549 réponses à ce sujet

[MassivelyEffective0730]

garrus and ashley squad wrote...

Now that there are a lot of pages about this. can we agree that they both suck, or is that just me?

It's all in perspective. There is really no inherently better one than the other, no matter how you slice it.

[Made Nightwing]

Seboist wrote...

Made Nightwing wrote...

Why? The Council system just needs to be a little more inclusive and egalitarian and that would eliminate most of the problems people have with it. After the war, all three ending speeches would indicate that gPalactic co-operation would be inevitable. No need for secretive
societies. No more manipulation or double dealing. The end of the Reaper
War leaves each race brothers. erhaps it allows even for the end of war itself. Cerberus becomes redundant.

Strive for the best and let the dice fall as they will, it's worked out pretty well so far. The Alliance in particular has a good system of representative government. I'm not going to hold plot-induced stupidity against them, it was bad writing all around in ME2. ME1 Council actually had some good moments going for it. Their refusal to convict Saren was based on a lack of evidence, they otherwise assist Shepard fairly well (though being critical of his actions, he's the new guy after all). I liked what they said about how they created the Spectres to pursue the correct courses of action on their behalf. It makes sense, it's efficient, it's worked for over a thousand years. It just needs to be more inclusive of other races.

Yeah and IRL our modern world is a peaceful utopia after the "the war to end all wars" (aka WW1).

I've seen a lot of naive Paragon posts in my time here but this one takes the cake. Rofl.

As a history major I find your lack of context to be insulting. Allow me a few second whilst I school yo' ass. The ending to WW1 left the Germans struggling for whatever money and dignity they could find whilst the French ravaged their industrial base. Even then, Germany would never have gone to war a second time had the economy not collapsed, killing what hope the Weimar Republic had for the future. That is what caused WWII.

The Cold War was caused by mutual fear, paranoia and incompatibility of political beliefs between East and West. There was no brotherhood or common cause between Soviets and the West after the war was done. Add the new power of the nuclear weapon and conflict was inevitable. But optimism killed the Cold War. Once Gorbachev allowed slivers of personal freedom to float down to the lower classes of Soviet society, the War was as good as over. Those slivers of luxury and hope undermined the police state that was the Politburo's power. It was why the coup against Yeltsin failed (would Soviet citizens have dragged out and mobbed the crews of armoured vehicles ten years earlier?)

Nowadays, we're just back to fighting over incompatible beliefs, political systems, and oil. But, in the space after the Reaper War, what do we have? The krogan have Wrex and Eve leading them (in the best possible scenario), they know that a salarian helped cure the genophage, and they'll doubtless be well pacified by political offerings from the Council.

Frankly, if fast action is taken, and a new Council including all species is formed, and all efforts thrown into rebuilding, the post-war boom should be something special.

Paragon? Nay, common sense. Common sense, and not looking for pointless conflict.

[Xilizhra]

Frankly, if fast action is taken, and a new Council including all species is formed, and all efforts thrown into rebuilding, the post-war boom should be something special.

It can't be all species. The volus are still a client race of the turians, for instance, and weaker species would probably be maneuvered into giving extra votes to the greater power who has the most influence over them. I don't think it works as being wholly equal.

[garrus and ashley squad]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

garrus and ashley squad wrote...

Now that there are a lot of pages about this. can we agree that they both suck, or is that just me?

It's all in perspective. There is really no inherently better one than the other, no matter how you slice it.

Agree with you there but they both equally pissed me off.

[Made Nightwing]

Steelcan wrote...

Made Nightwing wrote...

Well, I always like to say that the first half of ME3 was 'Ashley was right about the dog and bear thing all along', but look closer. The krogan, the most 'violent and unreasonable' of the races come to the aid of the galaxy. The main salarian population (using Kirrahe as an example, not Linron) lends their support, as do the turians, the quarians, the geth, even the heel dragging asari chip in (eventually). And they're all there at Earth, not back at their homeworlds where they're needed desperately. Every ship they can spare. Cerberus methods didn't do that. Isolation and supremacy didn't heal the wounds between them. Shepard, by force or by persuasion, convinced them to co-operate with each other, and co-operate they did. I think that calls for a little optimism about the future.

