162 réponses à ce sujet

[Fast Jimmy]

krul2k wrote...

Do Asians complain if they cant play a white westerner in asian made games? just wondering ive never played an asian game but im guessing there CC represents Asians more than the westerner as ours does vice versa

im actually very curious on this now lol

In the Asian games I've played, it is more often the case that they actually make their character models look undeniably white in most cases. Which I've always found odd.

[sandalisthemaker]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

sandalisthemaker wrote...

krul2k wrote...

Out of interest why does there exclusion need to be validated? does every game that have humans present in them also need to have every race that is on planet Earth included

No. But most games don't anyway. 
http://tvtropes.org/.../HumansAreWhite

Which is a shame. I'm being honest here - I don't think that's right.

But that ship has now sailed with DA. The lore has been laid out. Not to say things couldn't be done to explain changes in the appearance or ethnicities of NPCs down the road, but making such changes mid-story without acknowledging it is a poor move.

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on the whole lore explanation thing.

[sandalisthemaker]

Nefla wrote...

krul2k wrote...

Out of interest why does there exclusion need to be validated? does every game that have humans present in them also need to have every race that is on planet Earth included

People want to be represented, they want to see people like themselves and feel like they matter, and when games and movies keep telling you you don't exist or you're a joke or something it can be disheartening especially for younger people that are still struggling with their identity. Just because something doesn't matter to you doesn't mean it doesn't matter.

This is what I was getting at with the whole "human element" thing. 
Careful. People will start labeling you a social justice crusader too.

Modifié par sandalisthemaker, 15 août 2013 - 02:31 .

[Fast Jimmy]

Nefla wrote...

krul2k wrote...

Out of interest why does there exclusion need to be validated? does every game that have humans present in them also need to have every race that is on planet Earth included

In North America, every race that is on this planet Earth IS included, it's what we see in our everyday lives. Yet in video games, movies, TV, etc...usually only white people are represented with the occasional token minority but they are usually stereotyped or under represented. When was the last time you saw a movie (not anime) that had an Asian protagonist? People want to be represented, they want to see people like themselves and feel like they matter, and when games and movies keep telling you you don't exist or you're a joke or something it can be disheartening especially for younger people that are still struggling with their identity. Just because something doesn't matter to you doesn't mean it doesn't matter.

Other games have set this type of lore before. The Ultima series was one, where it had characters of varying ethnicities as part of the general populace, in a way that mimicked North America, as you state. 

Bioware did not go that route with Thedas. 

The reason North America is a mixing pot of races and ethnicities, BTW, is the advancement of travel technology. Boats, and in this century, planes, have allowed people from all over the world to move and live in different areas. This does not appear to be the case with the DA world, where we've only encountered a few dozen Orlesians in the games to date, despite it being one of the closest countries with a noticeably different set of culture/mannerisms. We've seen even less Tevinters, and only a small handful of Antivans. 

I might be extrapolating too much, but it does not seem there is much movement between the different nations outside of merchants and mercernaries. 

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 15 août 2013 - 02:33 .

[Fetunche]

Asia, Africa, Europe etc do not exist in Thedas. Ferelden natives look white,Rivaini natives look black there is no reason why East Asian looking characters from an as yet unvisited part of Thedas can't be present in a major city like Orlais, but it would be good for the various different people's to have rich and interesting cultures and not just appear out of no where. All the races present in the games so far have associated lore I don't see why it's insulting for Asian looking races to be represented in the lore too.

[Nefla]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Nefla wrote...

krul2k wrote...

Out of interest why does there exclusion need to be validated? does every game that have humans present in them also need to have every race that is on planet Earth included

In North America, every race that is on this planet Earth IS included, it's what we see in our everyday lives. Yet in video games, movies, TV, etc...usually only white people are represented with the occasional token minority but they are usually stereotyped or under represented. When was the last time you saw a movie (not anime) that had an Asian protagonist? People want to be represented, they want to see people like themselves and feel like they matter, and when games and movies keep telling you you don't exist or you're a joke or something it can be disheartening especially for younger people that are still struggling with their identity. Just because something doesn't matter to you doesn't mean it doesn't matter.

Other games have set this type of lore before. The Ultima series was one, where it had characters of varying ethnicities as part of the general populace, in a way that mimicked North America, as you state. 

Bioware did not go that route with Thedas. 

The reason North America is a mixing pot of races and ethnicities, BTW, is the advancement of travel technology. Boats, and in this century, planes, have allowed people from all over the world to move and live in different areas. This does not appear to be the case with the DA world, where we've only encountered a few dozen Orlesians in the games to date, despite it being one of the closest countries with a noticeably different set of culture/mannerisms. We've seen even less Tevinters, and only a small handful of Antivans. 

I might be extrapolating too much, but it does not seem there is much movement between the different nations outside of merchants and mercernaries. 

