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[In Exile]

Jerrybnsn wrote...
Where Flemeth comes in because she was non-essential to the DA2 plot.  Which I was expecting Morrigan to have more of a role than she did.  Am I wrong on that.  I do want to know what the story is about before I make a decision to purchase it.

You're completely wrong. Without Flemeth, Hawke dies and is murdered by the blight. Flemeth is as essential in DA2 as she is in DA:O. 

[Nerevar-as]

In Exile wrote...

Jerrybnsn wrote...
Where Flemeth comes in because she was non-essential to the DA2 plot.  Which I was expecting Morrigan to have more of a role than she did.  Am I wrong on that.  I do want to know what the story is about before I make a decision to purchase it.

You're completely wrong. Without Flemeth, Hawke dies and is murdered by the blight. Flemeth is as essential in DA2 as she is in DA:O. 

Or it could have been written that Hawke and company could have slipped past the DS and gotten to Gwaren. The rest of the game doesn´t fall apart because she isn´t there. Origins is kind of the same, until we learn of her plan to get the AD reincarnated she did little more than arguing with Morrigan.

[Jerrybnsn]

 

In Exile wrote...

Jerrybnsn wrote...
Where Flemeth comes in because she was non-essential to the DA2 plot. 

You're completely wrong. Without Flemeth, Hawke dies and is murdered by the blight. Flemeth is as essential in DA2 as she is in DA:O. 

While I do see Flemeth as a vital character in the Dragon Age universe, and she did forward the plot of DA2 by saving Hawke and getting him out of Fereldan, if you cut that part of the plot and never mention it, you could just assume Hawke showed up in Kirkwall with the other thousands of Fereldan refugees and moved on from that part of the story.  The plot wouldn't be effected if you didn't mention it. So her appearance seems to me to be in the game as establishing plot points.

I saw her role in the game as 1) to establish right of the bat that the Warden did not kill her and 2) to establish that she is going to be a pivotal character to be reckon with, and 3) to annoint Hawke as the glorified delievery boy and give him his first delivery.

Modifié par Jerrybnsn, 18 août 2013 - 12:03 .

[Reidbynature]

In Exile wrote...

Jerrybnsn wrote...
Where Flemeth comes in because she was non-essential to the DA2 plot.  Which I was expecting Morrigan to have more of a role than she did.  Am I wrong on that.  I do want to know what the story is about before I make a decision to purchase it.

You're completely wrong. Without Flemeth, Hawke dies and is murdered by the blight. Flemeth is as essential in DA2 as she is in DA:O. 

Flemeth's role in DA2 was a cameo at best.  Her part is not vital as you could subsitute it and not impact on DA2's story.  In Origins not only does she save the Warden, but she enacts a plan that involves your Warden and if you wish to pursue Morrigan's story at camp then Flemeth comes up quite a bit.  Though saying that she's largely non-essential to the main plot of Dragon Age apart from offering you a way out near the end through Morrigan's ritual by sending Morrigan with you, but she does have a significant side story with herself and Morrigan in Origins.

Modifié par Reidbynature, 18 août 2013 - 12:24 .

[Reidbynature]

Foshizzlin wrote...

Huh?

In DA2, Flemeth again saves the Champion and company after they slay an Ogre and are overrun by Darkspawn. Flemeth is responsible for keeping them alive. No Flemeth, then no Champion, and if that's the case, you'd basically get a "Game over" screen at the end of the prologue mission. Talk about a short game.

I'll spell it out for you.  Had that been anyone else in Flemeth's place or that part had simply been cut then you'd be none the wiser.  That is not an essential part of the story and has little impact on DA2's story.  Like other's have said cut out Flemeth and the story would hardly fall apart.

[In Exile]

Reidbynature wrote...

Foshizzlin wrote...

Huh?

In DA2, Flemeth again saves the Champion and company after they slay an Ogre and are overrun by Darkspawn. Flemeth is responsible for keeping them alive. No Flemeth, then no Champion, and if that's the case, you'd basically get a "Game over" screen at the end of the prologue mission. Talk about a short game.

