485 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

Br3ad wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Not being foreshadowed when something else is, is the very definition of inconsistent.

Not really; Synthesis was never foreshadowed at all. It wasn't foreshadowed as something bad any more than as something good.

I meant forshadowing what Reaper tech does. The Crucible is not the weapon, the Citadel is, and the Citadel is Reaper tech. I know that Reaper tech can destroy. I know that it can control. And I know that when it synthesizes, it makes Reaper slaves. Forshadowing. 

But the tech behind it is of a completely different design. I don't even think the Reapers built the Citadel, I think the Leviathans did. Additionally, it doesn't truly synthesize; it doesn't integrate the organic and synthetic elements properly.

[MegaSovereign]

The Citadel and the entire relay network were constructed by the Reapers in order to speed the time between each cycle.

The Reapers were also using the Citadel to make a human Reaper while it was over Earth.

Modifié par MegaSovereign, 17 août 2013 - 06:57 .

[Xilizhra]

Actually, the mass relays were constructed by the Leviathans; this is mentioned explicitly by the one you speak to.

[MegaSovereign]

Xilizhra wrote...

Actually, the mass relays were constructed by the Leviathans; this is mentioned explicitly by the one you speak to.

Nope....The fish actually says that the Intelligence "directed the Reapers to construct the Mass Relays."

[Xilizhra]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Actually, the mass relays were constructed by the Leviathans; this is mentioned explicitly by the one you speak to.

Nope....The fish actually says that the Intelligence "directed the Reapers to construct the Mass Relays."

Whereas I remember the Leviathan saying that they themselves built them (or had thralls do it).

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Xilizhra wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Actually, the mass relays were constructed by the Leviathans; this is mentioned explicitly by the one you speak to.

Nope....The fish actually says that the Intelligence "directed the Reapers to construct the Mass Relays."

Whereas I remember the Leviathan saying that they themselves built them (or had thralls do it).

Well you remember wrong. Leviathan states that the relays were built under the Catalyst.

[Br3admax]

Harbinger was made long before there were mass relays.

[Xilizhra]

Either way, it doesn't change that Synthesis is a wholly different process from huskification and is presented as such. If anything, it could arguably be compared to the geth enhancement code, which also doesn't enslave those under it.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 17 août 2013 - 07:11 .

[Reorte]

Br3ad wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Not being foreshadowed when something else is, is the very definition of inconsistent.

Not really; Synthesis was never foreshadowed at all. It wasn't foreshadowed as something bad any more than as something good.

I meant forshadowing what Reaper tech does. The Crucible is not the weapon, the Citadel is, and the Citadel is Reaper tech. I know that Reaper tech can destroy. I know that it can control. And I know that when it synthesizes, it makes Reaper slaves. Forshadowing.

That's hardly foreshadowing. The technology of every other single race can do the same thing. Technology now can do the same thing.  To be foreshadowing it has to provide reason to think that it's part of the plot and not just part of the setting. The Cerberus arc was an attempt at foreshadowing Control, although in the end it's a bad one because nothing in that arc has anything much to do with the option being present. Destroy was probably a given, but Synthesis foreshadowing is completely absent.

[Br3admax]

Cerberus is using Reaper tech to synthesis Reapers like husks and the like, they are a hell of a lot better at destroying things than we are. We can't control people. The outcome of synthesis is not foreshadowed. That was the point.

[MegaSovereign]

Xilizhra wrote...

Either way, it doesn't change that Synthesis is a wholly different process from huskification and is presented as such. If anything, it could arguably be compared to the geth enhancement code, which also doesn't enslave those under it.

Well, it's not really convincing that the activation process involves corrupting Shepard's flesh and momentarily giving him the same eyes that TIM and Saren both had.

[Xilizhra]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Either way, it doesn't change that Synthesis is a wholly different process from huskification and is presented as such. If anything, it could arguably be compared to the geth enhancement code, which also doesn't enslave those under it.

Well, it's not really convincing that the activation process involves corrupting Shepard's flesh and momentarily giving him the same eyes that TIM and Saren both had.

It's not corruption, it's disintegration. Also, Shepard already had cyber-eyes of a similar design, though they only glow as a heavy Renegade and the pattern isn't identical. However, it doesn't much matter because TIM's eyes weren't a sign of outright indoctrination anyway.

[MegaSovereign]

I'm not really talking about indoctrination. I have not yet read the Evolution comic but I'm pretty sure it was a Reaper artifact that gave TIM those eyes.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the presentation of Synthesis leaves me suspecting that it is at least partially designed by the Reapers.

Modifié par MegaSovereign, 17 août 2013 - 07:21 .

[Xilizhra]

MegaSovereign wrote...

I'm not really talking about indoctrination. I have not yet read the Evolution comic but I'm pretty sure it was a Reaper artifact that gave TIM those eyes.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the presentation of Synthesis leads me to believe that it is at least partially designed by the Reapers.

Not by the Reapers, but by the Catalyst.

[Eterna]

I always put mustard on my burger though....

And just mustard, Ketchup ruins everything. 

Modifié par Eterna5, 17 août 2013 - 07:30 .

[Eterna]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Either way, it doesn't change that Synthesis is a wholly different process from huskification and is presented as such. If anything, it could arguably be compared to the geth enhancement code, which also doesn't enslave those under it.

Well, it's not really convincing that the activation process involves corrupting Shepard's flesh and momentarily giving him the same eyes that TIM and Saren both had.

Shepard always had those eyes after the Lazarus project though, they become apparent if you're a renegade. Those eyes don't represent corruption or indoctrination, they only represent contact with Reaper tech, which Synthesis is. 

The problem is assuming that Reaper tech has to be bad. 

