115 réponses à ce sujet

[NuclearTech76]

Dunvi wrote...

Element 0 wrote...

Dunvi wrote...

Okay.

So most of the non-shotgun non-projectile (read: normal) weapons in the game are true hitscan. When the game registers a "fire" action, it immediately extrapolates the impact location, and then calls the appropriate bullet impact functionality at that location. Cool. Fun.

Shotguns are weird. Instead of doing the impact logic immediately and inline, it has it all factored out into a separate function. Where it would be in the other weapons, shotguns save your current aim values, and then set a timer, for a future time of the maximum of 0.001, and LatentFireDelay/#pellets.

Why it does this? We're not entirely sure. Seems to me that they're trying to simulate a slower projectile speed without using actual projectiles. But for all I know, maybe it's actually an optimization by introducing asynchronicity. I don't know, I was drunk last night, I didn't look quite closely enough to see if there was a reason for it. The important part is that value, LatentFireDelay. It's defined in the base shotgun class as 0.1.

At 60 fps with 8 pellets, 0.1/8 is still less than a single frame. At 30 fps, it's not even half a frame. And besides, since the pellets spread, the effects of the firing delay is mitigated obvious.

With the Crusader, they forgot about this weird, pellet-count based math. So you don't get your shot until at least 0.1 seconds later.

 

And that's why the Crusader is more popular on consoles. Because the delay is smaller. 

The delay is not smaller, unless there's a platform dependent difference in the code that I can't see (It's possible, but unlikely). The delay is less perceptable, though, since you're looking at 3-4 frames, and slower overall play (less precision in enemy movements and aim-assist friction).

IDK about delay being smaller but it's still a PITA to hit with unless using sabotage or another stunning power. I can hipfire it fairly well but if I sight in I never hit crap with it unless it's bigger than a Volkswagon.

[Saints]

Nuc pls.

L2quickshotnoscopez.

[Dunvi]

NuclearTech76 wrote...

Dunvi wrote...

Element 0 wrote...

Dunvi wrote...

Okay.

So most of the non-shotgun non-projectile (read: normal) weapons in the game are true hitscan. When the game registers a "fire" action, it immediately extrapolates the impact location, and then calls the appropriate bullet impact functionality at that location. Cool. Fun.

Shotguns are weird. Instead of doing the impact logic immediately and inline, it has it all factored out into a separate function. Where it would be in the other weapons, shotguns save your current aim values, and then set a timer, for a future time of the maximum of 0.001, and LatentFireDelay/#pellets.

Why it does this? We're not entirely sure. Seems to me that they're trying to simulate a slower projectile speed without using actual projectiles. But for all I know, maybe it's actually an optimization by introducing asynchronicity. I don't know, I was drunk last night, I didn't look quite closely enough to see if there was a reason for it. The important part is that value, LatentFireDelay. It's defined in the base shotgun class as 0.1.

At 60 fps with 8 pellets, 0.1/8 is still less than a single frame. At 30 fps, it's not even half a frame. And besides, since the pellets spread, the effects of the firing delay is mitigated obvious.

With the Crusader, they forgot about this weird, pellet-count based math. So you don't get your shot until at least 0.1 seconds later.

 

And that's why the Crusader is more popular on consoles. Because the delay is smaller. 

The delay is not smaller, unless there's a platform dependent difference in the code that I can't see (It's possible, but unlikely). The delay is less perceptable, though, since you're looking at 3-4 frames, and slower overall play (less precision in enemy movements and aim-assist friction).

IDK about delay being smaller but it's still a PITA to hit with unless using sabotage or another stunning power. I can hipfire it fairly well but if I sight in I never hit crap with it unless it's bigger than a Volkswagon.

Exactly. The consoles in general rely on stagger/stun powers anyway, in order to manage their slower and less precise controller. PC players in general place a higher value on twitch aiming.

[lightswitch]

PyroByte wrote...

Saints944 wrote...

Implies that it's a bad gun in the first place? It's a nice gun.

Claymore, Raider out perform it damage wise. It suffers from shieldgate but can't stagger like other projectile shotguns (Graal, GPS) and it's way to heavy to use on anything but gun classes (who are better off with claymore or raider).

I don't see the point of it or how it is anything else than a mediocre shotgun.

Uhh perfect accuracy at any range, excellent sustained DPS, high base damage per shot.

Without the glitch it would be an instant contender for best weapon in the game.

[Tybo]

Dunvi wrote...

Okay.

