406 réponses à ce sujet

[esper]

Toasted Llama wrote...

esper wrote...

I don't want my characters back because they mean a lot to me.

The best emotion they could conjure up in my was indifference, because the characters claiming to be Hawke and the Hero of Fereldan so obviously is not (At least not the ones belong in the worlds I played in) and thus they would mean obsolutely nothing to me.

The worst emotion they could conjure up was getting me to rage quiet because their fate has been handled in such an atroicious way that I do not want to even get the least bit attached to my new PC in the fear that it was handled the same way.

Between the two extremes is every degree of irriation, and then we are not even getting into the fact that a former PC return would steal focus from the new PC:

Well, sorry to tell you, but as has been said earlier, your characters are technically Bioware's NPCs again after you've finished the game. (Unless someone has stated otherwise in the past few pages that I didn't bother to read, lol)

Bioware has the right and the ability to do with them as they please. And you can always imagen by yourself that things happened otherwise or never even happened in the first place. (Considering how you imagened how your Warden/Hawke would behave, I think you can also imagen how they would've behaved otherwise or wouldn't appear at all if Bioware made them return.)

Sure they have the right. But tell me why I should care about the faith of these bioware NPC I don't know? Why should I be any kind of invested in their fate. These would be two characters might as well be random villager number 7 and 8.

[Jerrybnsn]

esper wrote...


There is no way to better kill a new story than to re introduce the last major character. Espically if they are there for pure fan service. As your 'not necessary effect the plot' thing suggest.

I can sympathize with what you are saying about switching to other characters could ruin your experience.  There was this game called L.A. Noir, which, although not that exciting of a game, had a most excellent story telling of a Los Angeles detective in the late 1940s.  At the end of the game, they dropped your protagonist whom you had been playing with for the entire game, to finish up the last two chapters with a completely different protagonist.  It wasn't a good effect and hurt the enjoyment of the game, to me.

But I'm not suggesting something like that.  And as far as "not necessarily" part of the plot, meaning that they are being useful to the plot, but any overpowered npc could actually be doing what they are doing.  So you could just skip the option of your Warden or Hawke being there and it'll be someone else you'll be controlling, but at a much smaller section of time because there would be no need for the closure and what not. 

[esper]

Jerrybnsn wrote...

esper wrote...


There is no way to better kill a new story than to re introduce the last major character. Espically if they are there for pure fan service. As your 'not necessary effect the plot' thing suggest.

I can sympathize with what you are saying about switching to other characters could ruin your experience.  There was this game called L.A. Noir, which, although not that exciting of a game, had a most excellent story telling of a Los Angeles detective in the late 1940s.  At the end of the game, they dropped your protagonist whom you had been playing with for the entire game, to finish up the last two chapters with a completely different protagonist.  It wasn't a good effect and hurt the enjoyment of the game, to me.

But I'm not suggesting something like that.  And as far as "not necessarily" part of the plot, meaning that they are being useful to the plot, but any overpowered npc could actually be doing what they are doing.  So you could just skip the option of your Warden or Hawke being there and it'll be someone else you'll be controlling, but at a much smaller section of time because there would be no need for the closure and what not. 

Again if any high level NPC could take their place. They have no place in the story and we are having a terrible story telling.

I have a least so much faith in bioware that if they are going to introduce the two former PC it will at least make sense and not just for a role anyone could take over.

[LucianaIV]

esper wrote...

Jerrybnsn wrote...

esper wrote...


There is no way to better kill a new story than to re introduce the last major character. Espically if they are there for pure fan service. As your 'not necessary effect the plot' thing suggest.

I can sympathize with what you are saying about switching to other characters could ruin your experience.  There was this game called L.A. Noir, which, although not that exciting of a game, had a most excellent story telling of a Los Angeles detective in the late 1940s.  At the end of the game, they dropped your protagonist whom you had been playing with for the entire game, to finish up the last two chapters with a completely different protagonist.  It wasn't a good effect and hurt the enjoyment of the game, to me.

