145 réponses à ce sujet

[Sol Downer]

LinksOcarina wrote...

lady_v23 wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

lady_v23 wrote...

Um... then how will you defeat the (surely) near invincible villain?  

Why does the game need a villain?

because it would be boring without one?? 

Is Loghain a villian then? Or are we told he is due to our disposition of his actions?

He is an ANTAGONIST. An antagonist is not inherently evil, but rather, their goals, views, stances, and overall actions oppose yours. The job is to overcome said antagonist and, good or evil, prove your convictions trump theirs. Every game needs an antagonist.

[Nefla]

I don't really care about the premise of a game, it's the details that are important to me. The characters, friendships, struggles, triumphs and defeats should all be well done and mean something.

[Taleroth]

LinksOcarina wrote...

Is Loghain a villian then? Or are we told he is due to our disposition of his actions?

Well, he was directly responsible for the deaths of a few hundred, if not thousands, of people simply because of nationalistic paranoia.

Historically, those guys are villains.

[Sir George Parr]

brushyourteeth wrote...

I'd like to know what you're supposed to do in a crisis, if not "gather your strength."

I'm being serious.

Well in the 1980s you were meant to read 'Protect and survive'. Thats how you dealt with a crisis back then.

[LinksOcarina]

Ultimashade wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

lady_v23 wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

lady_v23 wrote...

Um... then how will you defeat the (surely) near invincible villain?  

Why does the game need a villain?

because it would be boring without one?? 

Is Loghain a villian then? Or are we told he is due to our disposition of his actions?

He is an ANTAGONIST. An antagonist is not inherently evil, but rather, their goals, views, stances, and overall actions oppose yours. The job is to overcome said antagonist and, good or evil, prove your convictions trump theirs. Every game needs an antagonist.

Then an antagonist and a villian are not the same thing then. We agree.

So does the game need a villian? 

[Fredward]

brushyourteeth wrote...

I'd like to know what you're supposed to do in a crisis, if not "gather your strength."

I'm being serious.

You ask the bad guy an unsolvable riddle.

[LinksOcarina]

Taleroth wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

Is Loghain a villian then? Or are we told he is due to our disposition of his actions?

Well, he was directly responsible for the deaths of a few hundred, if not thousands, of people simply because of nationalistic paranoia.

Historically, those guys are villains.

Or patriots, depending on who wins or loses.  Since he lost not so much, no. 

Thats the funny thing about history, its interpretation tends to be more important than the reality, because we never have the full picture. Esepcially ancient and pre-modern history. 

[Sol Downer]

LinksOcarina wrote...

Ultimashade wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

lady_v23 wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

lady_v23 wrote...

Um... then how will you defeat the (surely) near invincible villain?  

Why does the game need a villain?

because it would be boring without one?? 

Is Loghain a villian then? Or are we told he is due to our disposition of his actions?

He is an ANTAGONIST. An antagonist is not inherently evil, but rather, their goals, views, stances, and overall actions oppose yours. The job is to overcome said antagonist and, good or evil, prove your convictions trump theirs. Every game needs an antagonist.

Then an antagonist and a villian are not the same thing then. We agree.

So does the game need a villian? 

This game? Yes. Every game? No.

My reasoning for this is because only a malicious force would kill millions, open a rift to the demon realm, and release said demons across the world to commit random slaughter. Only a real villain would do this.

[Taleroth]

LinksOcarina wrote...

Or patriots, depending on who wins or loses.  Since he lost not so much, no. 

Thats the funny thing about history, its interpretation tends to be more important than the reality, because we never have the full picture. Esepcially ancient and pre-modern history. 

We have a more full picture of Loghain than real history. And he never had a chance at being a patriot. He never had a chance at winning.

Nationalist dictatorships are fairly well reviled in the modern world. Crimes such as his are generally not romanticized as "patriotic." Civilized nations prefer to gloss them over. He never would have been a hero for what he had done, even were he to win. Which, again, was never in the cards.

[LinksOcarina]

Taleroth wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

Or patriots, depending on who wins or loses.  Since he lost not so much, no. 

