549 réponses à ce sujet

[David7204]

The Alliance is not 'foolish' for not believing in the Reapers.

Although it could have been handled and set up better, I don't mind Cerberus being antagonists in ME 3. I don't see a whole lot of other options for the humaniod foe that Shepard needs to be fighting to make gameplay exciting. I've heard the idea of indoctrinated mooks and don't like it one iota.

Modifié par David7204, 16 août 2013 - 01:47 .

[jtav]

Miranda was intimately involved with the science part of Lazarus, not merely an administrator. This is confirmed at multiple points in ME3.

[Dr. Doctor]

Cerberus, because they at least make the effort to support humanity on the galactic stage. The Alliance either spends its time fearing that anything it does will upset the Council or shipping it's citizens off to colonies that it can't reliably defend.

When "because we're not cyborg space fascists" is the reason the player is given for why they should support the Alliance it's a sign that they don't have much going for them.

[David7204]

I like the very ridiculous implication that the Alliance somehow forces it's citizens to move to colonies. As if they kidnap citizens at gunpoint.

Also, I'm trying to think of a single instance where the Alliance wanted to do something but decided not to do so out of fear of upsetting the Council.

Modifié par David7204, 16 août 2013 - 01:56 .

[wolfhowwl]

David7204 wrote...

I like the very ridiculous and stupid implication that the Alliance somehow forces it's citizens to move to colonies. As if they kidnap citizens at gunpoint.

Also, I'm trying to think of a single instance where the Alliance wanted to do something but decided not to do so out of fear of upsetting the Council.

If they aren't, perhaps they should be.

In Mass Effect, Earth is heavily overpopulated.

Modifié par wolfhowwl, 16 août 2013 - 01:59 .

[justafan]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

Of course they were extreme at times, but in the face of extinction, were any of the lines they crossed really that bad in perspective?

In ME2 Cerberus did not do anything even remotely questionable to oppose the Collector threat... but they are still terrorist. Shepard decided to take space!Bin Laden's word without so much as talking to anyone else. Unless Shepard is a fanatical Kool-Aid drinker to begin with that doesn't make any sense.

ME2 Cerberus stopped a Reaper vanguard

Strange, I must have missed that part... or are you talking about the human Reaper that wouldn't have been finished in time to matter anyway? The Collectors did not any point pose a strategic threat; whilst Shepard saving a few remote colonies from abduction is certainly admirable it did not affect the war in any way.

aquired valuable tech at the collector base

They did obtain technology, but you are pulling the "valuable" bit out of thin air (I'm pretty sure that making Grayson into a Reaper avatar is the only thing actually mentioned).

with all their tech and great minds like Miranda

Miranda is a good project manager who had zero scientific input on Lazarus. What reason do you have to think that the Crucible project was badly managed?

TIM

What does he actually do? He's got a vision in his head, repeatedly shown to make mistakes in the books, and is completely blind to reality. Unless you know in advance that he's right about everything you don't want him in charge.

Had Cerberus been accepted into the fold prior to ME2, with all their tech and great minds like Miranda, TIM, and Shepard's squad of specialists, we might even have found out about the Crucible even earlier and avoided the catastrophese and indoctrination of ME3.

Alternatively, if these people had not decided to commit treason and work for a known terrorist organisation they could have joined the Alliance war effort sooner.

1:  And the Spectre corp which routinely kills countless innocents to achieve a goal is any better?  And Cerberus appears to be only "terrorist" because the Council says so, what with them being tolerated by much of the Alliance brass (Hackett, Udina, and Anderson). 

2:  "Vanguard" in that Shepard destroyed a large reaper force as well as advanced tech, as well as killing a reaper.  Not to mention the ending shows Joker got some pretty serious intel on Harbinger, and the ending cutscene implies this info has to do with the Reaper assaule through darkspace.

3:  I should have said valuable information, what with seeing how a reaper is built, the fate of the protheans, and possibly a reaper factory.

4:  Miranda had technical input in the Lazarus Project.  She is a genius in both tactics and science.

5:  TIM still was on the up and up about the Reapers, the Shadow Broker, and Shepard's importance.  He also runs the most powerful non-governmental organization in the Galaxy by the end of ME2.  He is a good person to have on your side.

6:  Prior to Earth being attacked, what Alliance war effort?

Modifié par justafan, 16 août 2013 - 02:01 .

