219 réponses à ce sujet

[Statulos]

I´m curious about Morrigan´s potential reactions. I have several saved characters from DA:O who finished her storyline in Witch Hunt in different ways.
One of those characters tried to kill her, another departed in not very good terms, another said bye in good ones and my very first character, left with her while in romance.

So far we know she´ll be reactive to some (or all) of those option. I´m particularly curious in the last case. After a decade since Origins, chances are that the Warden is very sick and close to The Calling. How Morrigan will handle that? Trying to "cure" the taint? We know Fiona (from The Calling) seems to be free of it and after the events of Awakening, the Architect may have "cured" it too.

And perhaps even more simple elements of the whole plot: did Morrigan trully accept that she was loved and respected by the Warden and acknowledge it?

[reeferdemon]

Direwolf0294 wrote...

MevenSelas wrote...

Direwolf0294 wrote...

I really hope Morrigan is killable in DA:I and we're not just forced to go along with her plans. She's an evil person, and the world would be better off without her.

How is she evil, though?

Her whole reason for being with you in DA:O was to manipulate you and try and fall pregnant with what was basically the Dragon Age version of the anti christ, and whether you agree to it or not she cowardly abandons you in your hour of need. Like her all you want as a character, but you can't deny she's a bad, bad person.

You say that without knowing her intentions with the OGB. And how is it the Dragon Age anti-christ? You're only assuming.

[crimzontearz]

It will likely, somehow, be retconned so it will make little difference.

[Iron Fist]

Direwolf0294 wrote...

MevenSelas wrote...

Direwolf0294 wrote...

I really hope Morrigan is killable in DA:I and we're not just forced to go along with her plans. She's an evil person, and the world would be better off without her.

How is she evil, though?

Her whole reason for being with you in DA:O was to manipulate you and try and fall pregnant with what was basically the Dragon Age version of the anti christ, and whether you agree to it or not she cowardly abandons you in your hour of need. Like her all you want as a character, but you can't deny she's a bad, bad person.

1. You can do the dark ritual without romancing her.
2. If you did romance her, she shows remorse.
3. The dark ritual saves someone else from death.
4. We don't know her true motives at this time.
5. We also don't know the nature of the child. It cannot be corrupted by the darkspawn.

She's not evil. She's just the product of very unfortunate circumstances, including isolation from other humans for so long.

Modifié par MevenSelas, 12 août 2013 - 11:36 .

[jillabender]

Cronodragoon wrote...

I think this conflation of strong characters with physical strength and/or impressive intelligence is largely a consequence of game settings that tend to feature combat, in which important characters are usually party members and therefore at the very least competent. If we expand beyond this genre into general fiction I think you'll find strong characters who are neither especially smart nor physically competent in abundance.

I think GoT has some good examples (I'd add Arya to the list of those who, despite being neither particularly skilled or smart compared to other characters is nevertheless a strong character. Some can also appreciate Sansa's character despite her understandable passivity.)

I agree about Sansa - she's interesting because she's so human and believable, and because she's passive in a way that feels true-to-life in the situation she's in.

I also agree that there are many examples of interesting characters who aren't especially physically or mentally competent across fiction. What I was taking issue with earlier is that I often find that female characters get praised for being "strong" and "independent" characters when, from my point of view, they're not terribly interesting characters because they don't really have many distinguishing character traits beyond simply being "strong." I do think you're right that it's a problem mainly in genre fiction.

That's not to say that simplistic badass heroines are necessarily bad, because they can sometimes be fun - I just find that they get tiresome after a while.

Modifié par jillabender, 12 août 2013 - 11:39 .

[DarkKnightHolmes]

I wouldn't call Morrigan evil. She's just extremely pessimistic and can be very selfish at times.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Direwolf0294 wrote...

Her whole reason for being with you in DA:O was to manipulate you and try and fall pregnant with what was basically the Dragon Age version of the anti christ, and whether you agree to it or not she cowardly abandons you in your hour of need. Like her all you want as a character, but you can't deny she's a bad, bad person.

I cannot, in good conscience, criticise anyone merely for being selfish.

[mannitt]

Direwolf0294 wrote...