But I'm not suggesting something like that.  And as far as "not necessarily" part of the plot, meaning that they are being useful to the plot, but any overpowered npc could actually be doing what they are doing.  So you could just skip the option of your Warden or Hawke being there and it'll be someone else you'll be controlling, but at a much smaller section of time because there would be no need for the closure and what not. 

Again if any high level NPC could take their place. They have no place in the story and we are having a terrible story telling.

I have a least so much faith in bioware that if they are going to introduce the two former PC it will at least make sense and not just for a role anyone could take over.

Agreed, if they do appear in DA:I, I would want it to be because The Inquisitor actually needs their help in his/her own mission, not just as fanservice or a short cameo like Alistair in DA2, I will still admit that it was nice to see him, but his appearance served no real purpose.

Modifié par LucianaIV, 16 août 2013 - 02:43 .

[Jerrybnsn]

LucianaIV wrote...

Agreed, if they do appear in DA:I, I would want it to be because The Inquisitor actually needs their help in his/her own mission, not just as fanservice or a short cameo like Alistair in DA2, I will still admit that it was nice to see him, but his appearance served no real purpose.

And here is how I stated their appearance could be:

Use the characters in a useful, important way.  No meaningless cameo. Having them stand around and ramble like Alistair or Zevern is lame.  What role could a level 23-28 character play in Inquisition?  Gee, I don't know?  How about using all that badassness and creating havoc through the enemy lines.  Remember the awe of playing Hawke in the prolouge where he was overpowered?  Well, imagine it the same with your Warden or Hawke somewhere in the middle of the game or towards the end, except it would be real.


So, if you use your Hawke or Warden, or not, the actual scene would be useful and important.  If you do use your warden or hawke it will obviously be much more deeper and meaningful unlike an Alistair cameo.

[Jerrybnsn]

esper wrote...

I have a least so much faith in bioware that if they are going to introduce the two former PC it will at least make sense .....

Agree.  I believe they can do it.

Modifié par Jerrybnsn, 16 août 2013 - 02:54 .

[esper]

Jerrybnsn wrote...

LucianaIV wrote...

Agreed, if they do appear in DA:I, I would want it to be because The Inquisitor actually needs their help in his/her own mission, not just as fanservice or a short cameo like Alistair in DA2, I will still admit that it was nice to see him, but his appearance served no real purpose.

And here is how I stated their appearance could be:

Use the characters in a useful, important way.  No meaningless cameo. Having them stand around and ramble like Alistair or Zevern is lame.  What role could a level 23-28 character play in Inquisition?  Gee, I don't know?  How about using all that badassness and creating havoc through the enemy lines.  Remember the awe of playing Hawke in the prolouge where he was overpowered?  Well, imagine it the same with your Warden or Hawke somewhere in the middle of the game or towards the end, except it would be real.


So, if you use your Hawke or Warden, or not, the actual scene would be useful and important.  If you do use your warden or hawke it will obviously be much more deeper and meaningful unlike an Alistair cameo.

That is exactly the kind of pointless cameo any warrior could take on, or do you think the warden and Hawke are the only competent fighters in Thedas?

And I certainly didn't feel awe fighting as overpowered Hawke in the prolouge. I felt overpowered and kind of bored.

While I am firmly against having them in. If they are there, by god have it be more than pure fan service and pointless cameo.

[Jerrybnsn]

esper wrote...

...... and not just for a role anyone could take over.

I disagree.  Believe it or not, there are those out there who don't want anything to do with Hawke or the Warden again.  Ever!  Something about "headcanon",. I don't know.  This was added, so that we could avoid fan rage against being forced to play the Warden or Hawke again, if that is their true desire.

Bottom line, there would be a scene that would play out that would be useful and make sense to the game. But having Hawke or the Warden carry it out wouldn't necessarly be crucial to the plot.  Whether you choose the extra content of the Warden or Hawke would be up to you.

Originally, I didn't have this scenario of picking a defualt character, but it turn out the only fan rage left to deal with was the ..."I just don't want to play them again" rage.

Modifié par Jerrybnsn, 16 août 2013 - 03:04 .

[esper]

Jerrybnsn wrote...

esper wrote...

