485 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

Random Jerkface wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I did. It was painful.

...What, the li'l Marauder Shields joke?

Well, the original joke wasn't particularly funny, it grew less funny the more it was repeated, and I don't like the comic that it spawned at all.

[MegaSovereign]

General Slotts wrote...

Synthesis doesn't belong in Mass Effect, imo. Trans-humanism was not even a secondary theme, let alone something to be pushed to the forefront. Everyone expected some type of Destroy and Control endings, but more importantly most wanted a meaningful final mission.

Maybe the ending framework was solid, but its execution fails on almost every level. The framework is just Deus Ex though, which could have been fine I guess. The Catalyst doesn't help any of it either.

Oh I disagree.....Synthesis and trans-humanism was a pretty big theme......However the completely positive outcome of Synthesis was unforeseen.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Random Jerkface wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

This one is a bit more descriptive of the Reaper's motive that thought worked best and actually fits the game we have.

If the reapers had to have a motive, I honestly would prefer that it were something simple and brutal, like The Killing Star, or that Harbinger were essentially Multivac.

I prefer the Cthulu method of having it be for a reason that organics don't understand, or can't understand. Those that try end up insane (i.e. indoctrinated)

It's better than the organic vs. synthetic plot theme that was already narratively resolved on Rannoch.

[Xilizhra]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Random Jerkface wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

This one is a bit more descriptive of the Reaper's motive that thought worked best and actually fits the game we have.

If the reapers had to have a motive, I honestly would prefer that it were something simple and brutal, like The Killing Star, or that Harbinger were essentially Multivac.

I prefer the Cthulu method of having it be for a reason that organics don't understand, or can't understand. Those that try end up insane (i.e. indoctrinated)

It's better than the organic vs. synthetic plot theme that was already narratively resolved on Rannoch.

Nah. The explanation for the Reapers did belong at the end of the game. It wasn't perfectly executed by any means, but it wasn't awful.

The Reapers always struck me as artificially inflating their own sense of mystery so as to intimidate Shepard... which, of course, never seemed to work, so both Sovereign and Harbinger came across as complete blowhards.

[What a Succulent Ass]

Xilizhra wrote...

Well, the original joke wasn't particularly funny, it grew less funny the more it was repeated, and I don't like the comic that it spawned at all.

Well, the joke was old and dusty about ten minutes after it was made, but "calibrations" was unfunny before it even started, so I can't even be mad about that. I don't think the comic is supposed to be taken as gospel, on the other hand. It's there for whomever wants it.

[ShepnTali]

My initial reaction/analogy was like dating a girl I really liked, and when it was time to hit the home run, to my shocking horror 'she's' swingin' a bat, too.

[Fixers0]

MegaSovereign wrote...
Oh I disagree.....Synthesis and trans-humanism was a pretty big theme......However the completely positive outcome of Synthesis was unforeseen.

You must be seeing in a dimension I (and presumbly others) can't  see, because I (and presumbly others) haven't  noticed it.

[SlottsMachine]

MegaSovereign wrote...

General Slotts wrote...

Synthesis doesn't belong in Mass Effect, imo. Trans-humanism was not even a secondary theme, let alone something to be pushed to the forefront. Everyone expected some type of Destroy and Control endings, but more importantly most wanted a meaningful final mission.

Maybe the ending framework was solid, but its execution fails on almost every level. The framework is just Deus Ex though, which could have been fine I guess. The Catalyst doesn't help any of it either.

Oh I disagree.....Synthesis and trans-humanism was a pretty big theme......However the completely positive outcome of Synthesis was unforeseen.

I dunno, its not really talked about though. Sure there are things like Lazarus and biotic implants for non-asari but not a single person talks about any implications of what there use means.    

Modifié par General Slotts, 17 août 2013 - 06:15 .

[MegaSovereign]

Fixers0 wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...
Oh I disagree.....Synthesis and trans-humanism was a pretty big theme......However the completely positive outcome of Synthesis was unforeseen.

You must be seeing in a dimension I (and presumbly others) can't  see, because I (and presumbly others) haven't  noticed it.

Did you only read what you put in bold?

[MassivelyEffective0730]

MegaSovereign wrote...

General Slotts wrote...

Synthesis doesn't belong in Mass Effect, imo. Trans-humanism was not even a secondary theme, let alone something to be pushed to the forefront. Everyone expected some type of Destroy and Control endings, but more importantly most wanted a meaningful final mission.

Maybe the ending framework was solid, but its execution fails on almost every level. The framework is just Deus Ex though, which could have been fine I guess. The Catalyst doesn't help any of it either.

Oh I disagree.....Synthesis and trans-humanism was a pretty big theme......However the completely positive outcome of Synthesis was unforeseen.