There are already a wide range of skintones, haircolors, and eye colors represented among humans. Who's to say they weren't meant to be multiple ethnicities but were limited by the hardware available at the time? (and also the fact that the NPCs use the CC and are mostly not hand modeled) If they were meant that way (Like Isabella was meant to be black and yet looked white in DA:O and tanned white or hispanic in DA2) then modeling them more believably on new hardware shouldn't be a problem and shouldn't require any explanation: humans just have a variety of looks and races.

[Zanallen]

Fetunche wrote...

Asia, Africa, Europe etc do not exist in Thedas. Ferelden natives look white,Rivaini natives look black there is no reason why East Asian looking characters from an as yet unvisited part of Thedas can't be present in a major city like Orlais, but it would be good for the various different people's to have rich and interesting cultures and not just appear out of no where. All the races present in the games so far have associated lore I don't see why it's insulting for Asian looking races to be represented in the lore too.

And that is fine, as long as I can ask where they are from and they tell me and I get a little codex entry. Asian looking people can be the majority of humans on par Vollen or they can be from whatever the hell is above the Anderfells. I don't really care as long as they don't just pop into existence with no explanation.

As for CC options, that doesn't need an explanation as no one is going to comment on your character's ethnicity and you can headcanon whatever you want on where your character's family is ultimately from.

[andar91]

Maybe the desire for a lore explanation comes from being used to genetic features generally aligning with ethnicities?

I feel like I would want a lore explanation as well, but I'm not sure I mean what everybody else means when they say that (or maybe I do, I'm not sure. I'm kind of confused). All I mean is that we have not, to my knowledge, seen any people in Thedas with features that our seen in Asian people in our world (I'll use Asian features from now on, though it obviously wouldn't be "Asia" in the DA Universe; it's also important to note that Asian encompasses many different cultures, but that's another topic).

Anyway, I guess seeing Asian-looking people suddenly appear would be a tad jarring simply because we haven't before. If that's how the Fex look, or how people from the Anderfels or Nevarra look, and so on, then that's fine. When I say lore, I only mean that judging by what we've seen so far of Fereldan and the Free Marches, those areas are predominantly light-skinned.

Genetics could work differently in DA, I suppose. However, when asked about dark-skinned people, the devs (to my knowledge) have always said that there are dark-skinned people from Rivain--hence Isabela and Duncan. I suppose Antivans are rather dark as well, though I can't recall many of them. So if they link skin tone to geography (however tenuously), that leads me to believe that any Asian-looking people would likely hail from a specific geographic region.


And to the OP's point about the character creator--I totally agree. It would be awesome to have more options.

[Fast Jimmy]

There are already a wide range of skintones, haircolors, and eye colors represented among humans. Who's to say they weren't meant to be multiple ethnicities but were limited by the hardware available at the time? (and also the fact that the NPCs use the CC and are mostly not hand modeled) If they were meant that way (Like Isabella was meant to be black and yet looked white in DA:O and tanned white or hispanic in DA2) then modeling them more believably on new hardware shouldn't be a problem and shouldn't require any explanation: humans just have a variety of looks and races.

A valid point... but as I said, the story and lore have been expanded on QUITE DEEPLY in books, comics and animes. Drawing different ethnicities is not a legitimate technical limitation there. We've seen these media formats introduce new lore, characters, creature and group types. Why couldn't they have introduced a minority if the real reason was the game engine limiting it?

Also, Isabella is a poor example. She was white in DA:O and changed to be darker in DA2... but then in the World of Thedas book released this year, she appears to be white again. Again - not tied to anything technical related.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 15 août 2013 - 02:43 .

[The Hierophant]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_f09YP6bu4Vw/S_FnYP0RE6I/AAAAAAAAAvg/tl4GORZHUZA/s320/Cool+Men's+Afro+Hairstyles4.jpg



Bioware make it happen.

[sandalisthemaker]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

There are already a wide range of skintones, haircolors, and eye colors represented among humans. Who's to say they weren't meant to be multiple ethnicities but were limited by the hardware available at the time? (and also the fact that the NPCs use the CC and are mostly not hand modeled) If they were meant that way (Like Isabella was meant to be black and yet looked white in DA:O and tanned white or hispanic in DA2) then modeling them more believably on new hardware shouldn't be a problem and shouldn't require any explanation: humans just have a variety of looks and races.

A valid point... but as I said, the story and lore have been expanded on QUITE DEEPLY in books, comics and animes. Drawing different ethnicities is not a legitimate technical limitation. We've seen these media formats introduce new lore, characters, creature and group types. Why couldn't they have introduced a minority if the real reason was the game engine limiting it?

Also, Isabella is a poor example. She was white in DA:O and changed to be darker in DA2... but then in the World of Thedas book released this year, she appears to be white again. Again - not tied to anything technical related.

Isabela tended to be whitewashed when it came to promotional media for DA2.....
Hopefully that doesn't happen to Vivienne.

[HiroVoid]

If they introduce Asian looking people in the game, I'd personally go for them retconning one of the current countries than just having them come from outside of Thedas. Dragon Age is still a fresh IP, so I think changing some lore around to have more options isn't that bad of a thing. I still find it weird they decided to keep the whole hornless Qunari thing instead of just keeping that retconned since that means they'd have to do the model for both in future games if they have both in the same game.

