184 réponses à ce sujet

[Volus Warlord]

Dungeons, yes.

Environments, no.

[cJohnOne]

Does no level scaling mean a slow level ups in gaining powers? I'm not sure I like the sound of that.

[kathic]

I am sorry, did you want to slay dragons while you still have rags and a wooden sword? You can explore in your open world as long as you are willing to get stepped on by things that are bigger than you.

[Fetunche]

I don't mind this, I always thought that low level PC shouldn't be able to slay a high dragon and a high level PC should not have trouble with street thugs.

[AllThatJazz]

I can't stand level scaling. At the start of a game, I WANT to feel overwhelmed, as though I'm a small player in a world full of things that can tear me apart, so I need to be cautious and start slowly. By endgame, I want to feel like the biggest badass in the world, someone who can easily crush anything bar the most powerful of foes. Having said that, I also always, always, want to feel terrified of the really big monsters, such as high dragons (unlike in Skyrim, where they became so painfully easy to kill it was boring). Generally though, non-scaling gives me a clear sense of character progression beyond simply assigning skill points etc. Level-scaling offers none of this, it just feels as though the entire gameworld is roughly on par with my character all the time, and personally I don't think that's how it should be

Modifié par AllThatJazz, 14 août 2013 - 08:31 .

[Provi-dance]

'No level scaling' is the best announcement Bioware has made in the past decade.

Right, they used the words "very little"/"rarely", but "no" sounds slightly better.

[iOnlySignIn]

It makes very little difference in practice IMO.

Because even with level scaling the PCs are going to become much more powerful than their opponents as the game progresses. That's just humans (most of us, anyway) being smarter than AIs.

What is really good is what no level scaling implies: it implies that many powerful enemies are going to persist long enough for you to level up and challenge them multiple times. This would greatly improve replayability since you're going to engage these enemies at different levels and with different strategies.

^ But, you can have persistent enemies even with level scaling. The variety would be less then but there'd still be variety.

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 14 août 2013 - 08:49 .

[cJohnOne]

But no level scaling should limit the zones you can do first instead of being able to pick and choose which treaties you could do.

[cJohnOne]

EntropicAngel wrote...

cJohnOne wrote...

But no level scaling should limit the zones you can do first instead of being able to pick and choose which treaties you could do.

How so? It only means that they are harder--tougher. It doesn't mean you can't do them.

Oh that's right nevermind but if enemies don't level with you the second zone won't be as difficult. assuming there are 2 easy zones.

[cJohnOne]

If you do the deep roads out of order it would make rest of the game a cake walk if you don't have level scaling.

[Ziggeh]

EntropicAngel wrote...
How so? It only means that they are harder--tougher. It doesn't mean you can't do them.

But it would mean there was an implied and optimal route, otherwise making difficulty really janky - too hard in some places, too easy in others

Personally I'm expecting to see lots of instanced content, caves and ruins and such, and I'll purchase a hat to eat if those aren't scaled, so I'm not concerned until I hear otherwise.

[Fast Jimmy]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Non level scaling doesn't mean that you can't beat enemies at a higher level than you. It just means you'll have to be more clever about it than normal.

No level scaling is a wonderful idea. Level scaling means the world around you grows in power with the character--meaning that your character doesn't actually get more powerful. you might as well be playing a game without levels, if they scale.

This is one of those things, like no health regen, that's giving me this weird Final Fantasy vibe.

If you like, us grognards can perform a JRPG exorcism on you?

[cJohnOne]

EntropicAngel wrote...

cJohnOne wrote...

If you do the deep roads out of order it would make rest of the game a cake walk if you don't have level scaling.

Not necessarily. The enemies in each area could be a step up in level. And they could pit you against more and more powerful enemies as you progress.

I don't understand. how would that work in the deep roads example?  The enemies would then rise in level?

[Taleroth]

It depends on the power curve and how they gate.

You simply may be unable to do the equivalent of the deep roads first. Or the difference in power of three levels may be mostly in versatility, not raw numbers.

[Fast Jimmy]

cJohnOne wrote...

But no level scaling should limit the zones you can do first instead of being able to pick and choose which treaties you could do.