MevenSelas wrote...

Direwolf0294 wrote...

I really hope Morrigan is killable in DA:I and we're not just forced to go along with her plans. She's an evil person, and the world would be better off without her.

How is she evil, though?

Her whole reason for being with you in DA:O was to manipulate you and try and fall pregnant with what was basically the Dragon Age version of the anti christ, and whether you agree to it or not she cowardly abandons you in your hour of need. Like her all you want as a character, but you can't deny she's a bad, bad person.

Her purpose was originally Flemeth's purpose. Morrigan is a victim of her upbringing. That doesn't mean she isn't capable of evil things, but that doesn't make her wholly evil. Now that can change based on certain ways of playing. Like, not romancing or not even being friendly at all. Morrigan's character changes vastly through out that game. Again, based on the way you interact with her. Even if in the end she decides to still do whatever it is she is planning. I think she just as evil as anyone would be, being raised by an abomination/demon/whatever else Flemeth may or may not be. Also when finding out that all you were was Flemeth's next skin suit.

[Neon Rising Winter]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Direwolf0294 wrote...

Her whole reason for being with you in DA:O was to manipulate you and try and fall pregnant with what was basically the Dragon Age version of the anti christ, and whether you agree to it or not she cowardly abandons you in your hour of need. Like her all you want as a character, but you can't deny she's a bad, bad person.

I cannot, in good conscience, criticise anyone merely for being selfish.

Anyway, that's not being selfish, that's being strongly objective oriented. If only more people had the astuteness to abandon non productive solutions when it becomes apparent they have failed.

[Fast Jimmy]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Direwolf0294 wrote...

Her whole reason for being with you in DA:O was to manipulate you and try and fall pregnant with what was basically the Dragon Age version of the anti christ, and whether you agree to it or not she cowardly abandons you in your hour of need. Like her all you want as a character, but you can't deny she's a bad, bad person.

I cannot, in good conscience, criticise anyone merely for being selfish.

Not to mention the fact that she stays with you until the Archdemon is slain if you do the Ritual. The after party is hardly your "hour of need."

[Iron Fist]

I have a theory now.

Let's say that the player did NOT do the dark ritual. What if Morrigan, in this hypothetical world state, found the sixth or seventh old god (now an archdemon) and managed to woo a grey warden into the dark ritual this time. The Awakening epilogue will sometimes make reference to another Blight in the Anderfels.

Either the old god child has a personal connection to OUR warden (or Alistair/Secret Companion) or is simply the child of an unnamed Warden from the SIXTH blight in the Anderfels. I'm not sure what role the child would play if it were going to appear in the game. Maybe I'm reaching, but it would make sense.

[reeferdemon]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Direwolf0294 wrote...

Her whole reason for being with you in DA:O was to manipulate you and try and fall pregnant with what was basically the Dragon Age version of the anti christ, and whether you agree to it or not she cowardly abandons you in your hour of need. Like her all you want as a character, but you can't deny she's a bad, bad person.

I cannot, in good conscience, criticise anyone merely for being selfish.

Not to mention the fact that she stays with you until the Archdemon is slain if you do the Ritual. The after party is hardly your "hour of need."

Exactly. An evil person would have left as soon as she'd gotten what she wanted. She showed loyalty to the Warden, be it as a friend or lover.

[Fast Jimmy]

MevenSelas wrote...

I have a theory now.

Let's say that the player did NOT do the dark ritual. What if Morrigan, in this hypothetical world state, found the sixth or seventh old god (now an archdemon) and managed to woo a grey warden into the dark ritual this time. The Awakening epilogue will sometimes make reference to another Blight in the Anderfels.

Either the old god child has a personal connection to OUR warden (or Alistair/Secret Companion) or is simply the child of an unnamed Warden from the SIXTH blight in the Anderfels. I'm not sure what role the child would play if it were going to appear in the game. Maybe I'm reaching, but it would make sense.

Gaider said that if you didn't do the Ritual, there is no OGB. He said there was no loophole or way around it - the decision you made is the decision you made.

I'll be interested to see how they pull it off without angering pretty much everyone who can express an opinion, but that portion of the situation - that there is no OGB loophole if you didn't make that choice - has been made pretty clear.