So most of the non-shotgun non-projectile (read: normal) weapons in the game are true hitscan. When the game registers a "fire" action, it immediately extrapolates the impact location, and then calls the appropriate bullet impact functionality at that location. Cool. Fun.

Shotguns are weird. Instead of doing the impact logic immediately and inline, it has it all factored out into a separate function. Where it would be in the other weapons, shotguns save your current aim values, and then set a timer, for a future time of the maximum of 0.001, and LatentFireDelay/#pellets.

Why it does this? We're not entirely sure. Seems to me that they're trying to simulate a slower projectile speed without using actual projectiles. But for all I know, maybe it's actually an optimization by introducing asynchronicity. I don't know, I was drunk last night, I didn't look quite closely enough to see if there was a reason for it. The important part is that value, LatentFireDelay. It's defined in the base shotgun class as 0.1.

At 60 fps with 8 pellets, 0.1/8 is still less than a single frame. At 30 fps, it's not even half a frame. And besides, since the pellets spread, the effects of the firing delay is mitigated obvious.

With the Crusader, they forgot about this weird, pellet-count based math. So you don't get your shot until at least 0.1 seconds later.

Cool stuff, thanks.  Seems like a good explanation to me.

Now for the million dollar question:  Can you fix it?

[Dunvi]

tyhw wrote...

Dunvi wrote...

Okay.

So most of the non-shotgun non-projectile (read: normal) weapons in the game are true hitscan. When the game registers a "fire" action, it immediately extrapolates the impact location, and then calls the appropriate bullet impact functionality at that location. Cool. Fun.

Shotguns are weird. Instead of doing the impact logic immediately and inline, it has it all factored out into a separate function. Where it would be in the other weapons, shotguns save your current aim values, and then set a timer, for a future time of the maximum of 0.001, and LatentFireDelay/#pellets.

Why it does this? We're not entirely sure. Seems to me that they're trying to simulate a slower projectile speed without using actual projectiles. But for all I know, maybe it's actually an optimization by introducing asynchronicity. I don't know, I was drunk last night, I didn't look quite closely enough to see if there was a reason for it. The important part is that value, LatentFireDelay. It's defined in the base shotgun class as 0.1.

At 60 fps with 8 pellets, 0.1/8 is still less than a single frame. At 30 fps, it's not even half a frame. And besides, since the pellets spread, the effects of the firing delay is mitigated obvious.

With the Crusader, they forgot about this weird, pellet-count based math. So you don't get your shot until at least 0.1 seconds later.

Cool stuff, thanks.  Seems like a good explanation to me.

Now for the million dollar question:  Can you fix it?

Unfortunately, LatentFireDelay is not marked config, so we can't add it to the Coalesced file. The way we see it, we have a few options: 

1) add the config keyword and give Crusader its own LatentFireDelay value in the Coalesced
2) give Crusader its own LatentFireDelay in the internal defaultproperties
3) hardcode a logic check for single-pellet shotguns in the base class and force a shorter delay
4) override the logic in the Crusader's class and force a shorter delay

In all cases, the potential fix is just making that weird-ass check give you something closer to 0.01 seconds, just a couple different ways and places we can do this.

Of course, we might not be completely correct about the bug, and this might not fix anything. But it is awfully suspicious...

ETA:: in all cases, we're looking at a PCC recompilation.

Modifié par Dunvi, 13 août 2013 - 07:01 .

[capn233]

Belahzur wrote...

Can't speak for single player, never bought the weapon packs, but I assume it behaves the same way. Just change recoil to 0.45 and 0.0 for the rest and it should fix it.

The SP Harrier was identical to the MP one.

There isn't anything to "fix" with the Harrier stats I posted, unless you think it should recoil more in cover.

I mentioned that I did not think swapping recoil values for the Harrier actually worked, and also that the values in that thread weren't ideal because I already tested a bunch of Harrier configurations already.

[Tybo]

lightswitch wrote...

PyroByte wrote...

Saints944 wrote...

Implies that it's a bad gun in the first place? It's a nice gun.

Claymore, Raider out perform it damage wise. It suffers from shieldgate but can't stagger like other projectile shotguns (Graal, GPS) and it's way to heavy to use on anything but gun classes (who are better off with claymore or raider).

I don't see the point of it or how it is anything else than a mediocre shotgun.

Uhh perfect accuracy at any range, excellent sustained DPS, high base damage per shot.

Without the glitch it would be an instant contender for best weapon in the game.