I'll spell it out for you.  Had that been anyone else in Flemeth's place or that part had simply been cut then you'd be none the wiser.  That is not an essential part of the story and has little impact on DA2's story.  Like other's have said cut out Flemeth and the story would hardly fall apart.

So if they cut the Tower of Ishal, there you go, Flemeth is irrelevant in DA:O. I dislike it when people use arguments and then don't see how they apply equally well in the situation they're defending. 

Her sidequest is irrelevant, the DR is irrelevant beucase it isn't needed to stop the archdemon, and Morrgain herself is irrelevant because she could run away and you'd still beat the archdemon. 

Modifié par In Exile, 18 août 2013 - 01:01 .

[Jessabeth]

Jerrybnsn wrote...

daveliam wrote...

When you say: "....essentially, Inquisition is Morrigan's story.", you are indicating that, in essence, the story is about Morrigan. What I think you meant to say was that Morrigan was essential to the story. This is a different sentiment; same root word, but different meaning. I think it was just a misunderstanding.

I think it's fair to take from Allan's statement that Morrigan will play some role in the story, but she is not the primary focus.

No, Allen is right.  I really thought that this was her story in essence.  That without her there was no story, that her role was crucial to the plot. Sort of that the Witcher 2's story was essentially the story of the socorreses' conspiracy.  So Morrigan would have been kind of like that, complete with spankings.  I believe Allen is saying that she isn't crucial like that and in essence she isn't the story because of that. So if I'm wrong, as he says I am,  I'll admit I read into Morrigan's return too much and that I'm wrong.

You're giving a false dichotomy. This isn't "Either Morrigan is the sole focus of the story or she might as well not be a part of it". Morrigan likely plays a big role, but this is NOT her story. This is the story of the Inquisitioner. Now I'm not sure, but you're either intentionally misreading what is being said or you are struggling with reading comprehension (perhaps due to English not being your first language). It has been explained multiple times that Morrigan is not the focus of this story but rather a medium piece of the puzzle.

[Reidbynature]

You really aren't getting it. Her part is irrelevant to the story, that's why it can be cut out easily. Your silly examples are butchering of stories and saying 'stuff happened' instead. You show little understanding and call them unimportant when they were actually essential to the story. Flemeth plays no real role in the story of DA2. She just saves your party and you move on (excluding a little thank you scene at the top of a mountain).

As for for replacing Flemeth. Just about anyone. A seasoned mage or a small band of veteran fighters could have arguably saved Hawke and company from those Darkspawn. Again. Far from essential.

[Allan Schumacher]

Yes, we could have done the scene without Flemeth. That we didn't mostly just says "We wanted her to be the one because reasons (presumably because there's a degree of intrigue that she's saved not only the Warden, but Hawke as well."

For some, that it's Flemeth doing the rescuing IS what makes it more interesting. It's not just some random mage (unless you haven't played DAO). As such, it IS still Flemeth that saves the player, and as such played a part in Hawke's story.

If the issue is distilling down the requirements for what it means to be "essential" be careful that your consideration doesn't effectively make it applicable to any and all characters. For a lot of things in both games, we could have gone with a completely different character.


In any case, equating what Morrigan's involvement in the story is to Flemeth's is a conclusion drawn to by someone else.  It needn't be accurate.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 18 août 2013 - 01:27 .

[Reidbynature]

@Allan. Don't get me wrong. I think it's interesting she appeared and I liked her new look. I just think that she's too important to be wasted on a fleeting cameo like that.

[Allan Schumacher]

Reidby, not only this, but you're also forgetting Flemeth gave Hawke a
particular item in this scene, an amulet with her essence in it. It can
be inferred Flemeth believed Morrigan and (possibly) the Warden would
track her down and kill her, so how else would she survive other than
giving a particular trinket to a particular Champion Flemeth saw destiny
in? To Flemeth's own character it was a vital scene.

Indeed.

@Allan. Don't get me wrong. I think it's interesting she appeared and I
liked her new look. I just think that she's too important to be wasted
on a fleeting cameo like that.

