56 réponses à ce sujet

[Tchos]

Lance Botelle wrote...
The question of lighting is one reason I wrote a blog on the subject once: http://worldofalthea...arch?q=lighting Note also the results of the poll on the blog that follows.

Yes, I'm aware that my thoughts, opinions, and preferences are almost never in the majority, but argumentum ad populum is considered a fallacy.

[Shaughn78]

Dungeons need a good back story for their existence, this includes massive dungeons to small one room caverns. Some reason for being or something halfway interesting should have happened in this space before the arrival of the player.

For plot dungeons, rumors and stories are a great way to introduce the area. A player shouldn't run into a dead end because they are ill-prepared for a plot area. Local folk lore and exaggerated stories are a great way to introduce the dungeons inhabitants' resistances and damage type. If the stories talk about a vicious spirit that devours its prey in a fire of anger and wrath the player will gather a few fire resistance items and opt for ice spells opposed to fireballs.

Random dungeons are fun as a way to explore. Stumbling upon them and discovering their history and reason can be as much of a reward as the final piece of treasure. Also that treasure can be linked to the dungeons story. If a player runs into a dead-end they can retreat and try again, while progress to the storyline won't be interrupted. 

Inhabitants:
Unique is always fun, either from a source book or a made up creature. Fighting something new and different, especially for a boss type monster is a bit more fun for a player, and is a bit of a reward for the dungeon crawl. If a standard monster type is used add variations: brutes that can rage, rogues that can backstab from the shadows, casters and give the fighters different damage type weapons to bypass resistances.

Lighting and visual effects should match the environment and inhabitants. A fungus cave may glow with a spore like gas throughout the area. Unexplored areas or ancient areas should only have natural lights or a few magical light sources, no fire. A usuable item that the player can ignite is fine as long as the player needs to do it.
I recently created a very dark area that uses visual effects to decrease the effectiveness of light spells and items. Torches will cause shadows and currupt skeletons (a more powerful dark purple skeleton with glowing red eyes) to extinguish the torch and attack the player.

Interactive items:
I enjoy making items that are examinable. This allows the area to have a bit more character. Describe the dead body, or how the furniture is badly damaged. We have learned to tweak the avaliable placeables to create new looking environments but a bit of description can increase the feel of the dungeon.
By scripting on and off item's useable flags things can be discovered and disgarded as the player explores the area.

That is it for now.

[kamal_]

A couple easy ways justify lighting a dungeon without resorting to "wizard did it":
Slimy mold growing on the walls, conveniently glowing whatever color needed.
A bunch of fireflies or ground bugs that glow (mini fire beetles!).
The monsters themselves could emit light, or carry items that do (such as the glowing sword the player will loot from them).
Mineral ore in the wall that glows a bit (maybe the player can even mine it to craft something!).
The Prime Material Plane is thin here (the place is near an elemental portal for instance), light from another plane is seeping through.

The old trope "Wizard did it" is acceptable, as long as you say so instead of just having light for no apparent reason.

[Lance Botelle]

Shaughn78 wrote...

Dungeons need a good back story for their existence, this includes massive dungeons to small one room caverns. Some reason for being or something halfway interesting should have happened in this space before the arrival of the player. <SNIP>.....That is it for now.

Hi Shaughn78,

Thanks for bringing the post back on track. We all managed to veer off course for a moment .... obviously stumbling around in the dark without a light source.  

You make some great points, and have given me an idea that I needed to help overcome a current issue .... hopefully, I can include it without feeling too orchestrated.

Kamal wrote...

A couple easy ways justify lighting a dungeon without resorting to "wizard did it":

True. These wizards get blamed for quite a few things.  

Tchos wrote...

Yes, I'm aware that my thoughts, opinions, and preferences are almost never in the majority, but argumentum ad populum is considered a fallacy.

I would not have thought there were enough votes in that poll to make too big a point, but it was helpful from the point of view of the readers I currently had at the time. I was struggling as to which way to go myself. For, I like to be able to see the game I am playing, but I also like the idea of requiring a light source. I don't think either option is "wrong", I just figured that "lighting" was an aspect of dungeon design worth considering .. in every pitch and shade.

Lance.

Modifié par Lance Botelle, 20 août 2013 - 07:01 .

[Lugaid of the Red Stripes]

How do people feel about mazes? Like the dark, part of the point of them is to disorient the player and make basic gameplay difficult for them.

[kamal_]

Lugaid of the Red Stripes wrote...

How do people feel about mazes? Like the dark, part of the point of them is to disorient the player and make basic gameplay difficult for them.