Modifié par Eterna5, 17 août 2013 - 07:48 .

[Br3admax]

Xilizhra wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

I'm not really talking about indoctrination. I have not yet read the Evolution comic but I'm pretty sure it was a Reaper artifact that gave TIM those eyes.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the presentation of Synthesis leads me to believe that it is at least partially designed by the Reapers.

Not by the Reapers, but by the Catalyst.

Who designed the Reapers and gives them protocols... 

[ruggly]

Eterna5 wrote...


The problem is assuming that Reaper tech has to be bad. 

Part of the problem is that Reaper tech within the games is always shown as bad.

edit: I should say for the most part, actually.  Mass Relays themselves aren't bad, but they were created with the purpose to speed up the cycles, so they kind of are?  I don't know anymore.

Modifié par ruggly, 17 août 2013 - 08:00 .

[dorktainian]

orbs in game might be just as bad

[Xilizhra]

Br3ad wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

I'm not really talking about indoctrination. I have not yet read the Evolution comic but I'm pretty sure it was a Reaper artifact that gave TIM those eyes.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the presentation of Synthesis leads me to believe that it is at least partially designed by the Reapers.

Not by the Reapers, but by the Catalyst.

Who designed the Reapers and gives them protocols... 

The Reapers are tools of war alone; Synthesis is something else.

[Ridwan]

No. The ending was still ****.

[Br3admax]

Xilizhra wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

I'm not really talking about indoctrination. I have not yet read the Evolution comic but I'm pretty sure it was a Reaper artifact that gave TIM those eyes.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the presentation of Synthesis leads me to believe that it is at least partially designed by the Reapers.

Not by the Reapers, but by the Catalyst.

Who designed the Reapers and gives them protocols... 

The Reapers are tools of war alone; Synthesis is something else.

Give me the in-game quote where this is true. Because all evidence in-game shows the Reapers are not "tools of war" it's just that organics fight back. The Catalyst does not call them as such, so i'm interested to see how you will prove this. 

[Xilizhra]

Br3ad wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

I'm not really talking about indoctrination. I have not yet read the Evolution comic but I'm pretty sure it was a Reaper artifact that gave TIM those eyes.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the presentation of Synthesis leads me to believe that it is at least partially designed by the Reapers.

Not by the Reapers, but by the Catalyst.

Who designed the Reapers and gives them protocols... 

The Reapers are tools of war alone; Synthesis is something else.

Give me the in-game quote where this is true. Because all evidence in-game shows the Reapers are not "tools of war" it's just that organics fight back. The Catalyst does not call them as such, so i'm interested to see how you will prove this. 

To be precise, the Reaper nanites and huskification are tools of war alone, i.e. the only parts of the Reapers relevant to be contrasted with Synthesis.

[drayfish]

Xilizhra wrote...

I more or less agree with the OP's presence. Albeit post-EC, which was sort of necessary to make them work.

'This tastes like a nihilistic, racially intolerant war attrocity instead.

I don't think I've ever gotten a clear answer to this: were you just as up in arms over Arrival? Because the principle is exactly the same.

I don't think you've ever bothered to ask the question, which is probably why.

I can't speak at any length to 'Arrival', because I've never played it (and frankly won't be bothering now), but from what I understand, there is a world of difference between being forced to sacrifice a few thousand Batarians in order to prevent immeasurably more slaughter (which, yes, is nonetheless horrifying), and being forced to concede that an entire race of beings are a real and imminent danger that must be exterminated, controlled, or mutated to protect civilisation from their destructive potential.

Swap out the word 'Synthetics' for any other real-world minority race, and you might well see why. 

Indeed, swap it out for 'Batarians', and you can get a hint of it's vulgarity:

'I believe that the Batarians will inevitably rise up and try to destory us all in the future, so we have to annihilate every single one of them right now, at once.  ...Or we can just enslave them (and everyone else, for their protection) under a totalitarian rule so that these Batarians won't be able to do that ever.  ...Or we can just mutate everyone to be the same so that we don't have to worry about their different DNA.  Pick one.  You can't refuse.  These Batarians are a danger that must be stopped.'

The game falls back into every horrid, racist cliche of fear of the 'other' that it can muster (particularly since a great many players have, at that moment in the game, proved the complete opposite - that human and synthetic can work cooperatively and trusting each other quite well indeed).  But, no, they are 'different' from us.  And different things must be destroyed, controlled, or made to be the same.  Because they are too diffent, and we can never learn to get along...

You trying to align 'Arrival's' cheap dramatic 'sacrifice' with ME3's intolerant, fear-mongering drivel as 'essentially the same' is disingenuous at best.

Modifié par drayfish, 18 août 2013 - 01:34 .

[Dr. Megaverse]

drayfish wrote...

'I believe that the Batarians will inevitably rise up and try to destory us all in the future, so we have to annihilate every single one of them right now, at once.  ...Or we can just enslave them (and everyone else, for their protection) under a totalitarian rule so that these Batarians won't be able to do that ever.  ...Or we can just mutate everyone to be the same so that we don't have to worry about their different DNA.  Pick one.  You can't refuse.  These Batarians are a danger that must be stopped.'

The game falls back into every horrid, racist cliche of fear of the 'other' that it can muster (particularly since a great many players have, at that moment in the game, proved the complete opposite - that human and synthetic can work cooperatively and trusting each other quite well indeed).  But, no, they are 'different' from us.  And different things must be destroyed, controlled, or made to be the same.  Because they are too diffent, and we can never learn to get along...

+1 

When you look at it through that prism the endings become even worse. The White Mans Burden is never far off is it? 

Modifié par Dr. Megaverse, 18 août 2013 - 01:50 .