162 réponses à ce sujet

[andar91]

Palidane wrote...

sandalisthemaker wrote...

Nefla wrote...

krul2k wrote...

Out of interest why does there exclusion need to be validated? does every game that have humans present in them also need to have every race that is on planet Earth included

People want to be represented, they want to see people like themselves and feel like they matter, and when games and movies keep telling you you don't exist or you're a joke or something it can be disheartening especially for younger people that are still struggling with their identity. Just because something doesn't matter to you doesn't mean it doesn't matter.

This is what I was getting at with the whole "human element" thing. 
Careful. People will start labeling you a social justice crusader too.

If I was there during the conceptual stages of DAO, I would be right there with you arguing for the inclusion of more minorities and different skin tones. That was the time to talk about "troubling implications" and social justice and what message Bioware wants to send, and what demographics they may want to appeal to, etc etc.

But as Fast Jimmy said, that ship has sailed. Bioware created this universe, now they have to play by their own rules. I personally think that Bioware's first priority should be maintaining the integrity and consistency of Thedas. If you would rather the universe rewrite itself to further your social justice cause, that's cool. We'll see who Bioware agrees with when DAI ships.

I don't think they need to break the rules of their own world. As has been stated before, people with certain physical features (similar to Asian ones, for instance) could be from somewhere on Thedas or even another continent we haven't seen yet. I'm absolutely all for social justice, and I want diversity in fantasy worlds.

[The Hierophant]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

If Sho'Nuff was a companion in DA:I, that would be an instant pre-order for me.

If he was, of course, of Rivani descent.

Zanallen wrote...

I would love to have Sho'Nuff and introduce a monk specialization.

This would be beautiful.

Julius Carry R.I.P

[syllogi]

There is nothing in the lore about Rivainis being unable to move outside of their country, or interbreeding with lighter skinned people.  And nothing in the lore says that the map of Thedas we have seen is all of the world, or that people are unable to travel outside of that zone.

But lore doesn't even matter.  Even if the lore said that no characters anywhere in Thedas were darker than lily white, there's no reason why a character created by a player shouldn't have options to look like other real world ethnicities.  The player and their avatar are not going to be set, and no one is going to comment on the player's physical appearance.  

Heavens forbid other players want to have characters that look, even a little bit like them.  How is that going to hurt anyone's "lore friendly" game experience?

[Fetunche]

We don't know what racial features the people of Par vollen have or the fog warriors they could have Asian features.

[Nefla]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Also, Isabella is a poor example. She was white in DA:O and changed to be darker in DA2... but then in the World of Thedas book released this year, she appears to be white again. Again - not tied to anything technical related.

David Gaider said she was black and yet she often appears white or other races, so I'd think her fluctuating appearance could be used to support more diverse ethnicities. ex: this person looked generically white-ish but they were meant to be ____ so in the third game we're going to nail down their appearance. There was an Asian looking and a Middle Eastern looking preset for Hawke and family but they just didn't do it very well.

[sandalisthemaker]

syllogi wrote...

There is nothing in the lore about Rivainis being unable to move outside of their country, or interbreeding with lighter skinned people.  And nothing in the lore says that the map of Thedas we have seen is all of the world, or that people are unable to travel outside of that zone.

But lore doesn't even matter.  Even if the lore said that no characters anywhere in Thedas were darker than lily white, there's no reason why a character created by a player shouldn't have options to look like other real world ethnicities.  The player and their avatar are not going to be set, and no one is going to comment on the player's physical appearance.  

Heavens forbid other players want to have characters that look, even a little bit like them.  How is that going to hurt anyone's "lore friendly" game experience?

They don't have a problem with the PC looking different.  They have a problem with NPC's looking different without some sort of explanation given to them.

[Fast Jimmy]

syllogi wrote...

There is nothing in the lore about Rivainis being unable to move outside of their country, or interbreeding with lighter skinned people.  And nothing in the lore says that the map of Thedas we have seen is all of the world, or that people are unable to travel outside of that zone.

But lore doesn't even matter.  Even if the lore said that no characters anywhere in Thedas were darker than lily white, there's no reason why a character created by a player shouldn't have options to look like other real world ethnicities.  The player and their avatar are not going to be set, and no one is going to comment on the player's physical appearance.  

Heavens forbid other players want to have characters that look, even a little bit like them.  How is that going to hurt anyone's "lore friendly" game experience?

That would be totally fine. No one is this thread has said otherwise. 

[Fetunche]

I think the people are referring to in game npc suddenly appearing with hitherto unseen racial features, how people create their PC is up to them it has no effect on anyone else's game.

[Palidane]

Hey, I'd love for the Fog Warriors and anyone 'north' being Asian. That would be a cool, refreshing twist.

[Fast Jimmy]

Fetunche wrote...

We don't know what racial features the people of Par vollen have or the fog warriors they could have Asian features.

If they want to describe the Fez for the first time as Asian, then I'd be fine with that. But they would have to make such an explanation.  

I'm not saying "Bioware can't have Asian people - it doesn't make sense." I'm saying if they are going to add them, they need to at least have some plausible explanation. 