Is the maze there for a reason?

Modifié par kamal_, 20 août 2013 - 09:23 .

[Lance Botelle]

Lugaid of the Red Stripes wrote...

How do people feel about mazes? Like the dark, part of the point of them is to disorient the player and make basic gameplay difficult for them.

Hi LotRS,

I think maze puzzles can be "fun" if they are done well. Personally, I have not been able to find any good cause to include any to date, but I'm not saying it may never happen. However, to make a maze work, I would consider disabling the Main Map, even if I left the mini-map working as an aid. (Get a little perspective, but not total.)

Maybe one to chew over ... but, I prefer "dark areas" to "maze puzzles" I think. At least with the former there is an "immediate" fix with a light source. The latter requires more patience, which I have less of as I get older.

Lance.

[Tchos]

Lance Botelle wrote...
For, I like to be able to see the game I am playing, but I also like the idea of requiring a light source. I don't think either option is "wrong", I just figured that "lighting" was an aspect of dungeon design worth considering

I agree, it is worth considering, and I don't consider either option "wrong" myself.  Vive la différence, I say again!

Lugaid of the Red Stripes wrote...
How do people feel
about mazes? Like the dark, part of the point of them is to disorient
the player and make basic gameplay difficult for them.

Well, as you might guess from my player-vs-character position, I'm against those in a D&D-based RPG as well.  Navigating confusing terrain is something that should be done with survival checks and rolls by the character, not the trial and error and external player knowledge of this non-survivalist in front of the keyboard.

[Dann-J]

kamal_ wrote...

Lugaid of the Red Stripes wrote...

How do people feel about mazes? Like the dark, part of the point of them is to disorient the player and make basic gameplay difficult for them.

Is the maze there for a reason?

That depends on whether the maze is deliberate or not.

A paranoid mage or dwarven leader might create a deliberate labyrinth in order to make it difficult for outsiders to break in. Adventurers who get lost and die in such mazes might even be a source of undead guardians who make it more difficult for subsequent adventurers.

Accidental labyrinths can form if systems are gradually expanded by various different people over the years haphazardly. This can be the case with catacombs, back alleys, or the sewer system of a large city. The random burrowings of large creatures can also create inadvertant mazes, as can water as it carves out limestone caves.

The problem with mazes in this game is that once you've opened all the doors or cleared out a fog-of-war system, you have a complete overview of the area available. That means that truly difficult mazes often require some sort of teleportation system that forces players to memorise where each teleporter sends them, in order to make the area map of little help. Teleportation is powerful magic though, and requires some sort of explanation as to its presence.

One solution might be to cover the entire area with black 'estate lids' that are high enough not to block the camera, but otherwise block the area and mini maps entirely. But what sort of bastard would do that to unsuspecting players?

[kamal_]

DannJ wrote...

kamal_ wrote...

Lugaid of the Red Stripes wrote...

How do people feel about mazes? Like the dark, part of the point of them is to disorient the player and make basic gameplay difficult for them.

Is the maze there for a reason?

That depends on whether the maze is deliberate or not.

A paranoid mage or dwarven leader might create a deliberate labyrinth in order to make it difficult for outsiders to break in. Adventurers who get lost and die in such mazes might even be a source of undead guardians who make it more difficult for subsequent adventurers.

Accidental labyrinths can form if systems are gradually expanded by various different people over the years haphazardly. This can be the case with catacombs, back alleys, or the sewer system of a large city. The random burrowings of large creatures can also create inadvertant mazes, as can water as it carves out limestone caves.

The problem with mazes in this game is that once you've opened all the doors or cleared out a fog-of-war system, you have a complete overview of the area available. That means that truly difficult mazes often require some sort of teleportation system that forces players to memorise where each teleporter sends them, in order to make the area map of little help. Teleportation is powerful magic though, and requires some sort of explanation as to its presence.

One solution might be to cover the entire area with black 'estate lids' that are high enough not to block the camera, but otherwise block the area and mini maps entirely. But what sort of bastard would do that to unsuspecting players?

Lance Botelle's Fog of War system :-)

Anyway, a maze is just a giant dungeon with the turns in the hallways close together. Just look at the old "super dungeon" style of modules TSR and others made.

[Tchos]

Lance's Fog of War is great!  Fog of War in general is a navigational aid, not a hindrance like blocking the map entirely.  Fog of War lets you see where you've been, so you know where you still haven't explored.