[xnode]

Evil in defined is... wicked,bad,vicious,sinister...

Is Morrigan any of these? I do beleive so, many times in the camp fire of DA:O she explains her up-bringing and how people seem all beneath them. How she would think sinister thoughts about some and even at a point stoled a mirror because it was pretty and she wanted to be like the girl with the golden hair.

Does any of that make her evil? No, but her intentions of the future I beleive do. To kill off her mother to save herself and you have to "take her word for it" is pretty wicked and sinister. To disagree with the PC when in party on helping others in time of need is " a waste of time  " due to "More important things" for many would be wicked. While some can argue "she has a point" I would argue the point is to save as many as you can while others will say saving a few doesn't save the many. (think star trek referance there haha!) 

In any case, near the end when she ask's to give her a child it wasn't out of love to save the PC, it was "and I will get.." objective. Using a crises for a means to her own ends , that's pretty bad.

So yeah, in the end this women is pretty dam evil , it might be her up bringing or not, but she makes it darn clear that the strong survive and she wants to be very powerful and screw the conseqances. Hmm sounds like many plots in many stories to me. We also learn many times over now that the mirror she uses in the DLC is not a "good thing" to have or use, yet again "dam the consiquances" is her motto to get what she wants. Yeah, a good person? I think not.

Modifié par xnode, 13 août 2013 - 12:32 .

[Dirgegun]

xnode wrote...

Evil in defined is... wicked,bad,vicious,sinister...

Is Morrigan any of these? I do beleive so, many times in the camp fire of DA:O she explains her up-bringing and how people seem all beneath them. How she would think sinister thoughts about some and even at a point stoled a mirror because it was pretty and she wanted to be like the girl with the golden hair.

Does any of that make her evil? No, but her intentions of the future I beleive do. To kill off her mother to save herself and you have to "take her word for it" is pretty wicked and sinister. To disagree with the PC when in party on helping others in time of need is " a waste of time  " due to "More important things" for many would be wicked. While some can argue "she has a point" I would argue the point is to save as many as you can while others will say saving a few doesn't save the many. (think star trek referance there haha!) 

In any case, near the end when she ask's to give her a child it wasn't out of love to save the PC, it was "and I will get.." objective. Using a crises for a means to her own ends , that's pretty bad.

So yeah, in the end this women is pretty dam evil , it might be her up bringing or not, but she makes it darn clear that the strong survive and she wants to be very powerful and screw the conseqances. Hmm sounds like many plots in many stories to me. We also learn many times over now that the mirror she uses in the DLC is not a "good thing" to have or use, yet again "dam the consiquances" is her motto to get what she wants. Yeah, a good person? I think not.

The problem is we have no idea what she wants because we don't know what her plans are, but if you want to ignore that and blanket her as "the evul b!tch," go right ahead, I suppose? More power to you? 

It's kind of like we have no idea what Flemeth is up to, so just dismissing her as 'crazy evulz abomination lady' isn't really fair, either. It's obvious Flemeth, and possibly Morrigan, know that something is going down behind the scenes and that's what they're looking into... whether or not that's good or bad at this point, we don't have the information to judge.

[brushyourteeth]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

I'm confused. Is Morrigan not supposed to have any agency other than that granted by the player? Of course she has plans. If she failed with the OGB she's obviously going to try and get some other kind of leverage. She's really not the type to sit on her hands.

Agree completely. "But mah choices!!!" seems to be the battle cry of many DA gamers, as if we ever had the power to completely control NPC's life choices (especially ones as headstrong and powerful as Morrigan).

Elton John is dead wrote...

Jesus, brushyourteeth, does The Gaider have to keep confirming that the stupid OGB is *not* cannon? Misleading thread title. I'm sorry but I have to report you to BioWareMod04 and he doesn't believe that ignorance of the crime is an excuse.

Hey, you read that article and tell me what I was supposed to think -- especially in the wake of "race options won't be returning OHH NO WAIT YES THEY ARE!" (which I am super pumped about, seriously.)

I'm sure even BioWareMod04 would understand under the circumstances. 