Thats the funny thing about history, its interpretation tends to be more important than the reality, because we never have the full picture. Esepcially ancient and pre-modern history. 

We have a more full picture of Loghain than real history. And he never had a chance at being a patriot. He never had a chance at winning.

Nationalist dictatorships are fairly well reviled in the modern world. Crimes such as his are generally not romanticized as "patriotic." Civilized nations prefer to gloss them over. He never would have been a hero for what he had done, even were he to win. Which, again, was never in the cards.

I wouldn't say that. The fact that he can redeem himself is his chance at winning in the end. It saves his reputation really. 

Truth be told, if he was right then he would be seen as a hero. I actually did a peice on this, where the only reason Loghain is an antagonist is because of the framing of his beliefs. His nataionalism is so devout and obsessive it becomes his own hubris yes, but that doesn't necessarily make him evil or not a hero. His duty and patriotism was protecting the ctiy from old enemies, not new ones. That is where his tragic flaw comes in.

But Loghain is also a good antagonist for this reason. 

[LinksOcarina]

Ultimashade wrote...

This game? Yes. Every game? No.

My reasoning for this is because only a malicious force would kill millions, open a rift to the demon realm, and release said demons across the world to commit random slaughter. Only a real villain would do this.

And if it was no ones doing, and it just happened? What then? You have an unstoppable force that is villianous in its intentions for wanton destruction only. Thats what the blight was in Origins really, and it worked in that game. Dragon Age II didn't need that so it didnt need a villian. 

Since we know so little about Inquisition we can only presume thats the same M.O in the end. I will hold judgement until we see it. 

[Taleroth]

LinksOcarina wrote...

His nataionalism is so devout and obsessive it becomes his own hubris yes, but that doesn't necessarily make him evil or not a hero. 

Oathbreaking (to put it lightly) and slavetrading does.

[Fredward]

Taleroth wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

His nataionalism is so devout and obsessive it becomes his own hubris yes, but that doesn't necessarily make him evil or not a hero. 

Oathbreaking (to put it lightly) and slavetrading does.

Why so black and white? Yeah he did some pretty disgusting (slave trading muuuuuuuuch more so than the oath-breaking) stuff but he did so believing he was doing what was necessary to save his country and the majority of people in it. It doesn't excuse his actions, hardly (I usually kill him), but it should at least offer another angle from which to view them.

Modifié par Foopydoopydoo, 15 août 2013 - 08:39 .

[Taleroth]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

he did so believing he was doing what was necessary to save his country 

Lots of horrible, even genocidal, dictators think the same thing.

Loghain's strategy happens to be dumber than usual. He murdered or disenfranchised half the nation's military force to prevent an invasion. An invasion that was only suggested as possibly happening should they fail to defeat the Darkspawn. So what does he do? Sabotage the plan to defeat the Darkspawn!

Weakening the nation against the invasion while also fulfilling the condition for the invasion. If he'd just done his job, there would have been nothing to worry about.

If there was an ounce of non-stupid in the entire thing, maybe he could have convinced people to help him who weren't abominations, slave traders, and whatever-the-fudge-is-Howe's-problem.

The guy had the thought process of a mental patient. Nobody believes me, they must all be in on it!

Modifié par Taleroth, 15 août 2013 - 08:52 .

[Fredward]

He was a delusional, paranoid, overly-rigid old man. But he wasn't an EVIL old man. The intent was not there.

[Taleroth]

If you define "evil" as "likes the taste of raw baby meat," sure. But even Uldred had a point if you pretend only the ideal matters.

[MisterJB]

Taleroth wrote...
Loghain's strategy happens to be dumber than usual. He murdered or disenfranchised half the nation's military force to prevent an invasion. An invasion that was only suggested as possibly happening should they fail to defeat the Darkspawn. So what does he do? Sabotage the plan to defeat the Darkspawn!

Weakening the nation against the invasion while also fulfilling the condition for the invasion. If he'd just done his job, there would have been nothing to worry about.

