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The endings weren't bad, per se.


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#326
Steelcan

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Xilizhra wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

. they could still uncover numerous technological break throughs in not just engineering, but cyber warfare

If it's hardware, you can get that by analyzing the parts. If it's information, you can get that off of a living geth.

If I shoot my computer I can't analyze what its like when running.

The geth have so far been unwilling to talk with organics.

And this one saved your life. Additionally, the geth aren't too hard to put back together.

It shot two husks, hardly life saving.  Furthermore, one act of kindness is not enough to outweigh the collctive atrocities of the geth.

What happens when a geth is about to "die"?  They are completely useless afterwards.

#327
AlanC9

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Steelcan wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

So synthetics don't have rights because reasons.

OK. What reasons? What's the actual argument?

I never said they don't deserve rights, I said that giving them the same rights as a human is wrong.


Which rights shouldn't they have? Should they also have other rights that humans don't have?

And for both of these, why?

#328
Xilizhra

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Steelcan wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

. they could still uncover numerous technological break throughs in not just engineering, but cyber warfare

If it's hardware, you can get that by analyzing the parts. If it's information, you can get that off of a living geth.

If I shoot my computer I can't analyze what its like when running.

The geth have so far been unwilling to talk with organics.

And this one saved your life. Additionally, the geth aren't too hard to put back together.

It shot two husks, hardly life saving.  Furthermore, one act of kindness is not enough to outweigh the collctive atrocities of the geth.

What happens when a geth is about to "die"?  They are completely useless afterwards.

And yet, the quarians were able to rebuild plenty. Not to mention the standard idiocy about how all members of a species are identical, etc.

#329
Steelcan

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Xilizhra wrote...


And yet, the quarians were able to rebuild plenty. Not to mention the standard idiocy about how all members of a species are identical, etc.

What are you even talking about?

#330
jtav

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As far as Shepard knows, the geth attack organics every time they get close. The geth of UNC: Geth Incursion are explicitly not under Saren's control. The geth attack everything that enters the Perseus Veil. Legion is an anomolly, but it's still an enormous risk given what you know.

#331
Xilizhra

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jtav wrote...

As far as Shepard knows, the geth attack organics every time they get close. The geth of UNC: Geth Incursion are explicitly not under Saren's control. The geth attack everything that enters the Perseus Veil. Legion is an anomolly, but it's still an enormous risk given what you know.

It's no risk at all, given how heavily Legion is guarded. And in the incursion, the geth there were using husks; they were definitely heretics. Presumably they were a branch not working for Saren directly, but definitely on the side of the Reapers.

#332
Steelcan

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Xilizhra wrote...

jtav wrote...

As far as Shepard knows, the geth attack organics every time they get close. The geth of UNC: Geth Incursion are explicitly not under Saren's control. The geth attack everything that enters the Perseus Veil. Legion is an anomolly, but it's still an enormous risk given what you know.

It's no risk at all, given how heavily Legion is guarded. And in the incursion, the geth there were using husks; they were definitely heretics. Presumably they were a branch not working for Saren directly, but definitely on the side of the Reapers.

How about the ship that went into the veil, which is firmly "normal" geth space, and all got huskified

#333
Xilizhra

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Steelcan wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

jtav wrote...

As far as Shepard knows, the geth attack organics every time they get close. The geth of UNC: Geth Incursion are explicitly not under Saren's control. The geth attack everything that enters the Perseus Veil. Legion is an anomolly, but it's still an enormous risk given what you know.

It's no risk at all, given how heavily Legion is guarded. And in the incursion, the geth there were using husks; they were definitely heretics. Presumably they were a branch not working for Saren directly, but definitely on the side of the Reapers.

How about the ship that went into the veil, which is firmly "normal" geth space, and all got huskified

It went near the Veil, which the heretics are also near. The true geth definitely don't use husks, those are Reaper tech.

#334
GreyLycanTrope

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Steelcan wrote...
How about the ship that went into the veil, which is firmly "normal" geth space, and all got huskified

Geth don't have huskifying technology, only the Heretics did.

#335
Steelcan

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Xilizhra wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

jtav wrote...

As far as Shepard knows, the geth attack organics every time they get close. The geth of UNC: Geth Incursion are explicitly not under Saren's control. The geth attack everything that enters the Perseus Veil. Legion is an anomolly, but it's still an enormous risk given what you know.