And, of course, you should be able to have neon blue skin and female sex toys for hair if the player so chooses for their own appearance. 

[syllogi]

Nefla wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Also, Isabella is a poor example. She was white in DA:O and changed to be darker in DA2... but then in the World of Thedas book released this year, she appears to be white again. Again - not tied to anything technical related.

David Gaider said she was black and yet she often appears white or other races, so I'd think her fluctuating appearance could be used to support more diverse ethnicities. ex: this person looked generically white-ish but they were meant to be ____ so in the third game we're going to nail down their appearance. There was an Asian looking and a Middle Eastern looking preset for Hawke and family but they just didn't do it very well.

From her creator: 

Sheryl Chee wrote...

Masako52 wrote...
as far as I remember, she's certainly white in the original game.

No, Isabela is not "white" in the original game. I'm kind of tired of people saying that she was always "meant to be white" or  was "clearly a red-head" so I'm going to set the record straight. Isabela was always, always conceived as a dark-skinned, Rivaini woman. 

I made the face for her in Origins myself, because Craig (who was implementing her) had a bunch of other stuff to do and I volunteered. Important characters have their heads reviewed and tweaked to make sure they're as close to perfect as possible. Characters that don't have a huge role to play do not usually get this privilege. So Origins Isabela shipped pretty much the way I made her. I gave her the second darkest skintone we had available. Then I gave her brown hair, thinking it would be sun-bleached. I think the reddish cast might be from the lighting in the Pearl. 

So that's the story. In DA2, she looks kind of Mediterranean. I like that.

source

So can people stop saying she's white?  She was not concieved as white, if any materials show her as light skinned, it's a mistake.

Rivainis are dark skinned.  There are dark skinned people in Thedas.

[Palidane]

syllogi wrote...
So can people stop saying she's white?  She was not concieved as white, if any materials show her as light skinned, it's a mistake.

Rivainis are dark skinned.  There are dark skinned people in Thedas.

Yeah. Anyone who pays attention to the lore knows the Rivaini are dark skinned. However, we have seen no evidence of dark skinned people that are not Rivaini. I'm totally fine with seeing black people in Val Royeux, but I would like to know what brings a Rivaini to literally the other side of the world.

Modifié par Palidane, 15 août 2013 - 03:13 .

[Nefla]

syllogi wrote...

Nefla wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Also, Isabella is a poor example. She was white in DA:O and changed to be darker in DA2... but then in the World of Thedas book released this year, she appears to be white again. Again - not tied to anything technical related.

David Gaider said she was black and yet she often appears white or other races, so I'd think her fluctuating appearance could be used to support more diverse ethnicities. ex: this person looked generically white-ish but they were meant to be ____ so in the third game we're going to nail down their appearance. There was an Asian looking and a Middle Eastern looking preset for Hawke and family but they just didn't do it very well.

From her creator: 

*snip*

So can people stop saying she's white?  She was not concieved as white, if any materials show her as light skinned, it's a mistake.

Rivainis are dark skinned.  There are dark skinned people in Thedas.

I wasn't saying she was white, I was saying she was black o.O I was using her often white-ish appearance as an example of how there might be other people who appeared white (but weren't) that just weren't modeled well enough to reflect it but they and others could be modeled properly in DA:I.

[andar91]

Palidane wrote...

syllogi wrote...
So can people stop saying she's white?  She was not concieved as white, if any materials show her as light skinned, it's a mistake.

Rivainis are dark skinned.  There are dark skinned people in Thedas.

Yeah. Anyone who pays attention to the lore knows the Rivaini are dark skinned. However, we have seen no evidence of dark skinned people that are not Rivaini. I'm totally fine with seeing black people in Val Royeux, but I would like to know what brings a Rivaini to literally the other side of the world.

Well, people DO travel. I think going THAT far into explanations for every character is a bit much. We know there are dark-skinned people that come from Rivaini; I think that's enough. Granted, there might be less in certain places because of...I dunno, circumstances.

[Fast Jimmy]

Rivainis are dark skinned.  There are dark skinned people in Thedas.

Again, no one is saying otherwise.

This thread really wound up focusing on how implausible another racial appearance such as prototypical Asian would be unable to exist in the DA lore currently.

Tones similar to people of real life Middle Eastern or African descent were talked about and put to bed in the first page of this thread.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 15 août 2013 - 03:15 .

[sandalisthemaker]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Rivainis are dark skinned.  There are dark skinned people in Thedas.

Again, no one is saying otherwise.

This thread really wound up focusing on how implausible another racial appearance such as prototypical Asian would be unable to exist in the DA lore currently.

Tones similar to people of real life Middle Eastern or African descent were talked about and put to bed in the first page of this thread.

You brought it up, buddy.

[syllogi]

Nefla wrote...

I wasn't saying she was white, I was saying she was black o.O I was using her often white-ish appearance as an example of how there might be other people who appeared white (but weren't) that just weren't modeled well enough to reflect it but they and others could be modeled properly in DA:I.