But there was no way for him to do his job. Thanks to Cailan's glory seeking, brain dead decisions; such as charging against the darkspawn and losing the protection Ostagar provided thus allowing the army to be flanked, or fight on the frontlines or march South without all the nation's army on his back; it was pretty much impossible to defeat the Darkspawn at Ostagar. Saving Cailan might have been possible and it might even have prevented the Civil War but it would have costed even more soldier's lives and it would pretty much ensure orlesian armies inside Ferelden's border which is exactly what he was trying to prevent.

[The Spirit of Dance]

If it ain't broke don't fix it.

[AlanC9]

MisterJB wrote...

But there was no way for him to do his job. Thanks to Cailan's glory seeking, brain dead decisions; such as charging against the darkspawn and losing the protection Ostagar provided thus allowing the army to be flanked, or fight on the frontlines or march South without all the nation's army on his back; it was pretty much impossible to defeat the Darkspawn at Ostagar. Saving Cailan might have been possible and it might even have prevented the Civil War but it would have costed even more soldier's lives and it would pretty much ensure orlesian armies inside Ferelden's border which is exactly what he was trying to prevent.

This argument doesn't have any support in-game. Maybe Cailan wouldn't have listened if Loghain had told him that the Darksapwn couldn't be beaten at Ostagar with the forces available, but Loghain didn't even try to persuade him of that.

[Taleroth]

MisterJB wrote...

But there was no way for him to do his job.

There certainly was. Loghain never makes the argument that the strategy won't work, simply that it is reckless and might get the King killed.

And that's ignoring the three-to-four armies he prevented from joining the battle. That would have ensured the battle ended even more quickly.

Ostagar was a certain victory. Duncan said the strategy would work, despite it being a blight. Loghain said it would work, and he underestimated the threat so had less reason to doubt it than Duncan. Nobody disagrees with this assesment at any point, except maybe one half-dead soldier in a DLC introduced later.

Modifié par Taleroth, 15 août 2013 - 09:49 .

[Sylvianus]

Edit : Nevermind, this isn't the topic.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 15 août 2013 - 09:53 .

[LinksOcarina]

MisterJB wrote...

Taleroth wrote...
Loghain's strategy happens to be dumber than usual. He murdered or disenfranchised half the nation's military force to prevent an invasion. An invasion that was only suggested as possibly happening should they fail to defeat the Darkspawn. So what does he do? Sabotage the plan to defeat the Darkspawn!

Weakening the nation against the invasion while also fulfilling the condition for the invasion. If he'd just done his job, there would have been nothing to worry about.

But there was no way for him to do his job. Thanks to Cailan's glory seeking, brain dead decisions; such as charging against the darkspawn and losing the protection Ostagar provided thus allowing the army to be flanked, or fight on the frontlines or march South without all the nation's army on his back; it was pretty much impossible to defeat the Darkspawn at Ostagar. Saving Cailan might have been possible and it might even have prevented the Civil War but it would have costed even more soldier's lives and it would pretty much ensure orlesian armies inside Ferelden's border which is exactly what he was trying to prevent.

Yeah I don't agree with this.

While it may have been impossible to defeat the darkspawn at Ostagar, I don't think it was a tactically smart move in hindsight for Loghain to do. 

That said, he was again acting more out of hubris than out of logical thinking. What makes him compelling is that fact, because its not inherently villianous. The bits on slavery and the torture done by Howe follows the "end justifies the means" kind of Machiavellian philosophy. We have seen tons of characters from BioWare do that before, both heroically and tragically, such as Mordin, Saul Karath, The Illusive Man, Anders, and so forth. It's a common style of characterization is designed to give depth to the convictions of the character, and is a breeding ground for discussions like this which question the merits and flaws of their actions. 

[Rolling Flame]

Jerrybnsn wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

They tried something different and were raked across the coals.

There were other reasons why DA2 was received poorly besides not using the "War Assets" formula.  How about a short game barely 20 hours long, for one.

 

Uh... I managed to get 95 hours out of my last DA2 playthrough.