...... and not just for a role anyone could take over.

I disagree.  Believe it or not, there are those out there who don't want anything to do with Hawke or the Warden again.  Ever!  Something about "headcanon",. I don't know.  This was added, so that we could avoid fan rage against being forced to play the Warden or Hawke again, if that is their true desire.

Bottom line, there would be a scene that would play out that would be useful and make sense to the game. But having Hawke or the Warden carry it out wouldn't necessarly be crucial to the plot.  Whether you choose the extra content of the Warden or Hawke would be up to you.

And again this would be to address those who want to carry on in the Dragon Age series but don't want to have anything to do with their former protagonists.

What you are suggestion here is not a compromise. It is bad writing. If the warden and Hawke eventual role can be filled by another high level NPC they have no role in the plot.

If they have to include them, the least they should do is doing it right. Easily replaced role and a meaningless fighting cameo is not a good inclusion but really just the before mentioned spotlight stealer.

[Jerrybnsn]

esper wrote...


That is exactly the kind of pointless cameo any warrior could take on, or do you think the warden and Hawke are the only competent fighters in Thedas?

And I certainly didn't feel awe fighting as overpowered Hawke in the prolouge. I felt overpowered and kind of bored.

While I am firmly against having them in. If they are there, by god have it be more than pure fan service and pointless cameo.

Those are actually good points in just skipping that all together.  If  you don't want the Warden and Hawke scenes at all, just skip it all together instead of trying to mask it with another default character is so unnecessary.  Just skip it.  Awesome.  In the character creator, after you made your "Inquisitor", it can then ask: RECREATE YOUR HAWK AND WARDEN.  Yes means yes.  NO means no.  And then there'll be no Warden or Hawke at all for those that chose that option.

Thanks esper

[Jessabeth]

esper wrote...

What you are suggestion here is not a compromise. It is bad writing. If the warden and Hawke eventual role can be filled by another high level NPC they have no role in the plot.

If they have to include them, the least they should do is doing it right. Easily replaced role and a meaningless fighting cameo is not a good inclusion but really just the before mentioned spotlight stealer.

I'm with you, Esper.
I don't want to see some ridiculous spot-light stealing moment where suddenly Hawke or the Warden become super, elite, OMG DID YOU JUST SEE THAT?! type of characters. 

1. What would be the point other than fanservice?
2. That would just be terrible, over the top writing that would sully the rest of what sounds like a great game.



I guess I just need someone to explian WHY they need Hawke and or the Warden to come back in such a fashion. 
Is it not enough for them to get "closure" (I believe we already have it in the form of disappearances because it really doesn't matter what happens to them after their stories) by way of some sort of scene or conversation with NPCs who "saw it happen", whatever it may be?

[esper]

Jerrybnsn wrote...

esper wrote...


That is exactly the kind of pointless cameo any warrior could take on, or do you think the warden and Hawke are the only competent fighters in Thedas?

And I certainly didn't feel awe fighting as overpowered Hawke in the prolouge. I felt overpowered and kind of bored.

While I am firmly against having them in. If they are there, by god have it be more than pure fan service and pointless cameo.

Those are actually good points in just skipping that all together.  If  you don't want the Warden and Hawke scenes at all, just skip it all together instead of trying to mask it with another default character is so unnecessary.  Just skip it.  Awesome.  In the character creator, after you made your "Inquisitor", it can then ask: RECREATE YOUR HAWK AND WARDEN.  Yes means yes.  NO means no.  And then there'll be no Warden or Hawke at all for those that chose that option.

Thanks esper

And thus a kitten was set on fire for the ill disguised request for a toggle. RIP little kitten.

And you are not reading anything I say are you?

If there are no point in them being there and there appearence can just as easily be toggled off. Then there is no point and it is bad writing and ill hidden fan service. This is not just an a game mechnanic. This is an important part of the narrative and if you can seriously when making the character say, skip this plot "Yes/No" then the plot should be skipped all together.

[Jerrybnsn]

esper wrote...