I'm personally a bit disappointed at the thought that Morrigan could have gone "Aw, shucks, you won't let me do this ritual? Dang..." and sulked off into the night. My understanding of Morrigan is that she was going to get what she wanted with or without your help and approval. If anything, this was the easiest path to the OGB and possibly a way to save a friend.

But hey, D-Gaids is the boss.

[Wulfram]

MevenSelas wrote...

How is she evil, though?

She approves of murdering a bunch of elves for a bit of power.

[Iron Fist]

Wulfram wrote...

MevenSelas wrote...

How is she evil, though?

She approves of murdering a bunch of elves for a bit of power.

Fair enough, but we were fighting a Blight. So yeah.

I played a Dalish rogue during one playthrough, left her at the camp during Nature of the Beast. So it's like she never endorsed that course of action.

[wolfhowwl]

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...

I hope that OGB comes to bite people in the ass. I mean really, it was a 'save everyone and no sacrifice' button and so I hope if he does show up then it better be in a bad way since it'll mean making the 'everyone lives' ending in DAO leads to a consequence in the future. Of course, it'll never happen but I can wish!

It would be disappointing if dark ritual had no negative consequences or (yuck) just positive outcomes from it.

But if bioware made the dark ritual backfire on the player that would mean that players who trusted the obviously untrustworthy witch who refuses to tell you her plans were wrong.

People hate being told that they were wrong, and judging from some of the asspulls in Bio's last game they really want to avoid telling players that.

The uproar on the forums from people outraged that Morrigan lived down to her character would be amusing though.

Modifié par wolfhowwl, 13 août 2013 - 02:22 .

[mannitt]

I still don't think Morrigan is "evil" in the sense that most people are using it. Yes she supports some horrendous things. But I still think that based on her lack of human interaction during her upbringing is key to her morality. Also she changes in game based on interactions. You can literally alter some of her core beliefs. Granted, as far as you know. At the same time I still think that her being evil or not, is one of the things that you affect. It's kind of like the light and dark side of the force. Star Wars has always been that story of strict good and evil, right and wrong. Even in that story, in that world of black and white. Darth Vader still redeems himself in the end.
So with that example I am trying to say that Morrigan is able to be redeemed, at least partially, from her evil "witch of the wilds" ways. Also to say though, we still don't know the whole story. I can completely be proved wrong and maybe it was all an act. That in the end all she wanted was power and she used her wily charms to get that.
I don't believe that though. Morrigan may be a lot of things. But she is very blunt and I think it would be harder for her to fake a certain belief than actually change.

[crimzontearz]

wolfhowwl wrote...

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...

I hope that OGB comes to bite people in the ass. I mean really, it was a 'save everyone and no sacrifice' button and so I hope if he does show up then it better be in a bad way since it'll mean making the 'everyone lives' ending in DAO leads to a consequence in the future. Of course, it'll never happen but I can wish!

It would be disappointing if dark ritual had no negative consequences or (yuck) just positive outcomes from it.

But if bioware made the dark ritual backfire on the player that would mean that players who trusted the obviously untrustworthy witch who refuses to tell you her plans were wrong.

People hate being told that they were wrong, and judging from some of the asspulls in Bio's last game they really want to avoid telling players that.

The uproar on the forums from people outraged that Morrigan lived down to her character would be amusing though.

which ass pulls exactly?

[mannitt]

I do think and actually hope that there is a negative consequence for the dark ritual. Story and world wise that make so much sense. I may say that Morrigan isn't evil. I can't however argue that the ritual itself was not questionable.

[Taleroth]

Negative outcomes of choices is a dumb idea. Especially when it's in contrast to the other options. It denies agency and makes an implicit judgement on the player's style.

Choices should simply have different outcomes. Equal outcomes that are different in ways that respect why the choices were made. Sometimes this can lead to complex situations, temporary negative outcomes, but that should be the case for all outcomes of an event. With the player given the opportunity to turn that around towards the positive outcome.

Respect a player's agency. Do not judge their choices. If you judge their choices, then you insult the player. If you take away their agency, you might as well not give them a choice.

Modifié par Taleroth, 13 août 2013 - 02:48 .