56 réponses à ce sujet

[Lance Botelle]

Hi All,

As I continue work on my MP campaign, The Scroll, I would like to bring its blog to the attention of any potential players who may be interested in playing it and offering any feedback about some of its design. In this week's blog, I talk about "Dungeon Design" and ask for player's feedback about their most enjoyable "dungeon" to date and why it was such for them. Please feel free to drop by and comment using the link below:

http://worldofalthea...on-designs.html

The module has taken me years to write, and having people leave comments as you continue to chip away at the project are always good to receive.

If you have not heard of this campaign, or have not read the blog before, please feel free to leave any comment on any other post as you feel fit, as every legitimate comment can help to lead to some improvement before final release.

Many Thanks!

Lance.

[Arkalezth]

Have you read these posts?

http://tiberius209.b.../label/Dungeons

[Lance Botelle]

[quote]Arkalezth wrote...

Have you read these posts? http://tiberius209.b.../label/Dungeons [/quote]


Hi Arkalezth,

No I had not seen this post, but from a quick glance it looks as though it goes into more technical details than my own blog about the topic.  I will certainly have a read of it though, as I am interested in that anyway.

My own blog post was asking what players liked about a dungeon design in their own words: What did they enjoy about it? Atmosphere? The story? The rewards? etc. That kind of thing.

I will take a look at the link in more detail now. Thanks for that!

Lance.

[I_Raps]

Hi Lance,

I'll think about this and post something more useful sometime, but for now let me tell you a particular grievance of mine, something to NOT put in your campaign...

Useless, retrograde hoops to jump through. As an example, I offer SOZ' arcane attenuator mission. After gathering the six samples, you're put off ("I'll have to study these"). Then, once you've been to the Chult/Samarloch gateway temple - with no hint or warning, apropos nothing at all, in fact - you can go back to the wizard to open the next step, and then swing all the way back to Chult. You're looking at twelve area loads (or more) just to get back to where you were, and the only reason you know to do it is because you read it in a walkthrough.

This is about the worst in campaign/quest design.

Modifié par I_Raps, 16 août 2013 - 11:45 .

[Lance Botelle]

I_Raps wrote...

Hi Lance,

I'll think about this and post something more useful sometime, but for now let me tell you a particular grievance of mine, something to NOT put in your campaign...

Useless, retrograde hoops to jump through. As an example, I offer SOZ' arcane attenuator mission. After gathering the six samples, you're put off ("I'll have to study these"). Then, once you've been to the Chult/Samarloch gateway temple - with no hint or warning, apropos nothing at all, in fact - you can go back to the wizard to open the next step, and then swing all the way back to Chult. You're looking at twelve area loads (or more) just to get back to where you were, and the only reason you know to do it is because you read it in a walkthrough.

This is about the worst in campaign/quest design.

Hi I_Raps,

Oh that rings a bell actually ... I think I do recall having similar frustration with that, but the memory had faded .... until now.  I must agree with you that any quests that have you running around without any good reason/previous guidance is frustrating. I hope I do not have any of those ... hopefully any beta testing will help if I have missed something like that.

I look forward to your next post then.

Lance.

THANKS ALSO TO MY BLOG POSTERS (WILL REPLY ON MY BLOG):-

Tchos!

Modifié par Lance Botelle, 17 août 2013 - 10:23 .

[kamal_]

I_Raps wrote...

Hi Lance,

I'll think about this and post something more useful sometime, but for now let me tell you a particular grievance of mine, something to NOT put in your campaign...

Useless, retrograde hoops to jump through. As an example, I offer SOZ' arcane attenuator mission. After gathering the six samples, you're put off ("I'll have to study these"). Then, once you've been to the Chult/Samarloch gateway temple - with no hint or warning, apropos nothing at all, in fact - you can go back to the wizard to open the next step, and then swing all the way back to Chult. You're looking at twelve area loads (or more) just to get back to where you were, and the only reason you know to do it is because you read it in a walkthrough.

This is about the worst in campaign/quest design.

/comic book guy voice
Worst quest ever.
/comic book guy voice

[Dann-J]

My preferences for crypts or catacombs (which is what most 'dungeons' usually are in these games) are:

- They should be dark, so that light sources or darkvision are required.

- There should be plenty of random atmospheric sounds (chains rattling, groans, whispers, small rocks falling, etc) to compliment an appropriate ambient soundtrack.

- The deeper you go, the nastier the inhabitants should be.

- There should be plenty of locks and traps to make rogues useful (they won't be sneak-attacking anything undead, so you wouldn't take a rogue along for their combat prowess).

- Include some unique undead types other than the standard zombies/skeletons. There are lots of interesting undead blueprints out there (Libris Mortis, for instance).

I tried to live up to those points in Shaar Moan (shameless plug).

Modifié par DannJ, 18 août 2013 - 10:52 .

[Lance Botelle]

DannJ wrote...