Not really, imo.

The Crusader is kinda in a funny spot damage wise, where even all amped up on a GI with Phasic rounds it can't one shot headshot any shielded mooks except for the nemesis.  2 shots to kill any enemy isn't that great, especially with a small 4 shot clip and no way of extending it.

It would only really be good on characters with overload/energy drain, and even there I would say that its pretty fair given its weight.

[NuclearTech76]

Dunvi wrote...


Exactly. The consoles in general rely on stagger/stun powers anyway, in order to manage their slower and less precise controller. PC players in general place a higher value on twitch aiming.

Aim assist helps with this to some degree on console but on this weapon it actually trolls people hard. If you ADS then snap to target and immediately fire, you will always miss. Ironically my accuracy goes up after heavy drinking so the delay in firing after fine adjustment might work. TLDR version is the Crusader is the weapon for drunks.

[capn233]

tyhw wrote...

Not really, imo.

The Crusader is kinda in a funny spot damage wise, where even all amped up on a GI with Phasic rounds it can't one shot headshot any shielded mooks except for the nemesis.  2 shots to kill any enemy isn't that great, especially with a small 4 shot clip and no way of extending it.

It would only really be good on characters with overload/energy drain, and even there I would say that its pretty fair given its weight.

^^This

[Dunvi]

NuclearTech76 wrote...

Dunvi wrote...


Exactly. The consoles in general rely on stagger/stun powers anyway, in order to manage their slower and less precise controller. PC players in general place a higher value on twitch aiming.

Aim assist helps with this to some degree on console but on this weapon it actually trolls people hard. If you ADS then snap to target and immediately fire, you will always miss. Ironically my accuracy goes up after heavy drinking so the delay in firing after fine adjustment might work. TLDR version is the Crusader is the weapon for drunks.

It very much is. Slower reactions and less precision.

I'm surprised no one's given me the whole "humans can't register 0.1 seconds difference anyway!" schtick. I have a whole argument to beat them up with waiting in the wings.

[capn233]

The record for human reaction time is 0.01s.

[Ledgend1221]

Dunvi wrote...

NuclearTech76 wrote...

Dunvi wrote...


Exactly. The consoles in general rely on stagger/stun powers anyway, in order to manage their slower and less precise controller. PC players in general place a higher value on twitch aiming.

Aim assist helps with this to some degree on console but on this weapon it actually trolls people hard. If you ADS then snap to target and immediately fire, you will always miss. Ironically my accuracy goes up after heavy drinking so the delay in firing after fine adjustment might work. TLDR version is the Crusader is the weapon for drunks.

It very much is. Slower reactions and less precision.

I'm surprised no one's given me the whole "humans can't register 0.1 seconds difference anyway!" schtick. I have a whole argument to beat them up with waiting in the wings.

humans can't register 0.1 seconds difference anyway.

Go.

[Tybo]

Dunvi wrote...

NuclearTech76 wrote...

Dunvi wrote...


Exactly. The consoles in general rely on stagger/stun powers anyway, in order to manage their slower and less precise controller. PC players in general place a higher value on twitch aiming.

Aim assist helps with this to some degree on console but on this weapon it actually trolls people hard. If you ADS then snap to target and immediately fire, you will always miss. Ironically my accuracy goes up after heavy drinking so the delay in firing after fine adjustment might work. TLDR version is the Crusader is the weapon for drunks.

It very much is. Slower reactions and less precision.

I'm surprised no one's given me the whole "humans can't register 0.1 seconds difference anyway!" schtick. I have a whole argument to beat them up with waiting in the wings.

Does it have something to do with the difference between reaction and prediction?

[Tybo]

Dunvi wrote...

tyhw wrote...

Dunvi wrote...

Okay.

So most of the non-shotgun non-projectile (read: normal) weapons in the game are true hitscan. When the game registers a "fire" action, it immediately extrapolates the impact location, and then calls the appropriate bullet impact functionality at that location. Cool. Fun.

Shotguns are weird. Instead of doing the impact logic immediately and inline, it has it all factored out into a separate function. Where it would be in the other weapons, shotguns save your current aim values, and then set a timer, for a future time of the maximum of 0.001, and LatentFireDelay/#pellets.

Why it does this? We're not entirely sure. Seems to me that they're trying to simulate a slower projectile speed without using actual projectiles. But for all I know, maybe it's actually an optimization by introducing asynchronicity. I don't know, I was drunk last night, I didn't look quite closely enough to see if there was a reason for it. The important part is that value, LatentFireDelay. It's defined in the base shotgun class as 0.1.