[David7204]

In some areas, probably. In others, I seriously doubt it.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Knowing about Cerberus in ME1.... Alliance.

Seeing TIM do the "Darth Vader" fist in front of the face about the Collector Base.... Alliance.

Knowing how much your Collector Base choice mattered? Priceless.

[David7204]

If you have any ideas on how the base could have been integrated, I'm all ears.

[justafan]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Knowing about Cerberus in ME1.... Alliance.

Seeing TIM do the "Darth Vader" fist in front of the face about the Collector Base.... Alliance.

Knowing how much your Collector Base choice mattered? Priceless.

To be fair, TIM was clearly channeling his good buddy Udina's ME1 Palpatine moment after "taking over" the Council.

Modifié par justafan, 16 août 2013 - 02:08 .

[The Night Mammoth]

My girlfriend is the Shadow Broker, why would I need either of them?

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 16 août 2013 - 02:10 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

@ David,

Destroying the Collector Base should have made Cerberus less of a force, but then they didn't want to punish those who made the "renegade decision" and gave the Collector Base to Cerberus.

Anyway, I have Master Card. I don't need the Collector Base. :rimshot:

[David7204]

I don't really see what that would accomplish. A few less missions for the player?

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

David7204 wrote...

I don't really see what that would accomplish. A few less missions for the player?

Basically that's all it would translate into. Of course that ends up punishing the Paragon due to the way experience points are allotted, proving once again that no good deed goes unpunished.

Of course that could be offset by awarding more war assets due to not having Alliance troops tied up fighting Cerberus.

I'd still have to find Aria's couch for her.

[Xplode441]

Can I have ME3 Cerberus? You know, the ones with the kick-ass military, space fighters, and cybernetic soldiers?
Cerberus all day.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

[quote]AlexMBrennan wrote...

[quote] Of course they were extreme at times, but in the face of extinction, were any of the lines they crossed really that bad in perspective?[/quote]
In ME2 Cerberus did not do anything even remotely questionable to oppose the Collector threat... but they are still terrorist. Shepard decided to take space!Bin Laden's word without so much as talking to anyone else. Unless Shepard is a fanatical Kool-Aid drinker to begin with that doesn't make any sense.

[/quote]

My Shepard did some pretty questionable things. He was a member of Cerberus. And he is taking TIM at his word; afterall, TIM is using my Shepard's words. It's more appropriate TIM took Shepard at his word - the only one who did. That's why I support him more than anyone in the alliance.

[quote]
[quote]ME2 Cerberus stopped a Reaper vanguard[/quote]
Strange, I must have missed that part... or are you talking about the human Reaper that wouldn't have been finished in time to matter anyway? The Collectors did not any point pose a strategic threat; whilst Shepard saving a few remote colonies from abduction is certainly admirable it did not affect the war in any way.

[/quote]

It was called ME2. This answer honestly isn't even worth the reply, so I'll just say you're deliberately minimizing the thread (how very council and alliance-y of you) to demonize Cerberus. It's the people like that that let things get to the state of affairs that they did in ME3. I blame the alliance and Council completely for much of this.

[quote]

[quote]aquired valuable tech at the collector base[/quote]
They did obtain technology, but you are pulling the "valuable" bit out of thin air (I'm pretty sure that making Grayson into a Reaper avatar is the only thing actually mentioned).

[/quote]

And you're disregarding what is valuable for the sake of demonizing Cerberus. It was valuable, but Cerberus used it irresponsibly and it came back to bite us in the ass. I'm not going to deny that. They should have known better. As for Grayson... If we learned something valuable about the Reapers and Indoctrination, what's the problem. Seems like a logical trade-off to me.

[quote]

[quote]with all their tech and great minds like Miranda[/quote]
Miranda is a good project manager who had zero scientific input on Lazarus. What reason do you have to think that the Crucible project was badly managed?

[/quote]

This is a blatant lie. Miranda was intimately involved and leading Lazarus from all levels. She was the scientific, adminstrative, and leadership head of Lazarus. As for the Crucible, I think it would greatly have benefitted from having Cerberus involvement, and especially with Miranda at the helm.

[quote]
[quote]TIM[/quote]
What does he actually do? He's got a vision in his head, repeatedly shown to make mistakes in the books, and is completely blind to reality. Unless you know in advance that he's right about everything you don't want him in charge.