The krogan come to help after their demands are met.  The quarians join after their issues are resolved, the turians join only after they get troops.

Literally not one government helped only because they could.  They only help after their own demands are met.

And yet (and I can't believe I'm arguing this point), they could have looked out for their own interests even after that. They had primary concerns vital to the survival of their people. Had the krogan not had the genophage cured, their losses in the Reaper War would mean their species extinction. And so with the turians and the quarians. But even then they could have backed out, taken care of themselves. They chose to come to Earth.

I'm not saying there won't be argument and conflict. But if there's a chance that the major species of the galaxy will never come to armed warfare again of their own accord, why not seize that chance instead of manipulating a phony peace that's bound to break down as soon as a Snowden, a Manning or an Assange finds out about it and leaks it all over the extranet.

[Xilizhra]

I should point out that the asari joined after the coup with no particular service done for them.

[Made Nightwing]

Xilizhra wrote...

Frankly, if fast action is taken, and a new Council including all species is formed, and all efforts thrown into rebuilding, the post-war boom should be something special.

It can't be all species. The volus are still a client race of the turians, for instance, and weaker species would probably be maneuvered into giving extra votes to the greater power who has the most influence over them. I don't think it works as being wholly equal.

But if the volus are given full Council membership, they would have the right to request turian aid as equals, not as subjects. That's got to have some appeal to them. Oh, and let species elect their own damn Councillors, not having some random junior officer selecting them would be a plus (seriously, what an ass pull in the first game)

[Made Nightwing]

Xilizhra wrote...

I should point out that the asari joined after the coup with no particular service done for them.

Whilst I have my own beef with the asari, I will support that point.

[Xilizhra]

Made Nightwing wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Frankly, if fast action is taken, and a new Council including all species is formed, and all efforts thrown into rebuilding, the post-war boom should be something special.

It can't be all species. The volus are still a client race of the turians, for instance, and weaker species would probably be maneuvered into giving extra votes to the greater power who has the most influence over them. I don't think it works as being wholly equal.

But if the volus are given full Council membership, they would have the right to request turian aid as equals, not as subjects. That's got to have some appeal to them. Oh, and let species elect their own damn Councillors, not having some random junior officer selecting them would be a plus (seriously, what an ass pull in the first game)

They have the right to do that anyway, provided they don't mind losing all official military protection from the turians. I don't think that'd change if they joined the Council. As for the human Councilor, Shepard only made a recommendation, not a selection.

[Steelcan]

Xilizhra wrote...

I should point out that the asari joined after the coup with no particular service done for them.

.  Saving the Citadel isn't a service for them?  They don't let anybody know about their little secret until they have Reapers landing on Thessia.

Modifié par Steelcan, 18 août 2013 - 12:30 .

[Seboist]

Made Nightwing wrote...

Allow me a few second whilst I school yo' ass. .

Saw a lot of Paragon wishful thinking blather but no "schooling".

I'm waiting...

[Xilizhra]

Steelcan wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I should point out that the asari joined after the coup with no particular service done for them.

.  Saving the Citadel isn't a service for them? 

Not in particular. It's a service for everyone.

They don't let anybody know about their little secret until they have Reapers landing on Thessia.

Keep in mind that not even Tevos knew about that until then.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 18 août 2013 - 12:30 .

[The Heretic of Time]

Steelcan wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I should point out that the asari joined after the coup with no particular service done for them.

.  Saving the Citadel isn't a service for them? 

Or saving their leader (asari councilor) at the cost of killing our own human councilor.

I think if the asari would have been in our position (killing their own asari councilor to save our human councilor), they wouldn't have done it.