If we're talking about Morrigan, I would agree.  If we're talking about Flemeth, I'm less inclined to agree.  Flemeth's role in DAO is very similar to DA2, and aside from the part where you meet her, isn't featured all that much in the game aside from Morrigan's personal quest.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 18 août 2013 - 01:32 .

[Reidbynature]

Foshizzlin wrote...

you're also forgetting Flemeth gave Hawke a particular item in this scene

Just because I didn't mention it doesn't mean I wasn't thinking of it.  Regardless I'm done on this subject.  I could say more, but I don't want to go down this road to be honest.

[Fallstar]

For many people, their Warden was last seen heading through the Eluvian with Morrigan. Since Morrigan supposedly plays a significant role in DA:I, it is logical to me that we will either see the Warden with Morrigan, or receive some sort of explanation as to where the Warden is and/or what happened to him. It will be quite irritating and dismissive if we don't get any mention of the Warden at all.

I don't feel the need to play as the Warden if this story is primarily about the Inquisitor. Also, as unlikely as it probably is given previous statements by Bioware employees, I would love to have a future game where we get to play as the Warden again and continue our Warden's story.

I know a lot of people wouldn't, and I am sure I will enjoy several future DA titles without the Warden as our PC, this is just what I'd like to see, so don't bite my head off

[LucianaIV]

Ehh yeah guys, concerning Flemeth, do remember that the scene with Hawke plays DURING the blight, very likely, not even a day later Flemeth was killed by The Warden, leaving her essence in the amulet as the only piece left of her.

So yes, this was crucial to Flemeth, because she already expected The Warden would come for her head in Morrigan's name.

[daveliam]

DuskWarden wrote...

For many people, their Warden was last seen heading through the Eluvian with Morrigan. Since Morrigan supposedly plays a significant role in DA:I, it is logical to me that we will either see the Warden with Morrigan, or receive some sort of explanation as to where the Warden is and/or what happened to him. It will be quite irritating and dismissive if we don't get any mention of the Warden at all.

I don't feel the need to play as the Warden if this story is primarily about the Inquisitor. Also, as unlikely as it probably is given previous statements by Bioware employees, I would love to have a future game where we get to play as the Warden again and continue our Warden's story.

I know a lot of people wouldn't, and I am sure I will enjoy several future DA titles without the Warden as our PC, this is just what I'd like to see, so don't bite my head off

I think that this is part of the beauty of a Bioware game.  Your warden went through the Eluvian with Morrigan.  Mine rebuilt the Ferelden wardens and is rumored to be in Antiva with Zevran.  Others are dead.  Others are/were the King or Queen of Ferelden.  There are so many variable that there just can't be a one size fits all explanation of what happened to that particular character.  I'm sure the writers are going to come up with something, but it might have to be as vague as it was at the end of DA2.  I'm not getting my hopes up there will be anything more about the Warden or Hawke and, frankly, I'm okay with that.

[Realmzmaster]

Flemeth is not essential to either DAO or DA2. I think that it is neat that see is in both games. Morrigan is not essential to DAO. The Warden does not have to me Morrigan to complete the overall task. The warden documents could have simply been found in an intact warded chest. The warden never has to meet Morrigan or Flemeth (who in the game has rescued the papers). In the Tower the Alistair and the Warden could simply fight their way out along with the other two temporary companions (or dog and a temporary companion). No Flemeth. No Morrigan. No DR. The other parts of DAO do not rely on Flemeth or Morrigan. The writers could simply write the story a different way.

The only essential character in the game is the protagonist. Basically Flemeth's part in DAO is the same as DA2 not essential.

Gamers have a tendency to make things essential because they want it to be essential. Much like the appearance of Hawke or the Warden in DAI. It may be essential to them, but not to everyone else.
Toggles can be a pain to program especially the number that are being ask for on the forum. You could change the name of the Game to DAI War of the Toggle.
I would rather see a strong story for the Inquisitor since he/she is the focus of the game.

