Uplifting in general is not bad. The protheans uplifted the asari for example. It's how the situation is handled that lead to the conflict being the salarians fault. The krogan were a bad decision.
who's to blame #3
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garrus and ashley squad
, août 14 2013 05:43
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#27
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Posté 14 août 2013 - 07:49
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If uplift is the original problem, then you can't blame the Salarians. It was the Rachni who were uplifted first. After that point, it just becomes an arms race of various uplift measures.
To take it even further, this is the whole mess of the Mass Effect story in general. The Leviathan and Reapers tried turning the Milky Way into their own personal petri dish long ago. Everything's been an experiment since then. The ultimate victory at the end of this story is to maybe finally give nature a chance to play god, instead of these various races (of course, picking Synthesis or Control just reinforces the old routine).
To take it even further, this is the whole mess of the Mass Effect story in general. The Leviathan and Reapers tried turning the Milky Way into their own personal petri dish long ago. Everything's been an experiment since then. The ultimate victory at the end of this story is to maybe finally give nature a chance to play god, instead of these various races (of course, picking Synthesis or Control just reinforces the old routine).
Modifié par StreetMagic, 14 août 2013 - 07:53 .
#28
Posté 14 août 2013 - 09:09
3DandBeyond
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The Protheans then the Salarians then everyone else and then the Krogan.
The Protheans uplifted and used the Rachni as warriors. The Rachni later on became isolationists until a Salarian found a way to open the relay to Rachni space. The Krogan were advanced beyond their readiness and then cast aside once their usefulness was done. It's like giving a child too much too soon and then telling them to "deal with it" on their own. They don't have the tools for that. You might want to hold a child responsible but if you haven't helped them to learn to deal with their situation, then how can you?
When the Krogans were advanced they were obviously more powerful and bored, since they did not work toward advancement. It wasn't like they instantly had some sort of amazing knowledge to go along with all that. They were uplifted specifically for the same things the Rachni first were. And then they started to breed a lot. Well I guess they had to find some way to handle the boredom. But no one ever really tried to work with them or help them deal with over-population and conflict. Instead they sought to control them by inserting something into their bodies which was having the effect of totally destroying them. Amazing, in one fell swoop the Krogan exemplify a lot of what's wrong with you know what.
The Krogan do bear some blame but not most of the blame. Those that advance a race (or say create a life or a group of people) bear responsibility for what they've done. And that means you don't just use them and then abandon them and then get mad when they have a problem and decide not to help them with the problem YOU created.
The galaxy should have tried hard to help the Krogan deal with their problems. Instead, they were afraid of what they'd done in advancing them, perhaps even guilty at how they'd used the Krogan to fight the Rachni and then dumped them, and decided not to simply wipe them out, but created the genophage that really was killing them.
And if you'd been treated like the Krogan, with no real help, I defy you to not be aggressive and hostile and resentful.
The Protheans uplifted and used the Rachni as warriors. The Rachni later on became isolationists until a Salarian found a way to open the relay to Rachni space. The Krogan were advanced beyond their readiness and then cast aside once their usefulness was done. It's like giving a child too much too soon and then telling them to "deal with it" on their own. They don't have the tools for that. You might want to hold a child responsible but if you haven't helped them to learn to deal with their situation, then how can you?
When the Krogans were advanced they were obviously more powerful and bored, since they did not work toward advancement. It wasn't like they instantly had some sort of amazing knowledge to go along with all that. They were uplifted specifically for the same things the Rachni first were. And then they started to breed a lot. Well I guess they had to find some way to handle the boredom. But no one ever really tried to work with them or help them deal with over-population and conflict. Instead they sought to control them by inserting something into their bodies which was having the effect of totally destroying them. Amazing, in one fell swoop the Krogan exemplify a lot of what's wrong with you know what.
The Krogan do bear some blame but not most of the blame. Those that advance a race (or say create a life or a group of people) bear responsibility for what they've done. And that means you don't just use them and then abandon them and then get mad when they have a problem and decide not to help them with the problem YOU created.
The galaxy should have tried hard to help the Krogan deal with their problems. Instead, they were afraid of what they'd done in advancing them, perhaps even guilty at how they'd used the Krogan to fight the Rachni and then dumped them, and decided not to simply wipe them out, but created the genophage that really was killing them.
And if you'd been treated like the Krogan, with no real help, I defy you to not be aggressive and hostile and resentful.
Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 14 août 2013 - 09:13 .