[Sir DeLoria]

Let's just say, if the Asari wouldn't be such egomaniacs, the war could've been won much earlier...

[Xilizhra]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I should point out that the asari joined after the coup with no particular service done for them.

.  Saving the Citadel isn't a service for them? 

Or saving their leader (asari councilor) at the cost of killing our own human councilor.

I think if the asari would have been in our position (killing their own asari councilor to save our human councilor), they wouldn't have done it.

Killing a traitor is a service for all.

Let's just say, if the Asari
wouldn't be such egomaniacs, the war could've been won much earlier...

You're insane.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 18 août 2013 - 12:31 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Made Nightwing wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Made Nightwing wrote...

Why? The Council system just needs to be a little more inclusive and egalitarian and that would eliminate most of the problems people have with it. After the war, all three ending speeches would indicate that gPalactic co-operation would be inevitable. No need for secretive
societies. No more manipulation or double dealing. The end of the Reaper
War leaves each race brothers. erhaps it allows even for the end of war itself. Cerberus becomes redundant.

Strive for the best and let the dice fall as they will, it's worked out pretty well so far. The Alliance in particular has a good system of representative government. I'm not going to hold plot-induced stupidity against them, it was bad writing all around in ME2. ME1 Council actually had some good moments going for it. Their refusal to convict Saren was based on a lack of evidence, they otherwise assist Shepard fairly well (though being critical of his actions, he's the new guy after all). I liked what they said about how they created the Spectres to pursue the correct courses of action on their behalf. It makes sense, it's efficient, it's worked for over a thousand years. It just needs to be more inclusive of other races.

Yeah and IRL our modern world is a peaceful utopia after the "the war to end all wars" (aka WW1).

I've seen a lot of naive Paragon posts in my time here but this one takes the cake. Rofl.

Nowadays, we're just back to fighting over incompatible beliefs, political systems, and oil. But, in the space after the Reaper War, what do we have? The krogan have Wrex and Eve leading them (in the best possible scenario), they know that a salarian helped cure the genophage, and they'll doubtless be well pacified by political offerings from the Council.

We have the Krogan, who are physiologically violent and psychotic: they've pretty much been bred this way for the last 3 to 4 thousand years after their own nuclear holocaust. Wrex and Eve are anomalies to the Krogan, and best scenario or no, I, as Shepard, am not letting them expand. Simply put, I do not believe curing the Genophage was a good idea. The only reason I cured it was because I needed the fodder, and I was very sorely tempted to take the Dalatrass' offer. I believe that Wrex and Eve will not be able to keep hold over the Krogan for long. One Salarian versus the rest who's leadership actively tried to prevent the cure. That seems very lacking on overall contrition for the Salarians, and I think the Krogan are going to pick up on this. 

But as I said, Wrex and Eve are anomalies and in an ideal position of power. They can change the Krogan. Will they? I'm not hopeful to be honest. I certainly know they'll try, but I'm not about to also let them take as much territory as necessary to expand as a 'thank you'. I think a new homeworld is reasonable for them, provided they maintain their demilitarized state. As for being pacified however, we already tried that once. It wasn't enough. What will make it be enough this time around? Wrex will be in a bit of catch-22 situation. He is going to have to placate his people somehow, but I'm not going to let his people have arms and colonies to expand on thoughtlessly. I think the best way would be to incur some kind of population control. Hell, I might even make another Genophage to ensure it.

Back to my point on the Krogan, I do not think they have it in them to play nice, even with Wrex and Eve at the helm. Simply put, they're psychotic killers. They've had to be to survive in their ecosystem. But unfortunately, that's rather incompatible with securing a galaxy in peacetime due to their violent nature. They're like the Yahg.

[Sir DeLoria]

Xilizhra wrote...

Let's just say, if the Asari
wouldn't be such egomaniacs, the war could've been won much earlier...

You're insane.

Because the prothean beacon and data was totally irrelevant for the war effort, riight.

[Steelcan]

Xilizhra wrote...