[/quote]

He's the leader, the visionary. Granted, he does make mistakes. His management style is pretty bad to be honest: giving limitless resources and no boundaries to his cells and limited amounts of time typically leads to cut corners in the way of ethics. I don't believe he was blind to reality at all. I would prefer if people like Miranda (who was his protege) were closer to keep him in better control. Despite the final difference in opinion that Shepard and Miranda shared against TIM, I think that had she kept a closer eye on him he could have avoided indoctrination.

[quote]
[quote]
Had Cerberus been accepted into the fold prior to ME2, with all their tech and great minds like Miranda, TIM, and Shepard's squad of specialists, we might even have found out about the Crucible even earlier and avoided the catastrophese and indoctrination of ME3.[/quote]
Alternatively, if these people had not decided to commit treason and work for a known terrorist organisation they could have joined the Alliance war effort sooner.[/quote]

I call bullshit on this. The alliance would have swept things under the rug and put old grudges ahead of common sense and the galaxy would have been damned. Of course I'm speculating.

But so are you. 

My opinion is that the alliance, with all of their 'wisdom' in ME2, isn't worth serving. I don't care about them anymore. Treason? Hmmph. Those idiots almost let the galaxy burn through their blind ignorance. 

As for terrorists... I don't see Cerberus as terrorists. Well-intentioned extremists yes, but not terrorists. 

[David7204]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

David7204 wrote...

I don't really see what that would accomplish. A few less missions for the player?

Basically that's all it would translate into. Of course that ends up punishing the Paragon due to the way experience points are allotted, proving once again that no good deed goes unpunished.

Of course that could be offset by awarding more war assets due to not having Alliance troops tied up fighting Cerberus.

I'd still have to find Aria's couch for her.

I think we could do better about that. Particularly since this all hypotheticals and we don't have to concern ourselves with actual developmental resources available.

Modifié par David7204, 16 août 2013 - 02:39 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

My girlfriend is the Shadow Broker, why would I need either of them?

... Because she's an inept Shadow Broker?

Liara goes back to her digging for fossils post-war. I take her assets and integrate them into my new organization.

And frankly, some alone time.... for the rest of my natural life.... away from her will be much needed.

[David7204]

Perhaps you should take your fan fiction to the fan creations forum?

[Ravensword]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

David7204 wrote...

I don't really see what that would accomplish. A few less missions for the player?

Basically that's all it would translate into. Of course that ends up punishing the Paragon due to the way experience points are allotted, proving once again that no good deed goes unpunished.

Of course that could be offset by awarding more war assets due to not having Alliance troops tied up fighting Cerberus.

I'd still have to find Aria's couch for her.

Whoa. Slow you roll there, Julia. Obviously, destroying the CB should've been the one true path in ME2. Choosing to keep the base should result in a Critical Mission Failure due to lack of heroism in your decision-making process.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

Perhaps you should take your fan fiction to the fan creations forum?

True Story!

[Kataphrut94]

The one thing Cerberus had going for them was that they believed you about the Reapers. That's it. After that, they're an incompetent Bond villain group that's in bed with the enemy. Stuff 'em.

[AresKeith]

David7204 wrote...

Perhaps you should take your fan fiction to the fan creations forum?

Now now David, no need getting testy 

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Kataphrut94 wrote...

The one thing Cerberus had going for them was that they believed you about the Reapers. That's it. After that, they're an incompetent Bond villain group that's in bed with the enemy. Stuff 'em.

No. I'd rather the alliance and council stuff it. Their incompetence is what makes Cerberus necessary. They were pretty damn competent when I was with them. I, Commander Shepard, thought they were worth following. I think they were to wreckless and overzealous with the tech that they should have known better when using it.

[Kataphrut94]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Kataphrut94 wrote...

The one thing Cerberus had going for them was that they believed you about the Reapers. That's it. After that, they're an incompetent Bond villain group that's in bed with the enemy. Stuff 'em.

No. I'd rather the alliance and council stuff it. Their incompetence is what makes Cerberus necessary. They were pretty damn competent when I was with them. I, Commander Shepard, thought they were worth following. I think they were to wreckless and overzealous with the tech that they should have known better when using it.

What did they do that was competent that didn't directly involve you? Was it plugging a man into the geth and having him go crazy? Was it sending a team of scientists to a derelict Reaper and not checking back to see if they hadn't been brainwashed? Or, my personal favourite, getting the first ever cure for death destroyed by rampaging mechs without even bothering to save it? These are not the activities of an organisation I would trust with the future of humanity.