184 réponses à ce sujet

[fchopin]

Wulfram wrote...

Did they climb Everest so that they'd get better at killing dragons?

No they climb Everest to become better climbers. Practise makes perfect.

[Sylvianus]

Don't see why no level scaling is necessarily better for exploration.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 16 août 2013 - 05:24 .

[Shevy]

I like no scaling, especially in a game with much exploration. Generally I'm going to explore every inch of the maps the moment I'm given the opportunity. Then discovering tough creatures which beat me within seconds and then composing tactics to how kill them anyway, is much fun to me.

[Sylvianus]

Meh. In a world big enough to explore, it's quite unlikely I will return back to this inch of the map just to beat some monsters that were much better than me a long time ago. I never did that in Dragon Dogma. ( But in this game I couldn't teleport, so it was quite boring to travel all the map just to jump until my destination. A big waste of time ) What if the promising treasure behind those monsters is disappointing and even no more relevant to our new level ?

What if those monsters are in a cave which is a true tortuous maze and that the player has explored until the middle of the road before having to turn his way, because of monsters much better than the PC ? Is it really encouraging to have to be back there and travel through long corridors again ?

I do not feel at all it's better for exploration. It's more fun to be able to explore an area when you are there. The exciting opportunity to discover something now.

They should do it carefully as I said if they don't want to breake the relative feeling of freedom that should necessarily bring an open world or a semi open world. ( though we don't really know if DAI is going to be really an open world or something close... )

Modifié par Sylvianus, 16 août 2013 - 10:47 .

[Fast Jimmy]

They should do it carefully as I said if they don't want to breake the relative feeling of freedom that should necessarily bring an open world or a semi open world. ( though we don't really know if DAI is going to be really an open world or something close... )

I thought this was worth pointing out.

For all we know, the game could be divided up into her distinct geographic regions. Maybe you start out in Orlais, but after a certain point, you are moved to Tevinter, or Ferelden or what have you. You would be able to explore all the areas around your home base in these areas, but you wouldn't be able to fast travel from Tevinter to Orlais to go and explore that one cave you see scared out of earlier.

Just a thought. I think this might be more interesting, as it would gate the content you were able to explore a little, while also still giving you free reign to explore anywhere you wish.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 16 août 2013 - 01:06 .

[Catroi]

just do it like F:NV did and be done with it

[Maria Caliban]

fchopin wrote...

What use is exploring in an open world if you end up with the same experience if you explore or not.

You don't end up with the same experience because an experience isn't solely defined by the amount of XP you end up with.

[Provi-dance]

Maria Caliban wrote...

fchopin wrote...

What use is exploring in an open world if you end up with the same experience if you explore or not.

You don't end up with the same experience because an experience isn't solely defined by the amount of XP you end up with.

You end up with the same experience, in the context of the topic about level scaling, because level scaling does precisely that; alters and bends enemies towards a similar combat experience for PCs at different levels.

[Sylvianus]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

They should do it carefully as I said if they don't want to breake the relative feeling of freedom that should necessarily bring an open world or a semi open world. ( though we don't really know if DAI is going to be really an open world or something close... )

I thought this was worth pointing out.

For all we know, the game could be divided up into her distinct geographic regions. Maybe you start out in Orlais, but after a certain point, you are moved to Tevinter, or Ferelden or what have you. You would be able to explore all the areas around your home base in these areas, but you wouldn't be able to fast travel from Tevinter to Orlais to go and explore that one cave you see scared out of earlier.

Just a thought. I think this might be more interesting, as it would gate the content you were able to explore a little, while also still giving you free reign to explore anywhere you wish.

Haha, in this case, that would be interesting indeed.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 16 août 2013 - 01:51 .

[Fast Jimmy]

Provi-dance wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

fchopin wrote...

What use is exploring in an open world if you end up with the same experience if you explore or not.

You don't end up with the same experience because an experience isn't solely defined by the amount of XP you end up with.

You end up with the same experience, in the context of the topic about level scaling, because level scaling does precisely that; alters and bends enemies towards a similar combat experience for PCs at different levels.

I'd disagree. The player's experience during the game is much different without level scaling, since you know that any fight you come across may be way out of your league. With level-scaling, you know you can beat anything you come across.

Sure, you may have a few companions fall or may even have to reload, but you never have the feeling of coming across something your character can't handle by stabbing it enough times. That feeling of nigh invulnerability is a shallow experience in many gamers' eyes. 

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 16 août 2013 - 02:04 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Yes. I'm okay with kicking the ass of random bandits when I'm level 35, but I'd rather important battles or major antagonists still be challenging.

I love the sense of accomplishment I get when major antagonists are no longer challenging.

[Fast Jimmy]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I'd disagree. The player's experience during the game is much different without level scaling, since you know that any fight you come across may be way out of your league. With level-scaling, you know you can beat anything you come across. 