My preferences for crypts or catacombs (which is what most 'dungeons' usually are in these games) are:

- They should be dark, so that light sources or darkvision are required.

- There should be plenty of random atmospheric sounds (chains rattling, groans, whispers, small rocks falling, etc) to compliment an appropriate ambient soundtrack.

- The deeper you go, the nastier the inhabitants should be.

- There should be plenty of locks and traps to make rogues useful (they won't be sneak-attacking anything undead, so you wouldn't take a rogue along for their combat prowess).

- Include some unique undead types other than the standard zombies/skeletons. There are lots of interesting undead blueprints out there (Libris Mortis, for instance).

I tried to live up to those points in Shaar Moan (shameless plug).

Hi DannJ,
I think I meet all those points you mention.

Where is there the Libris Mortis blueprint available ... I found a NWN1 but not NWN2 versions.

I'll check your mod out as well.

Lance.

[Arkalezth]

Lance Botelle wrote...
No I had not seen this post, but from a quick glance it looks as though it goes into more technical details than my own blog about the topic.

I'm not sure if you just just looked at the first post or not, but just in case, I was referring to all of them under that tag, especially the one at the bottom ("What makes a good dungeon?"). I linked it because I mostly agree with his points (with yours and Dann's as well), and I couldn't think of much else to add.

Modifié par Arkalezth, 19 août 2013 - 10:44 .

[Lance Botelle]

Arkalezth wrote...
I'm not sure if you just just looked at the first post or not, but just in case, I was referring to all of them under that tag, especially the one at the bottom ("What makes a good dungeon?"). I linked it because I mostly agree with his points (with yours and Dann's as well), and I couldn't think of much else to add.

Ah, Good point. I had missed the ones further down and had only read the first one. I'm going to read the others as well now. Thanks for pointing that out.

Lance.

[kamal_]

DannJ wrote...
- They should be dark, so that light sources or darkvision are required.

I'm certainly a fan of dark (I have pitch black maps with no light anywhere), but areas I expect will be lower level I tend to try to include some sort of environmental light source, whether glowing muchrooms, ceiling openings, or magical glowing doodads left around. The reason is that a low level pc has to give up the shield to hold their torch, and that's a significant tradeoff for low level characters. A bit more power and they can make the shield versus light source tradeoff decision.

On the other hand, having lit torches in crypts no one's been in for 500 years, ugh (I'm looking at you, Skyrim).

[MasterChanger]

Although very dark areas make things quite challenging for players with very poor vision such as myself. I always already turn the gamma way up on most games I play.

Modifié par MasterChanger, 19 août 2013 - 06:40 .

[Tchos]

As I see it, lighting is for the player, not the character, and the player should always be able to see. I hate pitch black dungeons so much, I will open up a module and add lights if I need to.

[Lance Botelle]

Hi All,

Lighting ... I prefer to have pitch dark if pitch dark calls for it, meaning it requires the PC to find a light source or have access to the light spell, or have Darkvision. Not having such places feels like a "dumbing down" to me. And if they did not exist, then torches, lamps, lanterns and spells are pointless.

However, here are my provisos ...

1) Light sources must be readily available, and cheap.
2) Some dark areas may be complemented with ambient lighting, but only enough to still require a light source.
3) Don't overuse them ... and so have more ambient lighting than not.

The bottom line, some places simply deserve full darkness, and can be played as a challenge.

Tchos ... Why not simply buy a torch, or learn the light spell, or even play with a PC with Darkvision? Wouldn't that be more atmospheric?

Thanks all,
Lance.

Modifié par Lance Botelle, 19 août 2013 - 10:10 .

[Dann-J]

There are various equippable items that give off light, especially the very cheap rings (crimson, cyan, jade), as well as the more useful rings that grant other bonuses. Rings of Insight boost lore, Purple Dragon rings can cast light and protect from poison, etc. I think some of the rings of resistance that boost saving throws have light properties too. Not to mention various robes and shields.

If you don't like the light spell effect, you can choose to cast the spell on an equipped item rather than yourself. Then you get ordinary white light instead of insanely bright (1.5x intensity) purple light, without an effect that occasionally eclipses the camera.

[Tchos]

I usually have plenty of torches, and more light spells than I could ever need, and usually light-emitting gear as well, which I hate since they can ruin area lighting as I was talking about in regard to my own module a few days ago. I don't like the light spell, and use it only when it's too late to edit an area, though I didn't know you can cast it on items. The purple light is quite ugly and harsh, though white light wouldn't be that great for atmosphere either. Since I usually play non-humans, darkvision and low light vision is always available, but I don't like the way it looks either, and it's still too dim.

Torches don't cast ugly light, at least, but I really can't get much enjoyment out of exploring an area if I can only see a small radius around me at a time.

Those are some of my reasons as a player. As a modder, I use different colours, intensities, and positioning of light to create a mood and to direct the player's eye toward new areas of interest.