#29
Posté 14 août 2013 - 09:17
Jukaga
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The Krogan weren't genophaged because of what they might do, it was from what they were doing at the time; conquering Asari worlds, besieging Palaven. You make it sound like they are the victims here. And the Genophage didn't even come close to threatening them with genocide, according to EDI there are 2 billion females on Tuchanka alone before the cure.
#30
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Posté 14 août 2013 - 09:23
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Jukaga wrote...
The Krogan weren't genophaged because of what they might do, it was from what they were doing at the time; conquering Asari worlds, besieging Palaven. You make it sound like they are the victims here. And the Genophage didn't even come close to threatening them with genocide, according to EDI there are 2 billion females on Tuchanka alone before the cure.
They starting doing that because everyone expected them to bend over and accept whatever was doled out to them. No one knew how to handle a post Rachni Krogran expansion. They didn't want to give in to Krogan demands, and the Krogan didn't want to be considered dispensable, second rate citizens. The Krogan took the obvious route - "Oh wait.. we don't have to 'talk'. This is retarded. We're completely capable of kicking everyone's asses instead."
I still think the Genophage was the best way to handle that, but the problem goes back further than all of this. There's a domino effect in the galaxy caused by various Uplift measures, going back to the Protheans, and then ultimately even the Leviathan. The real "problem" is that the entire galactic ecosystem is FUBAR. The only thing to do now is try and get it back at square one. Or wipe out the rachni and Krogan, more or less.
Modifié par StreetMagic, 14 août 2013 - 09:26 .
#31
Posté 14 août 2013 - 09:37
Br3admax
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Most krogan female are treated like property, so I doubt that they even leave the homeworld.Jukaga wrote...
The Krogan weren't genophaged because of what they might do, it was from what they were doing at the time; conquering Asari worlds, besieging Palaven. You make it sound like they are the victims here. And the Genophage didn't even come close to threatening them with genocide, according to EDI there are 2 billion females on Tuchanka alone before the cure.
I have to agree though, the krogan are not dying out because of the genophage. They are dying out because they tried to continue their past actions underneath it. They live a high mortality lifestyle.
#32
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Posté 14 août 2013 - 09:45
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Br3ad wrote...
They are dying out because they tried to continue their past actions underneath it. They live a high mortality lifestyle.
This is why I liked the Grunt storyline. Unfortunately, they didn't do much with it. Both Okeer and some of the dialogue from the Shaman in ME2 seemed like stark contrasts to Urdnot Wrex. They believed it was better to actually up the ante in violence and destruction - the Krogan who would be left standing would be all the more stronger, and fit to carry the race to the next step. It's tragic, but at the time, hilarious. "We'll be saved by blowing up even more sh!t" is what it amounts to. I was more curious to see how this would pan out more than siding with Wrex. Wrex's ambitions are admirable, but also predictable.
Modifié par StreetMagic, 14 août 2013 - 09:46 .
#33
Posté 14 août 2013 - 09:53
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Jukaga wrote...
The Krogan weren't genophaged because of what they might do, it was from what they were doing at the time; conquering Asari worlds, besieging Palaven. You make it sound like they are the victims here. And the Genophage didn't even come close to threatening them with genocide, according to EDI there are 2 billion females on Tuchanka alone before the cure.
Of course not, but the fact remains it was actually kept in effect for what they might do in the future and it did have the effect of killing them culturally and morally. Wrex makes it clear in ME1 that the Krogan were a lost race, I don't care what EDI says. And 2 billion females that basically aren't given birth to many live children and that have absent males really aren't going to sustain the population for long.
This still does not mitigate the fact that others set these things in motion and so I go back to the original question of who is to blame. The Krogan did have some intelligence but they lacked the tools and any sort of help in becoming a truly advanced race. It's why the story of Wrex was rather moving. He had the heart that others of his race were lacking because they'd never been given a reason for it. They were treated like dirt on the shoe. Honored at one time for helping with the Rachni and then left on their own. They were like children. Big, powerful, fertile (ok the imagery is sick), and somewhat dumb children.
Of course they're victims but they aren't blameless. Again if you have a child I assume you teach it right from wrong-you don't expect it to learn on its own. The Krogan were like some child that a couple has in order to get a kidney for a sick sibling. And then once the kidney is found to be a match and is transplanted, the couple throws the kid out on the street and says, "see ya later". Tell me what you think could happen. Either the kid will die or the kid will survive and might get help from others (no one helped the Krogan), or the kid might grow up hostile and want to hurt people. If that grown up kid is hostile and has kids and tells them that people will crap on them and then abandons that kid too then more and more hostile kids might be born.