I'd say trans-humanism was a theme, but not synthesis. TH was more of a subtle theme and it was brought up several times throughout the series, but it was then turned into something that really isn't transhumanism through synthesis. I think the core theme of synthesis (I think) was supposed to be about taking a leap of faith and self-sacrifice to create a better world through synthesis, whereas Destroy was the more conservative and empiracle idea of rejecting change and control was just for maintaining the status quo. Of course, it fails entirely at that, on its own merits and because the series didn't support it up to that point. Also, I think BW intended Destroy to be the pro-organic ending, control being the pro-synthetic ending, and synthesis being the 'perfect' ending.

I know a lot of people question whether Synthesis was truly intended to be the best, but I think it was, at least early on. The whole original ending seems even down to the use of Das Malefitz for the credits seems to be tailored to Synthesis, plus listening to the comments of some of the people at BW about synthesis.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 17 août 2013 - 06:17 .

[Obadiah]

Random Jerkface wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Well, the original joke wasn't particularly funny, it grew less funny the more it was repeated, and I don't like the comic that it spawned at all.

Well, the joke was old and dusty about ten minutes after it was made, but "calibrations" was unfunny before it even started, so I can't even be mad about that. I don't think the comic is supposed to be taken as gospel, on the other hand. It's there for whomever wants it.

Yup, glad it is there, and I find it very entertaining.
http://www.koobismo.com/

[SlottsMachine]

Random Jerkface wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Well, the original joke wasn't particularly funny, it grew less funny the more it was repeated, and I don't like the comic that it spawned at all.

Well, the joke was old and dusty about ten minutes after it was made, but "calibrations" was unfunny before it even started, so I can't even be mad about that. I don't think the comic is supposed to be taken as gospel, on the other hand. It's there for whomever wants it.

[MegaSovereign]

General Slotts wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

General Slotts wrote...

Synthesis doesn't belong in Mass Effect, imo. Trans-humanism was not even a secondary theme, let alone something to be pushed to the forefront. Everyone expected some type of Destroy and Control endings, but more importantly most wanted a meaningful final mission.

Maybe the ending framework was solid, but its execution fails on almost every level. The framework is just Deus Ex though, which could have been fine I guess. The Catalyst doesn't help any of it either.

Oh I disagree.....Synthesis and trans-humanism was a pretty big theme......However the completely positive outcome of Synthesis was unforeseen.

I dunno, its not really talked about though. Sure there are things like Lazarus and biotic implants for non-asari but not a single person talks about any implications of what there use means.    

Beings of transcended flesh have always been the antagonists of Mass Effect...

[What a Succulent Ass]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

I prefer the Cthulu method of having it be for a reason that organics don't understand, or can't understand. Those that try end up insane (i.e. indoctrinated)

It's better than the organic vs. synthetic plot theme that was already narratively resolved on Rannoch.

Just about anything would be better than the synthetics plot, given what happened over the last two games and the third. The reapers are clearly supposed to be reminiscent of the Old Ones, but I think the problem with that is there's then no believable way for Shepard and the rest of the galaxy to defeat a threat of that scale...not without significant set-up. This is likely what tripped the writers in the first place. It explains the sudden and reductive robots versus humans bent.

The first time I played ME1, I was convinced that the reapers were actually responsible for all life in the Milky Way, that they themselves seeded it (hence "reapers"). Whether for themselves or at the behest of outer (extragalactic) beings, I wasn't sure. Hell, I even thought it might have gotten JRPG-wild and start exploring metaphysics, or beings born from collective subconscious. After ME2, with all the gobbledegook about genetics, I'd started to lean toward the Harbinger-as-Multivac theory.

Wrong either way.

I'm just surprised they really stuck with "robots are bad and different."

Modifié par Random Jerkface, 17 août 2013 - 06:28 .

[SlottsMachine]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Beings of transcended flesh have always been the antagonists of Mass Effect...

But there role in the story was purely about free will, and how it can be taken. 

[Br3admax]

General Slotts wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Beings of transcended flesh have always been the antagonists of Mass Effect...

But there role in the story was purely about free will, and how it can be taken. 

Transhuman=/= a person with sythetic parts. EDI describes it as a person with a sythetic mind but was originally all human. Shepard is told that he/she is not trans-human, I doubt that anyone in sythesis is either. They're something weird all together. 

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Random Jerkface wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

I prefer the Cthulu method of having it be for a reason that organics don't understand, or can't understand. Those that try end up insane (i.e. indoctrinated)

It's better than the organic vs. synthetic plot theme that was already narratively resolved on Rannoch.

Just about anything would be better than the synthetics plot, given what happened over the last two games and the third. The reapers are clearly supposed to be reminiscent of the Old Ones, but I think the problem with that is there's then no believable way for Shepard and the rest of the galaxy to defeat a threat of that scale...not without significant set-up. This is likely what tripped the writers in the first place. It explains the sudden and reductive robots versus humans bent.

The first time I played ME1, I was convinced that the reapers were actually responsible for all life in the Milky Way, that they themselves seeded it (hence "reapers"). Whether for themselves or at the behest of outer (extragalactic) beings, I wasn't sure. Hell, I even thought it might have gotten JRPG-wild and start exploring metaphysics, or beings born from collective subconscious. After ME2, with all the gobbledegook about genetics, I'd started to lean toward the Harbinger-as-Multivac theory.