[Lugaid of the Red Stripes]

To wax theoretical for a moment, dungeons for me, being underground and everything, are all about taking the PC out of their normal world (and the player out of normal gameplay) and having them do something distinctly different for a while. Take away the light, take away their orientation, take away their sneak attacks and criticals with undead monsters. If you really want to be mean, take away their magic, or their companions, or even all their equipment.

Though I try to make my dungeons sensible, with some sort of back story in mind, I often make them wholly unconnected to the real plot of the module, just so they can weird enough to jar their player out of their routine.

But of course, classical dungeon are often the complete opposite. They're very straight-forward, highly structured bouts of gameplay; open the room, kill the monsters, loot everything, then move on to the next room. The simple structure is all part of the fun.

Gives me an idea for a nice hybrid: each room has a different weird challenge in it, but they're laid out in a kind of branching maze, so the player can pick and choose at each point what kind of challenge they want to face.

But anyway, are dungeons supposed to tell stories? Just be fun crawls? Or are they supposed to be something weird and different?

[Dann-J]

Lugaid of the Red Stripes wrote...

Gives me an idea for a nice hybrid: each room has a different weird challenge in it, but they're laid out in a kind of branching maze, so the player can pick and choose at each point what kind of challenge they want to face.

I did something similar to that in Isle of Shrines in a test of wits beneath a shrine of Dugmaren Brightmantle (part of the storyline good characters followed). There were six puzzle stations, but you chose whether to head east or west at the beginning (without known what was in either direction), so you only got to do three of the six puzzles in any single game. Either direction eventually led to the prize at the centre.

If you answered a question wrong at any of the stations, you were punished by having to fight summoned creatures or illusions. The incorrect answer was then taken off the list of multiple choices, until eventually you learned something (either the easy way, or the hard way). If you answered questions correctly the first time (there were always plenty of clues about), you received bonus rewards. If you guessed the answers and ended up hacking your way to success, you received the extra XP for killing things.

The third puzzle station in either group of three was an incomplete puzzle. The rule books for those stations had been damaged  (the cause was different for both), so you had to try to reconstruct the rules themselves before attempting the actual puzzle.

[Lance Botelle]

Hi All,

I answered posts as I read them.

Iveforgotmypassword wrote...
<SNIP> ... there's a fine line between challenge and frustration which is hard to balance. Personally I just go for the dimly lit with map points for up/down/in/out to try to mix a bit of both gameplay and realism. <SNIP>

Balance, as you say, is the key. I try to do things along the line you suggest here as well.

Tchos wrote...
<SNIP> Vive la différence, I say again!

Agreed!

DannJ wrote...
<SNIP>  One solution might be to cover the entire area with black 'estate lids' that are high enough not to block the camera, but otherwise block the area and mini maps entirely. But what sort of bastard would do that to unsuspecting players?

Er ... That would be me.  I have a system where I can disable the main map ... and would do for a maze. I'd be merciful and leave the minimap of course .

Kamal wrote...
Lance Botelle's Fog of War system :-)

Ah, I see Kamal has pointed that out already.

Tchos wrote...
Lance's Fog of War is great!  Fog of War in general is a navigational aid, not a hindrance like blocking the map entirely.  Fog of War lets you see where you've been, so you know where you still haven't explored.

This is the primary way my group of players and I like to use fog of war ... and we like it for the same reasons you say. We like to explore and gradually uncover what we find. Although, I do have the added nasty of disabling the maps altogether if I really want to.  However, I have just thought of an additional to the fog of war system, and that would be to add a different "block" type, one that was 25%-50% transparent, which could be used to allow the player to "see" the map, but under a "fog" which was not completely black. That's NOT my personal preference, but it could certainly be an option for players who like to "know" the whole map, but like some "fog" to differentiate where they have been and still need to go.

Lugaid of the Red Stripes wrote...
To wax theoretical for a moment, dungeons for me, being underground and everything, are all about taking the PC out of their normal world (and the player out of normal gameplay) and having them do something distinctly different for a while. Take away the light, take away their orientation, take away their sneak attacks and criticals with undead monsters. If you really want to be mean, take away their magic, or their companions, or even all their equipment.

Though I try to make my dungeons sensible, with some sort of back story in mind, I often make them wholly unconnected to the real plot of the module, just so they can weird enough to jar their player out of their routine.

But of course, classical dungeon are often the complete opposite. They're very straight-forward, highly structured bouts of gameplay; open the room, kill the monsters, loot everything, then move on to the next room. The simple structure is all part of the fun.