I knew what you meant, I just quoted the whole chain because you were the last responder.  I may have sounded frustrated because every time I hear someone claim Isabela is white I start bashing my skull against any hard surface in my vicinity.  It smarts.

[AresKeith]

You can tell some of the posters in here didn't read the OP

[Fast Jimmy]

sandalisthemaker wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Rivainis are dark skinned.  There are dark skinned people in Thedas.

Again, no one is saying otherwise. 

This thread really wound up focusing on how implausible another racial appearance such as prototypical Asian would be unable to exist in the DA lore currently. [/b]

Tones similar to people of real life Middle Eastern or African descent were talked about and put to bed in the first page of this thread.

You brought it up, buddy.

The OP was a short-lived conversation. Frostbite 3 can handle the renderings much better and the dev team has stated they want to do more characters with dark tones. It was very cut and dry. 

I merely added on the caveat that with this added freedom there comes the responsibility to the lore. 

[andar91]

sandalisthemaker wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Rivainis are dark skinned.  There are dark skinned people in Thedas.

Again, no one is saying otherwise.

This thread really wound up focusing on how implausible another racial appearance such as prototypical Asian would be unable to exist in the DA lore currently.

Tones similar to people of real life Middle Eastern or African descent were talked about and put to bed in the first page of this thread.

You brought it up, buddy.

I believe the implausability he references is only based on what we know right now. I don't think he's suggesting that Asian-lookign people, for instance, are implausible just because.

[Zanallen]

andar91 wrote...

Well, people DO travel. I think going THAT far into explanations for every character is a bit much. We know there are dark-skinned people that come from Rivaini; I think that's enough. Granted, there might be less in certain places because of...I dunno, circumstances.

And heck, with Orlais being a huge empire and such, it is perfectly reasonable to expect people from all over Thedas to be there (Qunari and Tevinter types excluded).

[o Ventus]

I wouldn't mind some racial diversity in the character creator. I don't think I would use it (every "canon" RPG character I play is a mildly tanned white male human), but the option being present is good for people who DO want it.

[Palidane]

andar91 wrote...

Palidane wrote...

syllogi wrote...
So can people stop saying she's white?  She was not concieved as white, if any materials show her as light skinned, it's a mistake.

Rivainis are dark skinned.  There are dark skinned people in Thedas.

Yeah. Anyone who pays attention to the lore knows the Rivaini are dark skinned. However, we have seen no evidence of dark skinned people that are not Rivaini. I'm totally fine with seeing black people in Val Royeux, but I would like to know what brings a Rivaini to literally the other side of the world.

Well, people DO travel. I think going THAT far into explanations for every character is a bit much. We know there are dark-skinned people that come from Rivaini; I think that's enough. Granted, there might be less in certain places because of...I dunno, circumstances.

I'm not asking for some super-elaborate back story. I just want to be able to ask them "So what brings a Rivaini all the way to Orlais?". If all they have to say is "Oh, northern arts and fashion are quite valuable here. The Orlesian nobility will pay tremendous amounts for exotic conversation pieces." that works for me.

When I said Rivain is on the other side of the world, I meant it. Rivain is in the far North East of Thedas, Orlais is in the far South West. There are four different countries between them. That is quite a journey for anybody to undertake.

Modifié par Palidane, 15 août 2013 - 03:21 .

[syllogi]

Palidane wrote...

andar91 wrote...

Palidane wrote...

syllogi wrote...
So can people stop saying she's white?  She was not concieved as white, if any materials show her as light skinned, it's a mistake.

Rivainis are dark skinned.  There are dark skinned people in Thedas.

Yeah. Anyone who pays attention to the lore knows the Rivaini are dark skinned. However, we have seen no evidence of dark skinned people that are not Rivaini. I'm totally fine with seeing black people in Val Royeux, but I would like to know what brings a Rivaini to literally the other side of the world.

Well, people DO travel. I think going THAT far into explanations for every character is a bit much. We know there are dark-skinned people that come from Rivaini; I think that's enough. Granted, there might be less in certain places because of...I dunno, circumstances.

I'm not asking for some super-elaborate back story. I just want to be able to ask them "So what brings a Rivaini all the way to Orlais?". If all they have to say is "Oh, northern arts and fashion are quite valuable here. The Orlesian nobility will pay tremendous amounts for exotic conversation pieces." that works for me.

When I said Rivain is on the other side of the world, I meant it. Rivain is in the far North East of Thedas, Orlais is in the far South West. There are four different countries between them. That is quite a journey for anybody to undertake.

Have you seen how far the Anderfels are from Ferelden?  How did Anders get there?  We never got a answer for that.  Some characters, like Sten, needed an explanation for why they were away from their home, but Rivain is surrounded mostly by coastlines, and it isn't a crazy idea that the people of that country travel.  

If travelling far from home were a strange thing in Thedas, that would be different, but we have seen plenty of people of different nationalities moving around, even in the first game, where we were told that Ferelden was a backwater country that was hosting a blight.

[Fast Jimmy]

^

Sorry, this just got me thinking of Men in Black.

"We're not hosting an intergalactic kegger here."

Zedd.