#35
Posté 14 août 2013 - 09:59
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Br3ad wrote...
Most krogan female are treated like property, so I doubt that they even leave the homeworld.Jukaga wrote...
The Krogan weren't genophaged because of what they might do, it was from what they were doing at the time; conquering Asari worlds, besieging Palaven. You make it sound like they are the victims here. And the Genophage didn't even come close to threatening them with genocide, according to EDI there are 2 billion females on Tuchanka alone before the cure.
I have to agree though, the krogan are not dying out because of the genophage. They are dying out because they tried to continue their past actions underneath it. They live a high mortality lifestyle.
They have a high mortality lifestyle because no one expected anything better from them nor did anyone try and help them to become better. They were advanced, they were used, and they were abandoned. That's not exactly the recipe for success. And Mordin specifically says that advancing them created boredom and so they began to fight amongst themselves. And they began to have lots o' kids.
The genophage was a part of what was killing them because it broke their spirit. They lost hope, what hope they had left. They fought each other for females and for pieces of the planet and for anything they could because they really had nothing. It makes no sense to say the genophage had no part in killing them. It destroyed their "souls" because it said to them repeatedly that they were nothing more than cattle to the galaxy and that they could be treated however the "smarter" races decided. It showed they were not valued. And very few people ever wanted it cured-they'd washed their hands of the Krogan and treated them like your embarrassing, naked, drunk, angry, and ugly uncle Bupkiss. God forbid he have children.
Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 14 août 2013 - 10:00 .
#36
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Posté 14 août 2013 - 10:04
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The krogan were basically a nuclear capable digital/industrial society, in the same way we are now. Then some aliens came in and gave them the means to advance hundreds (if not thousands) of years. Do you think we'd handle it well if the same thing happened? I'm watching the news right now about Egypt. Humans can't even establish a moderately, not-entirely sucky government in most places in the world, without hundreds - wait, thousands - of civilians getting slaughtered in the process. We live in a world where greed is so rampant that the Top Two percent hold more than HALF of the world's wealth. Imagine if we got "uplifted" and suddenly got massive boosts in weaponry and technology, and we still held on to these crappy values and methods? We'd be no different than the Krogan. And anyone who didn't see it coming would be an idiot.
Modifié par StreetMagic, 14 août 2013 - 10:08 .
#37
Posté 14 août 2013 - 10:06
David7204
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I think the saying is 1% of people hold 99% of the wealth.
Although I'd be very hesitant to call that a result of greed rather than merely economics.
Although I'd be very hesitant to call that a result of greed rather than merely economics.
Modifié par David7204, 14 août 2013 - 10:07 .
#38
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Posté 14 août 2013 - 10:10
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David7204 wrote...
I think the saying is 1% of people hold 99% of the wealth.
Although I'd be very hesitant to call that a result of greed rather than merely economics.
Yeah, but I kind of like top 2% more, because it starts taking the upper middle class into account. The extremely wealthy aren't the only problem.
#39
Posté 14 août 2013 - 10:11
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What makes you think the wealthy and upper middle class are a 'problem' at all?
#40
Posté 14 août 2013 - 10:12
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It is easily the Salarian's fault. They uplifted the Krogan to a level they were not ready for, and if the Yhag are any indication, the Krogan would have been uplifted anyways even if there wasn't a Rachni War going on.
However, that being said, the Salarians are not entirely unjustified in their response. After all, the Rachni did seem unbeatable at the time, and the Krogan looked to be the only viable solution. After all, who am I to speak of cost-benefit analysis when it comes to genocidal war? After all, I sacrificed an entire species to destroy the reapers since I saw it as the only viable option, regardless of future consequences.
I believe the Salarians saw themselves in a similar situation, uplift this warmongering species to stave off genocide, and accept the consequences down the line. After all, it's either extinction now, or possible extinction in the future. It's a pretty gruesome equation, but they made the right choice.
However, that being said, the Salarians are not entirely unjustified in their response. After all, the Rachni did seem unbeatable at the time, and the Krogan looked to be the only viable solution. After all, who am I to speak of cost-benefit analysis when it comes to genocidal war? After all, I sacrificed an entire species to destroy the reapers since I saw it as the only viable option, regardless of future consequences.
I believe the Salarians saw themselves in a similar situation, uplift this warmongering species to stave off genocide, and accept the consequences down the line. After all, it's either extinction now, or possible extinction in the future. It's a pretty gruesome equation, but they made the right choice.