Also, try not to just accuse whoever's opposing your argument to be a racist or social crusader. Some people want inclusion no matter what the lore says, and some people think it's important to have lore consistency even if they think it would have been better to have had this included from the beginning.

[Fast Jimmy]

The Hierophant wrote...





Bioware make it happen.

If Sho'Nuff was a companion in DA:I, that would be an instant pre-order for me.

If he was, of course, of Rivani descent.

[Fast Jimmy]

sandalisthemaker wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

There are already a wide range of skintones, haircolors, and eye colors represented among humans. Who's to say they weren't meant to be multiple ethnicities but were limited by the hardware available at the time? (and also the fact that the NPCs use the CC and are mostly not hand modeled) If they were meant that way (Like Isabella was meant to be black and yet looked white in DA:O and tanned white or hispanic in DA2) then modeling them more believably on new hardware shouldn't be a problem and shouldn't require any explanation: humans just have a variety of looks and races.

A valid point... but as I said, the story and lore have been expanded on QUITE DEEPLY in books, comics and animes. Drawing different ethnicities is not a legitimate technical limitation. We've seen these media formats introduce new lore, characters, creature and group types. Why couldn't they have introduced a minority if the real reason was the game engine limiting it?

Also, Isabella is a poor example. She was white in DA:O and changed to be darker in DA2... but then in the World of Thedas book released this year, she appears to be white again. Again - not tied to anything technical related.

Isabela tended to be whitewashed when it came to promotional media for DA2.....
Hopefully that doesn't happen to Vivienne.

Well, as I said - she was made white again in this year's World of Thedas (Volume 1). This year. Two years after DA2 came out.

I'm not advocating it, but I'm just pointing out that Bioware has been very inconsistent with her "race" or what have you. Even to this day.

[HiroVoid]

sandalisthemaker wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

There are already a wide range of skintones, haircolors, and eye colors represented among humans. Who's to say they weren't meant to be multiple ethnicities but were limited by the hardware available at the time? (and also the fact that the NPCs use the CC and are mostly not hand modeled) If they were meant that way (Like Isabella was meant to be black and yet looked white in DA:O and tanned white or hispanic in DA2) then modeling them more believably on new hardware shouldn't be a problem and shouldn't require any explanation: humans just have a variety of looks and races.

A valid point... but as I said, the story and lore have been expanded on QUITE DEEPLY in books, comics and animes. Drawing different ethnicities is not a legitimate technical limitation. We've seen these media formats introduce new lore, characters, creature and group types. Why couldn't they have introduced a minority if the real reason was the game engine limiting it?

Also, Isabella is a poor example. She was white in DA:O and changed to be darker in DA2... but then in the World of Thedas book released this year, she appears to be white again. Again - not tied to anything technical related.

Isabela tended to be whitewashed when it came to promotional media for DA2.....
Hopefully that doesn't happen to Vivienne.

The engines were apparently bad at rendering black skin color, so that's a fault with that.  I(and I actually think the majority who played DA2) simply saw her as a tanned white woman.  Heck, even in the recent DA comics, she leans much more toward the 'looking white' status.  It's why I found it hilarious when I think Gaider tried to make a big deal out of an optional mod that made Isabella purely white like most people actually thought she was black in the first place.

[Zanallen]

I would love to have Sho'Nuff and introduce a monk specialization.

[What a Succulent Ass]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Also, Isabella is a poor example. She was white in DA:O

No, she wasn't.

[Palidane]

sandalisthemaker wrote...

Nefla wrote...

krul2k wrote...

Out of interest why does there exclusion need to be validated? does every game that have humans present in them also need to have every race that is on planet Earth included

People want to be represented, they want to see people like themselves and feel like they matter, and when games and movies keep telling you you don't exist or you're a joke or something it can be disheartening especially for younger people that are still struggling with their identity. Just because something doesn't matter to you doesn't mean it doesn't matter.

This is what I was getting at with the whole "human element" thing. 
Careful. People will start labeling you a social justice crusader too.

If I was there during the conceptual stages of DAO, I would be right there with you arguing for the inclusion of more minorities and different skin tones. That was the time to talk about "troubling implications" and social justice and what message Bioware wants to send, and what demographics they may want to appeal to, etc etc.

But as Fast Jimmy said, that ship has sailed. Bioware created this universe, now they have to play by their own rules. I personally think that Bioware's first priority should be maintaining the integrity and consistency of Thedas. If you would rather the universe rewrite itself to further your social justice cause, that's cool. We'll see who Bioware agrees with when DAI ships.

[HiroVoid]

Random Jerkface wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Also, Isabella is a poor example. She was white in DA:O

No, she wasn't.

Unfortunately, the lighting in the pearl somehow gave off the appearance she was, so it's easy to understand why people would get that confused.

[Fast Jimmy]

Random Jerkface wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Also, Isabella is a poor example. She was white in DA:O

No, she wasn't.

I hope you can understand mine and others confusion. As these two look comparably similar.

Yet one is a lily white ginger French girl and another is apparently black.