[Lance Botelle]

Hi All (Tchos),

I forgot to mention, I have removed the "ball" that floats above the head in the Light spell, as I found it annoying. Now, the PC gets a simple "light" effect around them when cast. Hopefully, coupled with the lighting already in place, the overall effect will be quite good.

EDIT: I also forgot to say that I appreciate that "effects" may appear to "spoil" the original lighting in some situations, but I have found that it's not too bad in the areas I have tested to date. I.e. The overall effect is still what I hoped, even when additional lights/darkvision are applied. But, maybe I am less critical about lighting due to being colour blind.

Lance.

Modifié par Lance Botelle, 19 août 2013 - 11:38 .

[Dann-J]

I too tend to edit the light spell effect, although mostly to make the light white rather than purple, and to tone down the intensity. I can't always be bothered to cast it on an equippable item. I've also created my own darkvision / low-light vision effects; red darkvision like the 'infravision' in the original Baldur's Gate, and a green low-light vision effect resembling that of night-vision goggles.

I for one like having a low circle of visibility in dark conditions, to scare the bejeesus out of players when they don't see things rushing at them until they're right on top of them. Tweaking the fog start/end settings in interior areas can restrict how far players can see, regardless of what size light radius they are giving off. The darkness itself becomes part of the ambience.

That has the added bonus that you don't have to put down nearly as many environmental placeables to decorate the place - the player won't see many of them anyway, and chances are they'll be concentrating so hard on not being ambushed that they won't even notice their surroundings much.

[Tchos]

I have a mod installed that removed the ball, as well.

Anyway, vive la différence! Mine may be too well-lit for the preferences of others, but I actually have a script included that will allow users to disable (and re-enable) all of the lights in their current area through the console in-game, if they wish for a dark dungeon.

[Tchos]

Dann, you mention night-vision colour effects, and that reminds me of my time dungeon-delving in Oblivion.  The "night eye" spell had a blue tint to it, and since Oblivion tended to have dark dungeons, and since the "light" spell was perhaps even worse than the one in NWN2, I was always running around in full-bright monochromatic-blue-tinted no-shadow environments with absolutely no ambience.  But when the alternative was not being able to see, well, it's either that or not playing.

One result of training me to break out the night vision at the first sign of darkness is that I wasn't able to tell if the designer ever put any light in the place for any special areas, because I'd very rarely ever remove it.

[Dann-J]

Low-light vision should be monochromatic. The retinas of nocturnal creatures tend to be all 'rod' cells, which are sensitive to low light levels, and few or no 'cone' cells that detect colour. Creatures that see colours well (like us primates) tend not to have great night vision. You can't have your cake *and* see it too.

The cat potion in The Witcher achieved such a desaturated colour effect, and may be a good approximation of how actual cats see the world at night. Although lighting in that game was generally much better than in NWN2.

[Tchos]

No argument from me that it's realistic to have a monochromatic night vision.  My only thing is that as a player, I don't want to actually have a hard time seeing in dark places while playing, just as I don't actually want to feel the sensation of being hit by a sword while playing.  In a roleplaying game, my opinion is that the character is the one that should have bonuses or penalties based on their stats and attributes, not the player.

[Lance Botelle]

Hi All,

DannJ wrote...

<SNIP> The darkness itself becomes part of the ambience.<SNIP>

Agree with you here DannJ!

Tchos wrote...

My only thing is that as a player, I don't want to actually have a hard time seeing in dark places while playing, just as I don't actually want to feel the sensation of being hit by a sword while playing.  In a roleplaying game, my opinion is that the character is the one that should have bonuses or penalties based on their stats and attributes, not the player.

I certainly understand this point Tchos. However, because the computer gives us that "real vision", which was otherwise left in the mind of the player in something like PnP (pen and paper) D&D, it almost begs requirement to satisfy both atmosphere and mechanics.

The question of lighting is one reason I wrote a blog on the subject once: http://worldofalthea...arch?q=lighting Note also the results of the poll on the blog that follows.

EDIT: FYI: The blog mentions the module as being called "Better The Demon". That is its working title. It is now called "The Scroll". And I had to chuckle at my own thoughts about the date of finishing again.

Cheers,
Lance

Modifié par Lance Botelle, 20 août 2013 - 11:20 .

[Eguintir Eligard]

Why are people even talking about torches? Only a tool would hold a torch when there are CANTRIPS for light in a spell slot (0) that otherwise never gets used.

[kamal_]

Eguintir Eligard wrote...

Why are people even talking about torches? Only a tool would hold a torch when there are CANTRIPS for light in a spell slot (0) that otherwise never gets used.

Not everyone realizes the usefulness of the Light spell, and a party may not be able to cast it for various reasons such as null magic areas, party being seperated leading to non-casters all by themselves, or just lacking a party member who can cast it such as in settings that generally don't have casters in the party (Middle Earth, Lankhmar). At low levels, the Light spell will also not last long enough for any significant dungeoneering time in the dark.