More than likely, the options given to you starting out will mostly have low-level enemies, with a few mid-levels sprinkled in. Once you collect enough Reputation points, new options will become available that will let you follow up on the first options, while also giving new ones that have mostly mid-level enemies, with a sprinkling of a few high level ones. Then your Reputation points will trigger another "event" that will give you more leads, with mostly high-level enemies, with a few uber-encounters hidden throughout. 

And, of course, all of that could be wrong and it could be much more organic - where you can walk into a cave at Levek 1 and find enemies ranging from Levels 1-50, but there still be a way to succeed, just be using something outside of direct combat.

After all, let's not forget - stabbing everything that moves should not be the default solution to any and all problems or obstacles. Maybe we can just sneak past the High Dragon? Or, in the case of DA:O, not hit the gong which summons it. 

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 14 août 2013 - 10:02 .

[KC_Prototype]

I have changed my mind. After realizing no level scaling makes the game more fun because you feel more powerful as you level up and enemies present a challenge. Thank you guys for expressing your opinions and making me see it in a better light. Now, what about leveling up though, is it gonna be slower all together or like usual where the higher you level up, the slower you gain xp?

[LinksOcarina]

andar91 wrote...

I think it depends on how it's done. No level scaling can be great if--and I mean IF--there is some way to determine if I'm heading into an area that is beyond me. I don't want to reload my saves all the time just because I had no way of knowing what was coming.

There isen't. The only way is DPS output really.

Mechanically level scaling is actually a big issue in RPGs in general. From a design standpoint, if you are doing 20 DPS to a monster at level 1, then doing 200 DPS to that same monster at level 10, and it still takes around the same amount of hits to go down, what progress is gained?

That was part of the problem with the Elder Scrolls Games, in particular Oblivion. Skyrim did try to change that up by adding degrees for enemies. The bandits for example had names like Bandit Chief, Highwayman, Outlaw, etc that determined their tier of strength. But it was the same DPS issue for the most part.

The question then, is it worth to even level up to level 10 if you only reduce the amount of hits on enemies by 1?  It is not a major change and really makes leveling up almost unecessary. 

The caveat to this is that without level scaling, you need to be more cautious, and be prepared to die. It then becomes an issue of balance, if the enemies are too hard or too high level then you waste time that way, since chances are retreating in-game is never an option. If they are too weak, it becomes too easy.

For tabletops its just some simple math that can balance that out. For the video games, it needs to be balanced from the get-go. One way to do this is to increase the % to make hits noticable. Dragon Age II did that a bit but not enough, a 5-15% difference is meaningless. It needs to be 20-30 for that DPS to be meaningful. 

Some food for thought, fo the scaling to work, the bonuses for the party need to be significant so they have a chance to fight off high-calibur enemies. 

[Ziggeh]

Taleroth wrote...

It depends on the power curve and how they gate.

You simply may be unable to do the equivalent of the deep roads first. Or the difference in power of three levels may be mostly in versatility, not raw numbers.

So what would the benefits be?. It seems that would be trading a more defined sense of place (the world doesn't alter to suit you - which isn't the same thing as "realism" unless random bandits couldn't gank a half the low level content on his tod) with a more linear structure.

I'm not saying it's valueless, and that the challenge of punching above your weight wouldn't be nice, but that doesn't seem like a solid trade.

[Ziggeh]

LinksOcarina wrote...

Mechanically level scaling is actually a big issue in RPGs in general. From a design standpoint, if you are doing 20 DPS to a monster at level 1, then doing 200 DPS to that same monster at level 10, and it still takes around the same amount of hits to go down, what progress is gained?

You want difficulty to remain roughly consistent throughout, so arguably progress is mostly illusion no matter what you do.

[Nerdage]

To me, level scaling is a nasty hack used to mask a wonky game design, and its progression system in particular.

If my end-game character is too powerful and trivializes combat, it either means my character's too powerful or combat/encounter design is bad. If the game isn't satisfying to play unless my character's stupid powerful, something's wrong with the combat system. Level scaling feels like coming up against one of these problems and admitting defeat rather than fixing the root problem.

I do hope the power curve isn't too steep between enemies though; as much as I hate to see rank-and-file bandits be a match for my highly-experienced and uber-geared dragon-killer because of level scaling, I also hate when some rank-and-file bandit kills me in two hits after dodging all my attacks just because it happens to be X levels higher than me.