Sure, you may have a few companions fall or may even have to reload, but you never have the feeling of coming across something your character can't handle by stabbing it enough times. That feeling of nigh invulnerability is a shallow experience in many gamers' eyes. 

In my opinion this is where true "scary" moments arrive--in vulnerability. DA I doesn't need to have horror-themed enemies to be scary, just put in the possibilities of being very, very vulnerable.

Agreed. 

My feelings are that this also expands the usefulness of non-combat skills (as does non-regen health).

If every encounter is scaled to be at your combat level, why would you ever feel the need to use any other method to solve a problem, other than just to roleplay/experiment with that character type? 

The sneak skill in DA:O, functionally, worked fine... but it's use outside of direct combat wasn't worth the hassle simply because it was easier to run into a room and kill everyone rather than try to send in one sneaking character to scout or to get any loot. But now if there was an enemy who could be behind that room who would tear my party apart and, even if I could win, would leave me weakened for the rest of the dungeon, it suddenly makes sense for me to send someone with a high sneak skill out ahead in front of the party to make sure they don't wander into a problem. 

And if the rest of the party could engage in other actvities, such as trapping a door they are staying in, taking up defensive positions, casting spells to hide the party, etc. in case an enemy happened to wander into the room the party was hanging out in...

...well, let's not get ahead ourselves here. 

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 16 août 2013 - 05:23 .

[Wulfram]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Yes. I'm okay with kicking the ass of random bandits when I'm level 35, but I'd rather important battles or major antagonists still be challenging.

I love the sense of accomplishment I get when major antagonists are no longer challenging.

Whereas for me it just highlights the absurdity of the levelling system, and robs me of an interesting challenge.

Though to be fair, the final bosses have been oddly easy even with level scaling in the past two games.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Wulfram wrote...

Whereas for me it just highlights the absurdity of the levelling system

This might bother me less because I tend to play mages.  As such, becoming a god-killing abomination makes more sense than it would if I were a melee class.

[Fast Jimmy]

Wulfram wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Yes. I'm okay with kicking the ass of random bandits when I'm level 35, but I'd rather important battles or major antagonists still be challenging.

I love the sense of accomplishment I get when major antagonists are no longer challenging.

Whereas for me it just highlights the absurdity of the levelling system, and robs me of an interesting challenge.

Though to be fair, the final bosses have been oddly easy even with level scaling in the past two games.

Then again, it is a bit of a conceit that the final boss must always be as powerful/more powerful than the party, isn't it?

In war, for example, the final battle is often the point when the enemy is the weakest after attacking them relentlessly through the course of the entire conflict. 

[Fast Jimmy]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

...well, let's not get ahead ourselves here. 

Hey, what are we here for but speculation?

True. 

I am interested in the capabilities a non-scaling, non-regen game with some type of "Exploration" set of skills specific to each class has. It certainly opens up doors in terms of the possibility of having to look at multiple solutions to problems instead of just "combat, combat, combat."

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 16 août 2013 - 05:35 .

[bmwcrazy]

If it's done right, sure.

Just don't make it like Oblivion's.

Especially on higher levels, you got random bandits robbing you 20 gold when they were wearing Daedric or glass armor that cost thousands.

Good thing in Oblivion, there were always user made mods to fix such annoyance. Otherwise, I'd probably just cheat and make a sword that does a million damage, just so I could fully enjoy the game without fighting epic battles with random bandits or monsters every 5 minutes.

[bmwcrazy]

EntropicAngel wrote...

You may not have read through, crazy--as far as we know, there will NOT be level scaling (or little scaling--I don't recall the exact quote).

I did and I said "if."

Just adding more to the discussion.

[Wulfram]

EntropicAngel wrote...

It's only absurd in the execution--the idea of it is based in reality.

Only if you consider the reality to be very far from the execution.

I mean, if you started at level 10, worked very slowly up to level 13 and then had to work incredibly hard to stay there, and our NPC companions, since they're all usually experienced, were already at the peak level their talent would allow, that might be defensible as based in reality.  But that's not what we get, at all.  We go from "I can cast a single spell and just about defeat large rats" to "I am the master of all magic, fear me mere dragons!"

Largely because that's a lot more fun a way to do it, and a lot easier for new players to get a handle on, though I think we can definitely stand to flatten out the power curve, particularly with open world and no level scaling

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Then again, it is a bit of a conceit that the final boss must always be as powerful/more powerful than the party, isn't it?

In
war, for example, the final battle is often the point when the enemy is
the weakest after attacking them relentlessly through the course of the
entire conflict. 

Well, you could certainly write a story where a not especially tough final boss made sense.  But RPGs usually aren't that - it's an Archdemon or something, and the story says it's about the toughest thing out there

And from a game point of view, it's nice to have a final supreme challenge to test your skills.

Modifié par Wulfram, 16 août 2013 - 06:02 .