It's no risk at all, given how heavily Legion is guarded. And in the incursion, the geth there were using husks; they were definitely heretics. Presumably they were a branch not working for Saren directly, but definitely on the side of the Reapers.

How about the ship that went into the veil, which is firmly "normal" geth space, and all got huskified

It went near the Veil, which the heretics are also near. The true geth definitely don't use husks, those are Reaper tech.

The log says it went through the veil

#336
Xilizhra

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Steelcan wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

jtav wrote...

As far as Shepard knows, the geth attack organics every time they get close. The geth of UNC: Geth Incursion are explicitly not under Saren's control. The geth attack everything that enters the Perseus Veil. Legion is an anomolly, but it's still an enormous risk given what you know.

It's no risk at all, given how heavily Legion is guarded. And in the incursion, the geth there were using husks; they were definitely heretics. Presumably they were a branch not working for Saren directly, but definitely on the side of the Reapers.

How about the ship that went into the veil, which is firmly "normal" geth space, and all got huskified

It went near the Veil, which the heretics are also near. The true geth definitely don't use husks, those are Reaper tech.

The log says it went through the veil

There's more beyond the Veil than Rannoch.

#337
Nightwriter

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The Mad Hanar wrote...

They were unexpected. Our solutions to everything would be to blow things up and shoot people, but the game ended with Shepard choosing how to commit suicide*. It's not really a bad concept, it's just a very unexpected one.

Sort of like if you got mustard on your burger instead of ketchup. Yeah, it would be unexpected and unwanted, but it would still be an edible burger.


*Except for one ending. That one is left to the imagination.

No, it would be like if my burger came with caviar on it. Some people like caviar, sure, but not me, and it definitely doesn't belong on a burger. There may even be people out there who like caviar on their burger, but again, not me, and I think it's unwise to assume, as a given, that I would like it on my burger also.

I might even have been persuaded to give the caviar a chance had it been served to me in an appropriate meal. That is to say, the ending of Mass Effect, had it been put in a different trilogy that actually fit it, might have been one I could accept or appreciate. But like caviar, I do not appreciate biting into it where it does not belong.

#338
AlanC9

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Greylycantrope wrote...

Steelcan wrote...
How about the ship that went into the veil, which is firmly "normal" geth space, and all got huskified

Geth don't have huskifying technology, only the Heretics did.


This means that the Armstrong Nebula geth were affiliated with Saren too. It was never quite clear to me how we would know if they were or weren't with him.

#339
Guest_Fandango_*

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AlanC9 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

So synthetics don't have rights because reasons.

OK. What reasons? What's the actual argument?

I never said they don't deserve rights, I said that giving them the same rights as a human is wrong.


Which rights shouldn't they have? Should they also have other rights that humans don't have?

And for both of these, why?


Are you going to offer any kind of answer to Alan's questions Steelcan?

#340
Obadiah

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AlanC9 wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

Steelcan wrote...
How about the ship that went into the veil, which is firmly "normal" geth space, and all got huskified

Geth don't have huskifying technology, only the Heretics did.


This means that the Armstrong Nebula geth were affiliated with Saren too. It was never quite clear to me how we would know if they were or weren't with him.

Didn't Legion say to Shepard something like, "We are all Geth, and we have not met"? That's the other evidence that the Geth in the Armstrong Nebula were Saren's. How long before the events of Mass Effect 1 did Nezara/Sovereign contact the Geth?

#341
mass perfection

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Nope;they suck.

#342
christrek1982

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The Night Mammoth wrote...

I hate mustard.


this

I hate musterd and if somone put it on my burger I wouldn't be able eat it. as for the ending the best and nicest thing I cold say about it is that it's disapointing thank god and Mr Fob for MEHEM.

Modifié par christrek1982, 20 août 2013 - 02:05 .


#343
Iakus

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The Mad Hanar wrote...

They were unexpected. Our solutions to everything would be to blow things up and shoot people, but the game ended with Shepard choosing how to commit suicide*. It's not really a bad concept, it's just a very unexpected one.

Sort of like if you got mustard on your burger instead of ketchup. Yeah, it would be unexpected and unwanted, but it would still be an edible burger.


*Except for one ending. That one is left to the imagination.


Of course the ending was unexpected.

For five years we werwe told "theese are your Shepards" and inthe final ten minutes we were told "You exist because we allow it, and will end because we demand it"

For five years we werwe told "Your decisions shape the story" Then in the last ten minutes we get told there is no way out without commiting a galactic atrocity.  And taking a principled stand just gets you laughed at by the game.

