485 réponses à ce sujet

[David7204]

I fail to see how "Mac and Casey thinking more of themselves than their audience" has anything remotely do to with one medium vs. another.

Modifié par David7204, 21 août 2013 - 10:15 .

[dreamgazer]

Fandango9641 wrote...

Just listened to an excellent interview with David Gaider over on Koobismo’s YouTube channel and David made the great point that story ideas that might work wonderfully well for one medium (say a novel) might not work quite so well for another (say a videogame). Begs the question: were Mac and Casey thinking more of themselves than their audience when they cobbled together that wretched ending?

I don't think they were "thinking of themselves", but I do think they presented a scenario that plays out better on the page or through other passive mediums than in a videogame---especially one built on a degree of power fantasy. 

[Reorte]

Fandango9641 wrote...

Just listened to an excellent interview with David Gaider over on Koobismo’s YouTube channel and David made the great point that story ideas that might work wonderfully well for one medium (say a novel) might not work quite so well for another (say a videogame). Begs the question: were Mac and Casey thinking more of themselves than their audience when they cobbled together that wretched ending?

It seems quite likely. The key thing about a game is that it isn't (or shouldn't be) completely linear, so there should be scope for the player's actions forming the tone and path to some extent. However, IMO that's only partially the problem. The main one is, I think, that it feels like a certain tone and atmosphere was watned and it was shoved it in there even though it was trying to force a square peg in a round hole. There was probably an element of not caring at all if things made sense or not as long as that tone and atmosphere appeared - style over substance in a big way.

[Reorte]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

To be fair, the idea that every decision made in the series would shape the ending was extremely unrealistic in the first place. The end of the series was going to be restricted one way or another. Otherwise, they would've had to write 30 different endings and most likely cut a lot of content to make room for said endings.

I'd expect some not to matter at all (several choices were clearly small-scale things of little impact beyond the people involved) and others to add or subtract towards possible outcomes, like how Rannoch plays out, whilst a few large decisions could have much bigger impact on their own. The ones I originally thought would do that were the rachni, Legion's loyalty mission, and the Collector base, and in ME3 I thought the consequences of not getting the krogan on our side could be bad, even if it causes future problems.

[Iakus]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

To be fair, the idea that every decision made in the series would shape the ending was extremely unrealistic in the first place. The end of the series was going to be restricted one way or another. Otherwise, they would've had to write 30 different endings and most likely cut a lot of content to make room for said endings.

There's restricted, which is to be expected. then there's strangled, which is what we got.


I think it's right on the money that certain individuals fell so in love with their own word babies that they abandoned every other concept or possibility in favor of that particular narrow range of outcomes.

[Dr. Megaverse]

iakus wrote...

JamesFaith wrote...

I got my ham. And cheese. And crunchy vegetable. And they even give me fresh juice later for free.

But that food substitue you spoke about? Don't like its taste too much. 

You got ham

I got a dead rat.

And a lecture about how it doesn't matter what I actually ordered, the artistic integrity of the chef matters more than what I actually wanted.  So shut up and eat your rat or the galaxy dies!

HAHA. Perfect analogy for me. +1 sir

[Nashtalia]

drconrad wrote...

Food metaphors? I’m in!

BurgerWare is a quaint little out-of-the way restaurant, most famous for their customizable Shepard's Pie. However you like It: chicken, tuna, yams, whatever.

Over time the place gets flashier, but the food gets duller. Fun menu items disappear and are replaced by bland crap that you can get anywhere. You get a sense they’re trying to reach a broader clientele. There’s a children’s menu. You’re pretty sure the Mordin soup now has imitation crab.

There used to be an autographed eight by ten of Adam Baldwin on the wall, but now there’s a poster sized print of food critic Jessica Chobot (Who gave the new slammin’ jalepeno pretzel-bun x-treme sliders five stars out of five)

So, you go in on your birthday. You preordered reservations months ago. You order the Shepard’s Pie, and it’s just not as delicious as it used to be. There’s no seasoning, it’s undercooked, there are Kai Leng peas. You ordered “green” dessert, but the guy at that other table ordered “red” and it looks exactly the same. They both taste like vinegar. You are disappointed.

Others are disappointed as well, and the suggestion box overflows. Chobot’s next article calls you and this ‘vocal majority’ a ‘bunch of entitled whiners.’

After the backlash, they announce free extended cut seasoning will be sprinkled on the dessert. It improves the flavor, but it doesn’t fix the Shepard’s Pie. The Normandy Evacuation wet-naps don’t even make any sense.

You start to hear great things about the new menu over at the Dragon Age Grille, but they don’t serve Shepard’s Pie. Others say that the Shepard’s Pie is way better when you add Citadel Special Sauce, but it’s way too cheesy and it costs an extra twenty five percent of the cost of the Pie itself. In the end, BurgerWare makes the best food you’ve ever tasted, and you just didn’t get a satisfying conclusion to your meal of Shepard’s Pie and crêpers that you’ve come to expect.

But most metaphors don’t really bear close examination.

i can assure you, that this Dragon Age Grille will not satisfy me. so no and not going to Dragon Age Grille...i much perfer the Space restaurante' even if my burger was saturated with mustard sauce, i would still decline in consuming such food-gourmery. but, aside this misunderstanding of my order....i would still dine at the Space Restaurante

[Omega Torsk]

Ok, I'm not going to use the "crap" and "polished crap" metaphor (because, really at this point it's kind of a bitter and somewhat overtly vitriolic of a viewpoint). But it's not like ketchup/mustard, either. I like to think of it as ordering something and not getting what you thought you were paying for.

Original Ending

Consumer: Yes, I would like an Awesome Variety Burger with extra epilogue and consequence!