#41
Posté 14 août 2013 - 10:13
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You're right, the krogan were at least as advanced as we are now before the Salarians came (not exactly children). The Rebellions started roughly 400 years after the rachni war was over (it was delayed by granting the Krogan more and more worlds for some years). I think they had more than enough time to learn. The Council races were perfectly nice to the krogan after they beat the rachni, and then the krogan tried to conquer the galaxy.
#42
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Posté 14 août 2013 - 10:15
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David7204 wrote...
What makes you think the wealthy and upper middle class are a 'problem' at all?
Don't open this can of worms now. Stick to the Krogan. I'm here to make an evolutionary comparison with us and the Krogan, and not get into a detailed debate about our own economics. You want to disagree about the particulars, then knock yourself out.
Modifié par StreetMagic, 14 août 2013 - 10:16 .
#43
Posté 14 août 2013 - 10:37
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Barquiel wrote...
You're right, the krogan were at least as advanced as we are now before the Salarians came (not exactly children). The Rebellions started roughly 400 years after the rachni war was over (it was delayed by granting the Krogan more and more worlds for some years). I think they had more than enough time to learn. The Council races were perfectly nice to the krogan after they beat the rachni, and then the krogan tried to conquer the galaxy.
This.
I'm not denying the tragedy of the Krogan story, but they did it to themselves. Given their obscene birth rate coupled with MEU medical tech the Krogan would literally fill up every world in known space in a few hundred years at most. They were dealt a bad hand, no doubt about it. Wrex's insane decision to completely cure the genophage would be the worst possible outcome in a post reaper war recovery scenario.
#44
Posté 14 août 2013 - 10:38
Jukaga
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StreetMagic wrote...
David7204 wrote...
What makes you think the wealthy and upper middle class are a 'problem' at all?
Don't open this can of worms now. Stick to the Krogan. I'm here to make an evolutionary comparison with us and the Krogan, and not get into a detailed debate about our own economics. You want to disagree about the particulars, then knock yourself out.
Yeah keep that stuff in the OT forum, I hate it when good threads get derailed and closed.
#45
Posté 14 août 2013 - 11:40
Xilizhra
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What the salarians did was unwise, arguably, in terms of the krogan. However, they are not to blame, because uplifting a race is not a legitimate provocation to being attacked by that race. As such, the krogan are to blame, because they're fully capable of freedom of choice, being sapient beings, and chose to attack. You can't claim the heinous actions that someone commits to be nullified because of their "culture."
#46
Posté 14 août 2013 - 11:47
Reorte
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It's certainly a crying shame that these concerns couldn't really be put to Wrex and Eve.Jukaga wrote...
Wrex's insane decision to completely cure the genophage would be the worst possible outcome in a post reaper war recovery scenario.
#47
Posté 14 août 2013 - 11:49
Xilizhra
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And that would be our failure, one that we would own, and something like the genophage would be justified if necessary.StreetMagic wrote...
The krogan were basically a nuclear capable digital/industrial society, in the same way we are now. Then some aliens came in and gave them the means to advance hundreds (if not thousands) of years. Do you think we'd handle it well if the same thing happened? I'm watching the news right now about Egypt. Humans can't even establish a moderately, not-entirely sucky government in most places in the world, without hundreds - wait, thousands - of civilians getting slaughtered in the process. We live in a world where greed is so rampant that the Top Two percent hold more than HALF of the world's wealth. Imagine if we got "uplifted" and suddenly got massive boosts in weaponry and technology, and we still held on to these crappy values and methods? We'd be no different than the Krogan. And anyone who didn't see it coming would be an idiot.
#48
Posté 14 août 2013 - 11:58
Jukaga
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Reorte wrote...
It's certainly a crying shame that these concerns couldn't really be put to Wrex and Eve.Jukaga wrote...
Wrex's insane decision to completely cure the genophage would be the worst possible outcome in a post reaper war recovery scenario.
Yep. The Genophage arc, while really fun and compelling needs a third option; a genophage 'lite' if you will. No matter what Wrex and Eve say, not all Krogan would listen to them. If even 1% of the fertile females become soldier factories, the galaxy is in for a heap of trouble post war.
#49
Posté 15 août 2013 - 12:04
David7204
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I doubt that.
In any case, it's not as if the cure could be applied only to those krogan would are trsutworthy.
In any case, it's not as if the cure could be applied only to those krogan would are trsutworthy.
#50
Posté 15 août 2013 - 03:33
GreyLycanTrope
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Both are, the Salarians for jump starting the Krogans technological development, and the Krogan for being aggressive expansionist. No one has clean hands.
Modifié par Greylycantrope, 15 août 2013 - 03:34 .