If there are no point in them being there and there appearence can just as easily be toggled off. Then there is no point and it is bad writing and ill hidden fan service. This is not just an a game mechnanic. This is an important part of the narrative and if you can seriously when making the character say, skip this plot "Yes/No" then the plot should be skipped all together.

And you won't see it.  Because you choose the no.  There are a lot of games that have extra content that you'll never see because of your decisions.

[draken-heart]

For them to NOT appear. Or to have them hidden under a mask so we cannot see the face and just use "hero/Warden-Commander" or "Champion" when addressing them.

[Jessabeth]

Jerrybnsn wrote...

esper wrote...


If there are no point in them being there and there appearence can just as easily be toggled off. Then there is no point and it is bad writing and ill hidden fan service. This is not just an a game mechnanic. This is an important part of the narrative and if you can seriously when making the character say, skip this plot "Yes/No" then the plot should be skipped all together.

And you won't see it.  Because you choose the no.  There are a lot of games that have extra content that you'll never see because of your decisions.

The difference, which you seem to ignore every time Esper says it, is that those games aren't bringing back giant, scene-stealing characters that used to be your PC in a previous game. xD

Extra content is one thing. Bringing in PCs pointlessly just so you can walk around as them for a bit of nostalgia is another.

[Jerrybnsn]

Jessabeth wrote...

Jerrybnsn wrote...

esper wrote...


If there are no point in them being there and there appearence can just as easily be toggled off. Then there is no point and it is bad writing and ill hidden fan service.

And you won't see it.  Because you choose the no.  There are a lot of games that have extra content that you'll never see because of your decisions.

The difference, which you seem to ignore every time Esper says it, is that those games aren't bringing back giant, scene-stealing characters that used to be your PC in a previous game. xD

Extra content is one thing. Bringing in PCs pointlessly just so you can walk around as them for a bit of nostalgia is another.

I understand  you are just tyring to save us from being subjected to "scene-stealing characters" and don't want us to ruin our experince of enjoying DAIII.  I appreciate your concern but as I stated in my op that there is a real hot issue about the Wardne and Hawke.  As I stated:

We should Have this because of the Need for real closure:  People have a strong connection with their characters and need more than passing mention about their ends.  In proportion, if a sibling, parent or spouse past away, would you be content with reading a blurp in your local obituary?  Or having some stranger mention that they are dead and how they died?  Heck, even having a breakup with your girl or boyfriend needs more than just a brief mention.This is the "Closure" that everyone is talking about. When people's relationships ends there is the process of closure that they need to go through.  At least those whose Wardens had died are correct that they received closure.  They had a pretty good eulogy given in their honor.

[LucianaIV]

I don't see the problem with a toggle in itself, those that don't want it, can make sure they don't get it, those that do want it like me, will get it.

What gives people saying ''no'' the right to rob those that feel otherwise of our enjoyment in DA:I?

[Jerrybnsn]

Jessabeth wrote...

[Extra content is one thing. Bringing in PCs pointlessly just so you can walk around as them for a bit of nostalgia is another.

And as I said in my op, to bring back the former pcs in a non-pointlessly manner. I'll trust the Bioware team would be able to make sense and have purpose on many levels of the game itself, the story, the fun and the closure of the "missing" heroes.  And you may choose to skip it if you will.  Sort of like all that Promethan extra content in ME3.  But you wouldn't have to pay for it.  (Do you hear that EA execs?)

[Jerrybnsn]

Did I just drop the mic?

[esper]

Jerrybnsn wrote...

Jessabeth wrote...

Jerrybnsn wrote...

esper wrote...


If there are no point in them being there and there appearence can just as easily be toggled off. Then there is no point and it is bad writing and ill hidden fan service.

And you won't see it.  Because you choose the no.  There are a lot of games that have extra content that you'll never see because of your decisions.

The difference, which you seem to ignore every time Esper says it, is that those games aren't bringing back giant, scene-stealing characters that used to be your PC in a previous game. xD

Extra content is one thing. Bringing in PCs pointlessly just so you can walk around as them for a bit of nostalgia is another.

