating the Big Bad alone. However, if the OGB was born and the machine given his power, the machine cannot be turned off without a sacrifice of a similarly heroic/powerful soul - meaning the player has to die to save the world. 


Wouldn't that be ironic? The player doing something to save the Warden's skin winds up resulting in the Inquisitor having to sacrifice themselves. There's a certain dark karma to it all.

[DarkKnightHolmes]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...

I hope that OGB comes to bite people in the ass. I mean really, it was a 'save everyone and no sacrifice' button and so I hope if he does show up then it better be in a bad way since it'll mean making the 'everyone lives' ending in DAO leads to a consequence in the future. Of course, it'll never happen but I can wish!

I was thinking about this earlier.

Say, for instance, Flemeth is creating a Doomsday device that is powered by the souls of certain people. Let's say that's where the Warden and Hawke disappeared too - their souls were consumed to turn this machine on. If you did the Dark Ritual and the OGB is alive, Flemeth steals him from Morrigan and powers the machine. 

If the OGB was never conceived, then the machine can be deactivated simply by beating the Big Bad alone. However, if the OGB was born and the machine given his power, the machine cannot be turned off without a sacrifice of a similarly heroic/powerful soul - meaning the player has to die to save the world. 


Wouldn't that be ironic? The player doing something to save the Warden's skin winds up resulting in the Inquisitor having to sacrifice themselves. There's a certain dark karma to it all.

Hey I'd love that but some people are a bit closer to their PC and companions than me so they'd hate it.

[crimzontearz]

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...

I hope that OGB comes to bite people in the ass. I mean really, it was a 'save everyone and no sacrifice' button and so I hope if he does show up then it better be in a bad way since it'll mean making the 'everyone lives' ending in DAO leads to a consequence in the future. Of course, it'll never happen but I can wish!

if you were in a relationship with Morrigan the it was no different than conceiving a child with your lover and the raising him as a family if you followed her through the Eluvian...so...yeah

[CronoDragoon]

I think this conflation of strong characters with physical strength and/or impressive intelligence is largely a consequence of game settings that tend to feature combat, in which important characters are usually party members and therefore at the very least competent. If we expand beyond this genre into general fiction I think you'll find strong characters who are neither especially smart nor physically competent in abundance.

I think GoT has some good examples (I'd add Arya to the list of those who, despite being neither particularly skilled or smart compared to other characters is nevertheless a strong character. Some can also appreciate Sansa's character despite her understandable passivity.) I can list more, but instead of simply listing characters I'll attempt to define what I conceive to be a strong character:

Simply put, they don't have all their eggs in one basket. They are multi-faceted, have several wishes or desires that may cause internal conflict, but above all do not let others define who they are if they have the opportunity to decide for themselves. One of the criticisms of videogame romances is that they are more of a reward system than a representation of actual romantic processes. The player expects to be "the decider" of the romance, the one who determines just how serious they get, whether or not they stay together, etc. It isn't even a matter of the character arc or a dynamic change in character personality - as arguably happens to Isabela when romanced - but rather that the character isn't given the chance by the writers to develop a fully formed, functional personality, complete with independent goals and wishes. If the romance becomes their one goal and destiny, then they have transformed into a sort of secondary existence.

To bring this back to the original conversation - can valuing romance about all else make a character weak - I said that "it can" and not that "it must". There are instances where a character is willing to sacrifice their life to save their loved one (and I get the feeling that this is the sort of above-all-else romantic moment you had in mind) but this isn't really the same thing as a situation where a character is willing to do evil merely to remain with their loved one. That makes them a type of villain, a fallen hero. Caim in Drakengard 2 comes to mind here.

[Direwolf0294]

I really hope Morrigan is killable in DA:I and we're not just forced to go along with her plans. She's an evil person, and the world would be better off without her.

[Iron Fist]

Direwolf0294 wrote...

I really hope Morrigan is killable in DA:I and we're not just forced to go along with her plans. She's an evil person, and the world would be better off without her.

How is she evil, though?

[filetemo]

Merkit91 wrote...

Official BioWare canon (for those who would not import any saves in DA:I) -
twitter.com/BioMarkDarrah/status/364864515717873665 - Warden is dead, so no Dark Ritual was performed in DA:O.

if you check the responses on that twitter, one is mine asking Darrah about the default canon. He tells me that this canos is for new players to miss as few references from DAO and DA2 as possible.

It does not mean that Bioware "likes" "wants" or "endorses" this canon. It's the best canon for new players

[crimzontearz]

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...

I hope that OGB comes to bite people in the ass. I mean really, it was a 'save everyone and no sacrifice' button and so I hope if he does show up then it better be in a bad way since it'll mean making the 'everyone lives' ending in DAO leads to a consequence in the future. Of course, it'll never happen but I can wish!

I was thinking about this earlier.

Say, for instance, Flemeth is creating a Doomsday device that is powered by the souls of certain people. Let's say that's where the Warden and Hawke disappeared too - their souls were consumed to turn this machine on. If you did the Dark Ritual and the OGB is alive, Flemeth steals him from Morrigan and powers the machine. 

If the OGB was never conceived, then the machine can be deactivated simply by beating the Big Bad alone. However, if the OGB was born and the machine given his power, the machine cannot be turned off without a sacrifice of a similarly heroic/powerful soul - meaning the player has to die to save the world. 


Wouldn't that be ironic? The player doing something to save the Warden's skin winds up resulting in the Inquisitor having to sacrifice themselves. There's a certain dark karma to it all.

Hey I'd love that but some people are a bit closer to their PC and companions than me so they'd hate it.

yes because I totally need another ****ing game that shoves a forced PC death down my throat...


 
Yeah no thanks

[Direwolf0294]

MevenSelas wrote...

Direwolf0294 wrote...

I really hope Morrigan is killable in DA:I and we're not just forced to go along with her plans. She's an evil person, and the world would be better off without her.

How is she evil, though?

Her whole reason for being with you in DA:O was to manipulate you and try and fall pregnant with what was basically the Dragon Age version of the anti christ, and whether you agree to it or not she cowardly abandons you in your hour of need. Like her all you want as a character, but you can't deny she's a bad, bad person.