[Jerrybnsn]

Allan Schumacher wrote...
.... even if we did detail out the stuff in your OP, that it still wouldn't fall short for you.

1)  It's literally caused you to suggest multiple character generation sequences
2) complete with recording the voice overs for the variety of different voices you could use in DAO,

IF the warden and hawke was to appear

1) Recreating your own Warden or Hawke was to solve the problem that characters appearances wouldn't cross over (which I don't even think is possible), so it would have to be done anyway.  So the player would be able to make their character exactly the way that they want them.  Am I the only one who likes making characters? multiple characters? Is that really a bad thing? I'm not sure if that is what you are saying. Dragon's Dogma has you create two, and that's not optional, this would be.

2) I only suggested one voice actor for the Warden, the same one that was used for their comments.  True, they had different personality variations; however they could just play it straight.  Because,the Hawke personality variations didn't work very well in practice.
 

while creating some level of significant content so that it's not just a cameo (and ideally not just someone that could have been done by anyone),

"Charge!!!  Yeeeeaaaarrrgghh!!"
 

complete with a plethora of toggles and assorted options for a gameplay sequence that may not even be that long,

I only suggested one toggle for skiping the appearances all together, when the idea of having a default character in place still wasn't appeasing the "don't want to see the Hawke or Warden for any reason" crowd.  So toggle to skip.  CoD offered that option for a controversial scene.  It's not necessary for the plot of the game, but it fits within the story if you do play it.


 

all the while opening up your explanations for wanting these factors with stuff like "This shouldn't be a problem."

It is just a suggestion on things that have been done in the past, either in Dragon Age itself, or other games out there.

At this point though, if there isn't anything very concrete, for your own sense of sanity I encourage you to not get too hopeful about a lot of in depth stuff with the Warden, since there's a very good chance you'll end up disappointed if you just let your hopes and imaginations run wild without remaining somewhat grounded.

Duly noted.  Bioware: There's a very good chance you'll end up disappointed.

Modifié par Jerrybnsn, 18 août 2013 - 02:11 .

[Jessabeth]

Jerrybnsn wrote...

At this point though, if there isn't anything very concrete, for your own sense of sanity I encourage you to not get too hopeful about a lot of in depth stuff with the Warden, since there's a very good chance you'll end up disappointed if you just let your hopes and imaginations run wild without remaining somewhat grounded.

Duly noted.  Bioware: There's a very good chance you'll end up disappointed.

Seriously? I mean, really? Do you not get what he's saying? 
If it's not confirmed, don't get it in your head that it exists otherwise there is a good chance that you will be disappointed. 
It's getting to be tedious to try and reason with you.

[Jerrybnsn]

Reidbynature wrote...

Though saying that she's largely non-essential to the main plot of Dragon Age apart from offering you a way out near the end through Morrigan's ritual by sending Morrigan with you, but she does have a significant side story with herself and Morrigan in Origins.

Plot points to be carried forward.  Because, if you cut the whole she want's Morrigan's body to possess, and mate with a Grey Warden for an OGB, it still doesn't effect the plot of the game, which was to "Stop the Blight".  So you could say that Flemeth's plot points in DA2 were the same plot points (come on, seriously, you didn't know that she wasn't dead, Morrigan even thanks you and says that she probably isn't dead and will have to be dealt with later) carried once more forward.

[LucianaIV]

Realmzmaster wrote...

I would rather see a strong story for the Inquisitor since he/she is the focus of the game.

I completely agree with this as I said a few pages back.

The Inquisitor's story being done right is to me far more important then a 1 min helmet on cameo for The Warden or Hawke, if that is the only option for the two characters, I'd rather not see them at all.

The sticky thing is that demand for the two characters is still high, a lot of people still want both in it, the problem however is that an easymode solution simply won't cut it, if they appear, people like me would want it to be a proper and significant appearance, not a meaningless fan service cameo like Alistair in DA2.

IF they should appear, I would want it to be because there are important story reasons for them to reappear, important enough to warrant proper resources spent on both of them, the option to recreate them, voices, etc.