So yeah, I'd say these endings are unexpected.

But they're also bad too.  This isn't ketchup when you wanted mustard, this is finding a dead rat instead of your burger and being told "how dare you not appreciate the hard word the chef made preparing that dead rat."

#344
Xilizhra

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But they're also bad too. This isn't ketchup when you wanted mustard, this is finding a dead rat instead of your burger and being told "how dare you not appreciate the hard word the chef made preparing that dead rat."

Well, you wouldn't want a live rat.

#345
KaiserShep

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Food metaphors tend to go way into hyperbole territory. Instead of a pizza pie, the chef walked over to the table and laid a steamer on the table. Instead of serving me filet Mignon, the waiter gave me Hepatitis C.

#346
Bourne Endeavor

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KaiserShep wrote...

Bourne Endeavor wrote...
I have no idea what they were thinking with the Quarian/Geth conflict that runs completely contradictory to everything the Catalyst says. If anything, peace should never have been an option to emphasis this supposed inevitable conflict.


This is one of the things that bugs me the most. I have this new character spouting off its assertions, being used as a device to present this premise, but the story, up until this point, completely negates it. Of course, I can simply reject this and conclude that the Catalyst is full of sh*t and destroy both it and its reapers for good. I can accept the sacrifice of EDI and the geth, as much as I would prefer them to live, but the fact that you never actually see their demise is another failing, because now it's meaningless and arbitrary. This is supposed to be a huge galaxy changing moment, and it's horribly incomplete in its presentation. There's no good reason why this isn't shown, and only leads to people creating their own head-canon that the geth survive and EDI can be rebuilt.


This is what led me to believe they altered "Reapers die" to "All synthetics" as an arbitrary afterthought to correct a perceived imbalance; everyone would choose Destroy. My argument to that is if Control and Synthesis required Destroy to be sabotaged to convince people to consider an alternative. They need to rethink the writing because they're doing it wrong. Likewise, the lack of any presentation suggests a fear of commitment. Leaving it ambiguous ventures back to their speculation obsession and they can simply avoid the question entirely.

Based on the Geth's portrayal - staunchly sympathetic. I cannot see anyway BioWare could have sold their inevitable conflict theme. Hell, the narrative is particularly anvilicious in beating you over the head with the opposite message: organics are jerks and can't have nice things!

Ironically, that could be a motivation for the Reapers.

But the biggest problem with the ending is the serious lack of involvement with the final battle. The fleets arrive to Earth, and no matter who you gathered, the battle has very little variance. It would've been very satisfying to see the Batarians at the controls of a ship joining the fight, and the Hanar/Drell, and Aria's mercenary force. I wanted to see Rachni soldiers fighting the monsters on the ground, and the Blue Suns and Eclipse mechs marching against the reapers. You get this idea that there's a united galaxy, but once the Normandy descends to earth, that idea starts to dissolve. It doesn't help that there's some serious cutscene incompetence with the other forces, using puny weapons to fire at the destroyers. What happened to heavy weapons and missiles? Why doesn't your high EMS determine whether or not you get to see another destroyer bite the dust?


This became a recurring theme. We have these huge space battles, yet have to run about in cover shoot-y bits while the big battle is background noise. War Assets became far too much a clutch for the writers and I suspect laziness crept in more often than not. That one scene was hilarious, especially as I kept asking "why have we not mass produced Cains?!" Frankly, it felt like yet another message conventional victory was impossible, even if immediately after we shoot two rockets into the Destroyer's eye and voila.

The other day I envisioned a scene where Shepard could have some rallying dialogue with the races, in this instance, Batarians. Both species putting aside their differences could have been a wonderfully symbolic representation of the larger conflict. We saw it with the Turians and Krogans, which not coincidentally happened to be the best portion of the game.

The game needed to focus more on unity, but BioWare seemed more interested in shoehorning in combat everywhere.

Minor annoyance is being ground support for a Mako. Shepard is so close, and yet so far from its controls. Having the abilty to drive it one last time to fight your way through no man's land would have satisfied me a great deal.


Had never thought of that. It would have been a nice callback to Mass Effect, plus you could toss some James/Steve banter in for good measure.