I understand  you are just tyring to save us from being subjected to "scene-stealing characters" and don't want us to ruin our experince of enjoying DAIII.  I appreciate your concern but as I stated in my op that there is a real hot issue about the Wardne and Hawke.  As I stated:

We should Have this because of the Need for real closure:  People have a strong connection with their characters and need more than passing mention about their ends.  In proportion, if a sibling, parent or spouse past away, would you be content with reading a blurp in your local obituary?  Or having some stranger mention that they are dead and how they died?  Heck, even having a breakup with your girl or boyfriend needs more than just a brief mention.This is the "Closure" that everyone is talking about. When people's relationships ends there is the process of closure that they need to go through.  At least those whose Wardens had died are correct that they received closure.  They had a pretty good eulogy given in their honor.

And how would your suggestion of a fighting scene with Hawke and the Warden give you closure? 

Second.  There is no reason for Hawke to die yet, and the calling is still some time off for the warden.

And what you are suggestion is not closure. If you are making the real life analouge, you have now moved into stalkerish behaviour wiht the need of knowing ever life detail.

Thirdly. Closure to the warden and Hawke's story in a completely different story about a completely different person is still pure spotlight stealing. If, and I don't think they need to, but if they are in the story, their inclusion have to have to with the Inqustion. And it need to be a pretty damn good reason, not simply fan service, because their inclusion will violate a lot of people's head canon's, so by god it has to be done perfectly. And empty fight scene that can be toggled off is not perfectly.

[esper]

LucianaIV wrote...

I don't see the problem with a toggle in itself, those that don't want it, can make sure they don't get it, those that do want it like me, will get it.

What gives people saying ''no'' the right to rob those that feel otherwise of our enjoyment in DA:I?

Because we have been told, that every time we request a toggle a kitten dies in a horrible fire:crying:

Secondly, this is no little matter. Somethings should not be catered to, and to some problem there exist no compromise.

Either the warden or Hawke is in it, or they isn't. Bioware should tell a story that is stronger than we can toggle important plot point on/off.

[TheKomandorShepard]

esper wrote...


Second.  There is no reason for Hawke to die yet, and the calling is still some time off for the warden.

My warden have still 200 years hhoho xD

[esper]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

esper wrote...


Second.  There is no reason for Hawke to die yet, and the calling is still some time off for the warden.

My warden have still 200 years hhoho xD

Befriend those craxy blood mages can have its benefit.

[Jessabeth]

Jerrybnsn wrote...

Jessabeth wrote...

[Extra content is one thing. Bringing in PCs pointlessly just so you can walk around as them for a bit of nostalgia is another.

And as I said in my op, to bring back the former pcs in a non-pointlessly manner. I'll trust the Bioware team would be able to make sense and have purpose on many levels of the game itself, the story, the fun and the closure of the "missing" heroes.  And you may choose to skip it if you will.  Sort of like all that Promethan extra content in ME3.  But you wouldn't have to pay for it.  (Do you hear that EA execs?)

If it's something that can be skipped, it's not really important to the story, then is it?
If it's not important enough that it needs to be watched, would it truly offer the amount of closure that everyone wants?
What is closure, then at this point? For some, it seems that the disappearance is enough. Will it EVER be enough for everyone? If not, who do they cater to? 

As Esper said, how does a large fight that puts us in the shoes of the old PCs have anything to do with closure?
Actually, what kind of closure can you expect by playing old PCs, anyways? How long playing the old PCs would satisfy you and to what extent would it provide closure?

It doesn't seem like you have this thought out beyond "Let's see them in an awesome battle that doesn't really close anything!!" xD

[Jerrybnsn]

Jessabeth wrote...

If it's something that can be skipped, it's not really important to the story, then is it?

Was the Promethean content in ME3 not really important to the story?  If you didn't play it, no.  If you did, yes

It doesn't seem like you have this thought out beyond "Let's see them in an awesome battle that doesn't really close anything!!" xD

The awesome battle would be for fun and to make more usefulness with a level 23-28 badass character. What are you suppose to do with them? Have them make cheese?
http://t1.gstatic.co...dtpglzUecQY4rSw

Modifié par Jerrybnsn, 16 août 2013 - 05:16 .