Keep in mind that not even Tevos knew about that until then.

From the mass effect wiki on asari

Desperate, the asari government authorized their Councilor to reveal the
existence of the Prothean beacon concealed in the Temple of Athame on
Thessia to Commander Shepard in the hopes that it would provide the key to completing the Crucible, the galaxy's only means of defeating the Reapers.


AUTHORIZED

[Xilizhra]

Necanor wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Let's just say, if the Asari
wouldn't be such egomaniacs, the war could've been won much earlier...

You're insane.

Because the prothean beacon and data was totally irrelevant for the war effort, riight.

Because the vast majority of the asari race had as little knowledge of it as Shepard.

From the mass effect wiki on asari

Desperate, the asari government authorized their Councilor to reveal the
existence of the Prothean beacon concealed in the Temple of Athame on
Thessia to Commander Shepard in the hopes that it would provide the key to completing the Crucible, the galaxy's only means of defeating the Reapers.


AUTHORIZED

A. Is this passage sourced?
B. That's not contradictory to what I said anyway.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 18 août 2013 - 12:35 .

[The Heretic of Time]

Xilizhra wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I should point out that the asari joined after the coup with no particular service done for them.

.  Saving the Citadel isn't a service for them? 

Or saving their leader (asari councilor) at the cost of killing our own human councilor.

I think if the asari would have been in our position (killing their own asari councilor to save our human councilor), they wouldn't have done it.

Killing a traitor is a service for all.

Whether Udina was or wasn't a traitor is a matter of perspective, and whether killing him was a service to all is highly debatable.

Udina was only a traitor from the perspective of the other species. My pro-human Shepard didn't see Udina as a traitor at all.


Again, like I said, I don't think an average asari spectre would have done the same if they had to kill their own asari councilor to save the other councilors. The asari would probably watch passively, like they always do.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Made Nightwing wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Frankly, if fast action is taken, and a new Council including all species is formed, and all efforts thrown into rebuilding, the post-war boom should be something special.

It can't be all species. The volus are still a client race of the turians, for instance, and weaker species would probably be maneuvered into giving extra votes to the greater power who has the most influence over them. I don't think it works as being wholly equal.

But if the volus are given full Council membership, they would have the right to request turian aid as equals, not as subjects. That's got to have some appeal to them. Oh, and let species elect their own damn Councillors, not having some random junior officer selecting them would be a plus (seriously, what an ass pull in the first game)

Shepard is quite a bit more than a random junior officer man.

[Xilizhra]

Whether Udina was or wasn't a traitor is a matter of perspective, and whether killing him was a service to all is highly debatable.

He sided with Cerberus, an avowed enemy of the galactic community, to conquer the Citadel.

Again, like I said, I don't think an average asari spectre would have done the same if they had to kill their own asari councilor to save the other councilors. The asari would probably watch passively, like they always do.

Traitors are traitors regardless.

Udina was only a traitor from the perspective of the other species. My pro-human Shepard didn't see Udina as a traitor at all.

Which is why every human character other than TIM and Kai Leng also see him as such?

Modifié par Xilizhra, 18 août 2013 - 12:37 .

[Steelcan]

Xilizhra wrote...

B. That's not contradictory to what I said anyway.

You must not know the definition of authorized.  It has clear implications that anyone who isn't crammed up the asari's ass can see.

[Sir DeLoria]

Xilizhra wrote...

Necanor wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
You're insane.

Because the prothean beacon and data was totally irrelevant for the war effort, riight.

Because the vast majority of the asari race had as little knowledge of it as Shepard.

The Asari aren't the Turians, they are a direct democracy, thus they are at least partially responsible for the actions and decisions of their leaders.

[Steelcan]

Xilizhra wrote...

Whether Udina was or wasn't a traitor is a matter of perspective, and whether killing him was a service to all is highly debatable.

He sided with Cerberus, an avowed enemy of the galactic community, to conquer the Citadel.
.

.  One man's terrortist....