At 60 fps with 8 pellets, 0.1/8 is still less than a single frame. At 30 fps, it's not even half a frame. And besides, since the pellets spread, the effects of the firing delay is mitigated obvious.

With the Crusader, they forgot about this weird, pellet-count based math. So you don't get your shot until at least 0.1 seconds later.

Cool stuff, thanks.  Seems like a good explanation to me.

Now for the million dollar question:  Can you fix it?

Unfortunately, LatentFireDelay is not marked config, so we can't add it to the Coalesced file. The way we see it, we have a few options: 

1) add the config keyword and give Crusader its own LatentFireDelay value in the Coalesced
2) give Crusader its own LatentFireDelay in the internal defaultproperties
3) hardcode a logic check for single-pellet shotguns in the base class and force a shorter delay
4) override the logic in the Crusader's class and force a shorter delay

In all cases, the potential fix is just making that weird-ass check give you something closer to 0.01 seconds, just a couple different ways and places we can do this.

Of course, we might not be completely correct about the bug, and this might not fix anything. But it is awfully suspicious...

ETA:: in all cases, we're looking at a PCC recompilation.

...That's more or less what I figured...And I don't know how to mess with that stuff.  Would be cool if it was possible and reasonably easy to do though.

[PyroByte]

tyhw wrote...

lightswitch wrote...

PyroByte wrote...

Saints944 wrote...

Implies that it's a bad gun in the first place? It's a nice gun.

Claymore, Raider out perform it damage wise. It suffers from shieldgate but can't stagger like other projectile shotguns (Graal, GPS) and it's way to heavy to use on anything but gun classes (who are better off with claymore or raider).

I don't see the point of it or how it is anything else than a mediocre shotgun.

Uhh perfect accuracy at any range, excellent sustained DPS, high base damage per shot.

Without the glitch it would be an instant contender for best weapon in the game.

Not really, imo.

The Crusader is kinda in a funny spot damage wise, where even all amped up on a GI with Phasic rounds it can't one shot headshot any shielded mooks except for the nemesis.  2 shots to kill any enemy isn't that great, especially with a small 4 shot clip and no way of extending it.

It would only really be good on characters with overload/energy drain, and even there I would say that its pretty fair given its weight.

Agreed and quoting this because I was about to write something similar as response.

It may be a nice gun but nothing special. And perfect accuracy at any range isn't something I want from a shotgun.

[Dunvi]

Yes. The 0.1 threshold is based on sensory stimulation, so it includes the time it takes for the signal to even travel to your brain and then out to your reaction. In comparison, when you become very good at things, or there are patterns to adjust to, you can both predict a more precise onset of stimulation, and then anticipate your reaction to have it release at an incredibly fine-grained level of precision.

As a musician, this usually comes up in that a really good drummer or conductor or what have you can detect as little as a 0.01 or less second timing offset, and you know the delay of your actions such that you can stay in rhythm. Most humans can detect offsets between faces and speech (such as missynced videos) in that range too, since we put so much emphasis on communication.

In context of a video game, you are predicting your own reactions at a very fine level of precision, and then get really confused when your predicted times are an order of magnitude too small.

[Dunvi]

also,

@ty poke caratinoid if you're interested
@lightswitch it's not actually dead precise, it has aim error values.

[d_nought]

lightswitch wrote...

PyroByte wrote...

Saints944 wrote...

Implies that it's a bad gun in the first place? It's a nice gun.

Claymore, Raider out perform it damage wise. It suffers from shieldgate but can't stagger like other projectile shotguns (Graal, GPS) and it's way to heavy to use on anything but gun classes (who are better off with claymore or raider).

I don't see the point of it or how it is anything else than a mediocre shotgun.

Uhh perfect accuracy at any range, excellent sustained DPS, high base damage per shot.

Without the glitch it would be an instant contender for best weapon in the game.

Arc Pistol
Black Widow
Wraith

[Cassandra Saturn]

from point of view, a human reaction pales in comparison to superhuman's. the superhuman reaction would be faster than 0001, it would take about 95 seconds faster than average human reaction.

[Dunvi]

Cassandra Saturn wrote...

from point of view, a human reaction pales in comparison to superhuman's. the superhuman reaction would be faster than 0001, it would take about 95 seconds faster than average human reaction.

...................................i

what

so confused

[Dr. Tim Whatley]

Lol