Gives me an idea for a nice hybrid: each room has a different weird challenge in it, but they're laid out in a kind of branching maze, so the player can pick and choose at each point what kind of challenge they want to face.

But anyway, are dungeons supposed to tell stories? Just be fun crawls? Or are they supposed to be something weird and different?

I believe "dungeons" can be both of these descriptions. However, I suppose I am trying to grasp what are the core elements that makes either type memorable. Your first paragraph explains how I like to do things as well. i.e. Add an element of "difference" to the norm that has the player associate the experience with "fun", but each for a different reason. And your last paragraph has descriptions of all different dungeon types.

DannJ wrote...
<SNIP>There were six puzzle stations, but you chose whether to head east or west at the beginning (without known what was in either direction), so you only got to do three of the six puzzles in any single game. Either direction eventually led to the prize at the centre.<SNIP>

Now I really like this kind of thing, but I struggle trying to incorporate it in any storyline that gives it any kind of "reason for being". When I first designed dungeons, I had a few based on this kind of principle, but as I designed more, I started to become more discriminating about why a certain type of design with such puzzles existed. I wanted to add these puzzles, but my "reality check meter" kept stopping me from doing so. For the sake of gameplay ... and simple fun ... I find I cannot help but avoid a degree of "reality checking" just so I can still add these kind of elements. However, I am a lot more critical about how I include this kind of thing than I used to be, and I find it slows my design down somewhat.

Now, I know its only a game, and I should not worry about such things, but its something that I find myself cogitating over more and more as I have done more designs. I'm probably just getting too old and over sensitive about such things. Bottom line, however, I still love puzzles and include them as often as possible .. even if it means working a bit harder to give them a better logical background for including them ...

Cheers all!
Lance.

Modifié par Lance Botelle, 21 août 2013 - 05:30 .

[Lugaid of the Red Stripes]

RE: reality-based puzzles
I really like the NWN:SoU dungeon that was a kobold colony. As long as you have an actual community living in a dungeon, as opposed to just vermin or dumb mooks, then you can use the oddness of the community to justify whatever puzzle you want to put together (small-town politics, social rivalries, unusual business ventures, peculiar local customs and festivals). Even more complicated would be to have two or more communities living (or undead) side-by-side, peaceably or no, in the confines of a dungeon.

[I_Raps]

re: mazes

Even the most wtf, teeth-gritting illogical maze/puzzle actually has some precedent in fiction, if you feel you need justification. No, I'm not talking about Minos and the Labyrinth - something much more recent. In the Elric series, sailing into Imrryr required negotiating a maze, and that was years before D&D or its ilk.

For game design, "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law."

[I_Raps]

As for darkness ...

Very, very few creatures actually live in total darkness, and they tend to be tiny. If you have any inhabitants, there should be some light (glowing moss, lava, whatever); but if the area is inhabited or regularly passed through by sentients, there should be better light sources (sconces, perhaps). How about trying to follow a batch of orcoblinolds with ... torchbearers!?

[Dann-J]

Lance Botelle wrote...

 

DannJ wrote...
<SNIP>There were six puzzle stations, but you chose whether to head east or west at the beginning (without known what was in either direction), so you only got to do three of the six puzzles in any single game. Either direction eventually led to the prize at the centre.<SNIP>

Now I really like this kind of thing, but I struggle trying to incorporate it in any storyline that gives it any kind of "reason for being".

Dugmaren Brightmantle is the dwarven god of scholarship, discovery and invention. The chambers beneath the temple on the Isle of Shrines were originally used to test young initiates to the church. Since one of your companions in the module is a cleric of Dugmaren Brightmantle, he quite handily explains all that when you first enter the area.

[Lance Botelle]

Hi All,

I think I will have to take a bit more time trying to let my imagination stretch some ideas when it comes to logic and puzzles.

I_Raps wrote...

re: mazes

Even the most wtf, teeth-gritting illogical maze/puzzle actually has some precedent in fiction, if you feel you need justification. No, I'm not talking about Minos and the Labyrinth - something much more recent. In the Elric series, sailing into Imrryr required negotiating a maze, and that was years before D&D or its ilk.

For game design, "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law." 

I can't do that "law".  I need more convincing in my own mind nowadays. That said, I'll try to lighten up a bit.

I_Raps wrote...

As for darkness ...

Very, very few creatures actually live in total darkness, and they tend to be tiny. If you have any inhabitants, there should be some light (glowing moss, lava, whatever); but if the area is inhabited or regularly passed through by sentients, there should be better light sources (sconces, perhaps). How about trying to follow a batch of orcoblinolds with ... torchbearers!?