Wrong either way.

I'm just surprised they really stuck with "robots are bad and different."

Actually, I thought something along similar lines. I believed the Reapers were the ones who were responsible for life in the galaxy, and culling them for some reason that was beneficial to them. ME2 kind of reinforced that, in that they culled beings for reproductive purposes, but there was always more. Unfortunately, the writers had to ambitious of an idea and, combined with tripping themselves as you said with the writing too many times, ultimately lacked the ability to credibly write this concept.

One other thing against the organic vs. synthetic theme that the Reapers are supposedly trying to halt:

Ever notice how the Reapers actually instigate conflict between organics and synthetics? Javik mentions several races in his cycle that created synthetics which rebelled against their creators - with the Reapers guidance.

Same with the Heretics and the Geth - Sovereign deliberately tried to use them to instigate conflict (though admittedly, the conflict already existed.)

[MegaSovereign]

In the Mass Effect lore, integration with synthetic technology has only ever lead to remotely positive outcomes if its in moderation. Extreme cases seems to only ever be related to Reapers.

That's why Synthesis to me seems pretty inconsistent with what has been established by not only the games but even the expansionary Mass Effect novels. Especially when nanotechnology comes up...Here's some quotes from Mass Effect: Retribution

The Illusive Man: You're being implanted with self-replicating nanides. Their numbers will increase exponentially as they graft themselves onto your neurons and synapses. Eventually they will spread throughout your body....You will be repuposed into a synthetic-organic hybrid unlike anything any of the Council races could possibly create

[Grayson] was being transformed. Repurposed. The implants in his brain had spread throughout his body. The self-replicating Reaper nanotechnology had woven itself into his muscles, sinews, and nerves, transforming him into a monstrous hybrid of synthetic and organic life. His flesh had become stretched and semitranslucent....Even though he was no longer in control of his body, he could feel that the cybernetics had made him both faster and stronger...The melding of man and machine had created a being that was physically superior to any evolutionary design.

Modifié par MegaSovereign, 17 août 2013 - 06:39 .

[Xilizhra]

In the Mass Effect lore, integration with synthetic technology has only ever lead to remotely positive outcomes if its in moderation. Extreme cases seems to only ever be related to Reapers.

That's why Synthesis to me seems pretty inconsistent with what has been established by not only the games but even the expansionary Mass Effect novels. Especially when nanotechnology comes up...Here's some quotes from Mass Effect: Retribution

I wouldn't call it inconsistent, but rather a brilliant advance and something fundamentally different from Reaper corruption. Of course, it could have been foreshadowed better.

[Br3admax]

Not being foreshadowed when something else is, is the very definition of inconsistent.

[GreyLycanTrope]

MegaSovereign wrote...
Oh I disagree.....Synthesis and trans-humanism was a pretty big theme......However the completely positive outcome of Synthesis was unforeseen.

It was only discussed in passing if ever, I wouldn't count that as a big theme personally.

[MegaSovereign]

Xilizhra wrote...

In the Mass Effect lore, integration with synthetic technology has only ever lead to remotely positive outcomes if its in moderation. Extreme cases seems to only ever be related to Reapers.

That's why Synthesis to me seems pretty inconsistent with what has been established by not only the games but even the expansionary Mass Effect novels. Especially when nanotechnology comes up...Here's some quotes from Mass Effect: Retribution

I wouldn't call it inconsistent, but rather a brilliant advance and something fundamentally different from Reaper corruption. Of course, it could have been foreshadowed better.

I think they could have better established how Synthesis is fundamentally different. The loss of free will seems to be associated with Reaper technology. I would have felt better about Synthesis if there was any mention of how free will is retained.

[Xilizhra]

Br3ad wrote...

Not being foreshadowed when something else is, is the very definition of inconsistent.

Not really; Synthesis was never foreshadowed at all. It wasn't foreshadowed as something bad any more than as something good.

I think they could have better established how Synthesis is
fundamentally different. The loss of free will seems to be associated
with Reaper technology. I would have felt better about Synthesis if
there was any mention of how free will is retained.

That would have helped the presentation significantly, yes.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 17 août 2013 - 06:44 .

[Br3admax]

Xilizhra wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Not being foreshadowed when something else is, is the very definition of inconsistent.

Not really; Synthesis was never foreshadowed at all. It wasn't foreshadowed as something bad any more than as something good.

I meant forshadowing what Reaper tech does. The Crucible is not the weapon, the Citadel is, and the Citadel is Reaper tech. I know that Reaper tech can destroy. I know that it can control. And I know that when it synthesizes, it makes Reaper slaves. Forshadowing. 

[SlottsMachine]

MegaSovereign wrote...

I think they could have better established how Synthesis is fundamentally different. The loss of free will seems to be associated with Reaper technology. I would have felt better about Synthesis if there was any mention of how free will is retained.

Nicely put.