Another issue I found with London especially, but was a problem all around. Too. Much. Brown. I appreciate London was unsiege and they went with a desolate wasteland feel, however you could depict that with color. Hell, Last of Us and FallOut are marveled by fans because of how immersive their ruined cities are. I would have loved to see background architect of London not just a very conspicuous red phone booth. It's 2186. Call me crazy, but I see those dying out by then. :P

Lack of closure for the destroy ending is also problematic, as the memorial scene doesn't actually make a whole lot of sense. I think this is due to the fact that the Normandy crash landing scene can't be removed entirely from the game, so the writers/devs had to work around a lot of this for the extended cut, along with the fact that the "Shepard Lives" reveal comes at the very end before the credit sequence. Leaving things to the imagination is fine, but leaving too much can be a pretty bad decision.


One suggestion I heard was that scene should have been the Normandy crashing on Earth, the squad fighting to find Shepard or having one last individual hoorah as a wave of Reaper forces descended on them. Your EMS then affects the outcome. Why they went the random planet route I have no idea - another failed attempt at symbolism I suppose. BioWare got carried away with speculation and it came across as lazy more or less.

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Random Jerkface wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

This one is a bit more descriptive of the Reaper's motive that thought worked best and actually fits the game we have.

If the reapers had to have a motive, I honestly would prefer that it were something simple and brutal, like The Killing Star, or that Harbinger were essentially Multivac.


I prefer the Cthulu method of having it be for a reason that organics don't understand, or can't understand. Those that try end up insane (i.e. indoctrinated)

It's better than the organic vs. synthetic plot theme that was already narratively resolved on Rannoch.


Aye. Sovereign's speech worked because of the ominous nature of the Reapers. We were presented with this... thing that harbored absolute contempt for all organic life. Everything we said was meant with indifference: "Confidence born of ignorance." Once they attempted to explain the Reapers, they lost their intimidating presence and gradually became a joke, what with the Human-Reaper, their sudden need for organics and etc.

#347
AlanC9

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Bourne Endeavor wrote...
This is what led me to believe they altered "Reapers die" to "All synthetics" as an arbitrary afterthought to correct a perceived imbalance; everyone would choose Destroy. My argument to that is if Control and Synthesis required Destroy to be sabotaged to convince people to consider an alternative. They need to rethink the writing because they're doing it wrong.


Do you mean the writing, or the design intent itself? They seem to have wanted every ending to be flawed in some fashion.

#348
Iakus

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AlanC9 wrote...

Bourne Endeavor wrote...
This is what led me to believe they altered "Reapers die" to "All synthetics" as an arbitrary afterthought to correct a perceived imbalance; everyone would choose Destroy. My argument to that is if Control and Synthesis required Destroy to be sabotaged to convince people to consider an alternative. They need to rethink the writing because they're doing it wrong.


Do you mean the writing, or the design intent itself? They seem to have wanted every ending to be flawed in some fashion.


Destroy was already flawed.

The relays were overloaded, and while they can be repaired, there was no certainty that it could be done quickly.  The only ones who knew much about them (the Reapers) were all dad.  Heck it was Doctor Kenson of Arrival fame who finally proved teh relays predated the Protheans, that's how little research about them had been done in two thousand years!

If Destroy was supposed to be "We'll find our own way" then the price should have been "Fine, you'll get no help putting the galaxy back together.  Figure it out yourself" rather than an aribtrary tragedy to "balance" things out.

Because if you need that arbitrary tragedy to make the alternatives look better, chances are, your alternatives just plain suck anyway.

#349
Reorte

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AlanC9 wrote...

Bourne Endeavor wrote...
This is what led me to believe they altered "Reapers die" to "All synthetics" as an arbitrary afterthought to correct a perceived imbalance; everyone would choose Destroy. My argument to that is if Control and Synthesis required Destroy to be sabotaged to convince people to consider an alternative. They need to rethink the writing because they're doing it wrong.


Do you mean the writing, or the design intent itself? They seem to have wanted every ending to be flawed in some fashion.

The problem is that the flaws seem so arbitrary, chucked in there just to have flaws so everything doesn't look too easy - except it is that easy because you've just dragged up a giant Space Magic Device. I suppose it's inevitable when you have something that gives you an instant magic win any downsides will look as contrived as the device itself. That's why I think it shouldn't have been an Instant Magic Win but something that would be enough to give enough of an edge over the Reapers that victory looked definite, but it would still be a long, hard path to get there.

#350
Hadeedak

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Mass Effect is like food: your tastes may vary from someone elses', but someone's always willing to tell you your favorites are a hideous mistake.