Biowaru: Ok! *they give you a box that looks like it holds said Variety Burger*

Consumer: Thanks!

*Consumer opens the box*

Consumer: Umm, this isn't what I ordered. This is a pile of salt with a headless Mario toy sticking out of it.

Biowaru: ...

Consumer: Hello?

Biowaru: ...

Consumer: Are you... are you ignoring me?

Biowaru: ...

Consumer: Hey, I already paid for this! It isn't what was advertised! I want what I ordered!

*One month later*

Biowaru: The meal reflects the artistic vision of the employees of this establishment. But if you'll stop sending us cupcakes, we'll ADD to your order!

*Biowaru takes the order back, throws a Jr. Variety Burger on said salt and headless Mario and gives it to you*

Biowaru: Here you go, we added to your order for free. Now go away.

Consumer: Okay, this is a Jr. Variety Burger with consequence on the side and an epilogue that I need to create myself, but it's covered in salt and you didn't remove that headless Mario.

Biowaru: ...

Consumer: Well... at least I can eat it...


That is my ME3 ending analogy! The extended cut; still not what I had expected, but at least it's edible...

[dorktainian]

Omega Torsk wrote...

Ok, I'm not going to use the "crap" and "polished crap" metaphor (because, really at this point it's kind of a bitter and somewhat overtly vitriolic of a viewpoint). But it's not like ketchup/mustard, either. I like to think of it as ordering something and not getting what you thought you were paying for.

Original Ending

Consumer: Yes, I would like an Awesome Variety Burger with extra epilogue and consequence!

Biowaru: Ok! *they give you a box that looks like it holds said Variety Burger*

Consumer: Thanks!

*Consumer opens the box*

Consumer: Umm, this isn't what I ordered. This is a pile of salt with a headless Mario toy sticking out of it.

Biowaru: ...

Consumer: Hello?

Biowaru: ...

Consumer: Are you... are you ignoring me?

Biowaru: ...

Consumer: Hey, I already paid for this! It isn't what was advertised! I want what I ordered!

*One month later*

Biowaru: The meal reflects the artistic vision of the employees of this establishment. But if you'll stop sending us cupcakes, we'll ADD to your order!

*Biowaru takes the order back, throws a Jr. Variety Burger on said salt and headless Mario and gives it to you*

Biowaru: Here you go, we added to your order for free. Now go away.

Consumer: Okay, this is a Jr. Variety Burger with consequence on the side and an epilogue that I need to create myself, but it's covered in salt and you didn't remove that headless Mario.

Biowaru: ...

Consumer: Well... at least I can eat it...


That is my ME3 ending analogy! The extended cut; still not what I had expected, but at least it's edible...

i equate the EC to eating a curry.

it goes in and comes out exactly the same....



the EC didnt change anything, and raised more questions than it answered.

reasons why extreme theorists sprung up is because that is exactly what bioware wanted.  speculation for everyone.  but analysis aside, we have to remember that even if certain theories are correct, the ending at face value is poor.  it should also be noted that imo if you are ending a story there is no way you can even try to pull off the different enings bulls..t.   the ending should have been a singular ending that made sense based on the narrative.

[David7204]

If the ending had been written according to what players supposedly want on the BSN, it would have been crap.

Sometimes giving people what they're asking for is a good idea. Sometimes it's a horrible idea. Writing a good story is nowhere near as simple as "Just give the players want they want!!!!!" as you seem to be pushing.

By the way, given that Shepard's primary skill is killing people, it's a bit hypocritical to complain about violence in the ending.

Modifié par David7204, 22 août 2013 - 11:10 .

[Reorte]

Fandango9641 wrote...

Aye, the incongruity of that ending really is jarring isn't it? And that to say nothing of the wisdom of their turning Mass Effect into a celebration of violence, ignorance and racism *sigh*. Yep - to say that Mac and Casey should have done better job of concluding Shep's story is to say the very least of it as far as I'm concerned. Honestly, what a horrific conclusion to such a wonderful story. Nice one!

The worrying thing is that it wouldn't surprise me if it didn't even occur to them that that was the message it gave. Everything about it screams "atmosphere and not thought whatsoever given to what anything actually said."

[shepskisaac]

Fandango9641 wrote...

That said, Bioware did have the opportunity to undo the mad work of Mac and Casey with the EC but only succeeded in making things worse.

EC made the ending worse ... ? 

[shepskisaac]

Fandango9641 wrote...

Aye, those EC slides present the consequences of each solution as being largely positive. Why no post Destroy slide for the slaughtered Geth for example? Not a fan of the EC I'm afraid.

Go for low/mid EMS Destroy and you'll have a rather depressing EC ending. 

Honestly though, it's just sily to me to say EC made the endings worse. Multiple plotholes were patched (even if not all), the visual presentation actually differes now between the endings (which is didn't at all almost in the original version), consequences/fate of multiple factions, characters and actions are presented in slides, the character of the Catalyst and the Reaper motivations are better explained. It's not even a matter of opinion honestly, EC is factually better. EVen if you think the original ending is total crap, the EC is at LEAST a tad less total crap. 

[Arcian]

I see the Dead Horse salesman just made his round through the BSN.

[shepskisaac]

Arcian wrote...
I see the Dead Horse salesman just made his round through the BSN.

I see another useless post was just added to BSN

[Br3admax]

IsaacShep wrote...

Arcian wrote...
I see the Dead Horse salesman just made his round through the BSN.

I see another useless post was just added to BSN

I see another user ironically adds a useless post about a useless post.

Anyway, as much as it would be fun to argue over sythetic rights here, I don't think that would really contribute to the endings in anyway. See a bunch of platforms lying on the ground would not mean anything.