The thing is that there will be "some" dungeons which have not been touched in /years/decades/centuries (perhaps), and so initially (until the PC interacts at least), if the place is underground, it is likely to be very dark. i.e. pitch black. However, I do hear what you are saying, and I will "lighten up a bit" if you forgive the pun.

DannJ wrote...

Dugmaren Brightmantle is the dwarven god of scholarship, discovery and invention. The chambers beneath the temple on the Isle of Shrines were originally used to test young initiates to the church. Since one of your companions in the module is a cleric of Dugmaren Brightmantle, he quite handily explains all that when you first enter the area.

I see that there can be good reasons for "mazes", but I have not thought of anything too original to include one to date, with the exception of one old dungeon I have in mind. That will probably never see the light of a computer though. (Goodness me, another "light" pun.)

Cheers,
Lance.

[Rolo Kipp]

<poking his substantial...>

Just be cognizant of the difference between mazes and labyrinths. Mazes are designed to purposefully mislead people and to hide something at the "heart" (which may not be the center). Their use is there for to hide or protect or to possibly test.

A labyrinth is a ceremonial journey with no dead-ends and an foreordained, if sometimes hidden, heart. It is designed like meditation or monk training to channel the actions or thoughts of the traveler.

From Wikipedia
In colloquial English, labyrinth is generally synonymous with maze, but many contemporary scholars observe a distinction between the two: maze refers to a complex branching (multicursal) puzzle with choices of path and direction; while a single-path (unicursal) labyrinth has only a single, non-branching path, which leads to the center. A labyrinth in this sense has an unambiguous route to the center and back and is not designed to be difficult to navigate.

The purpose, therefore, of a labyrinth is to make something of the journey to the heart, without distracting from or preventing the culmination of the journey.

If you make a maze, decide what you are protecting/hiding in the heart and what choices/dead-ends you want to tempt/tease/threaten the players with.

If you make a labyrinth, Decide what the journey is supposed to be about and what should happen along the way.

Both of those things pertain to the whole meta-story as well as a physical structure, and neither are exclusive of the other. But it helps *me* decide design elements when I clarify whether they are a part of the Maze or a part of the Labyrinth :-)

Edit: An example of a maze, if it's not too annoying.
One of the back-stories on the Gemworld of Amethyst involves the #1 & #2 baddies.
#1, a dracoliche named Greenvenom wanted to hide and protect some things... among them his phylactery, of course. Being *very* old and *very* powerful, he took over an ancient dwarven stronghold and built a maze. Not just any maze, but a full tesseract (actual design of which took nearly a whole pad of graph-paper in the early '80s :-P). There was purpose that drove the design. But it was one design (the tesseract) imposed on another (dwarven ruins).

Then #2 (shortly #1) who *really* wanted a certain tome of Greenvenom's, manipulated some adventurers into defeating the big G (year-long campaign that they "won", to their eternal horror). *BEG*

Now, it's 300 years later (Current NwN-engine setting). The tesseract of Greenvenom still exists (as does the (rather miffed) old, dead, thing). That whole complex still exists, partially ruined, partially populated. 

But, without the back-story, it would seem to be nothing but random elements jumbled together, and frustratingly resistant to mapping. Without knowing how much thought and design went into it, would any of my players thought anything except "This wizard's crazier than a sanitorium full of bedbugs!"?

An example of a labyrinth: 
Beneath Dreamguard on Needlespire lies the Labyrinth of Rolan (*cough*). It's purpose is not to kill payers, but to make them journey both physically and spiritually before they can come into my august presence. There are tests and guides within, and the secret at the heart is... still a secret. It has it's maze-like elements, but its overriding purpose is to guide the players into self-knowledge. There is only one way through. Guarantee you won't get lost (enough to matter). But you may very well give up and go back from whence you came.

My coupla coppers :-)

<...nose in where he smells minotaur spore>

Modifié par Rolo Kipp, 22 août 2013 - 06:28 .

[diophant]

Although I'm a little late for the light&darkness discussion, here are my two cents: I like pitch black areas, but do not just make them a "bring your torch" quest. I added a spot penalty to my dark areas, so it is easier to sneak through them and explore. BUT a torch gives you a huge hide penalty, so you have the choice: sneak through it and risk to run into something because you did not see enough, or fight through it with a torch in your hand.
Unfortunately, I forgot to apply the penalty also to the light spell, and the idea of how to solve it for light-emitting items came just to my mind. Nevertheless, you finally have a reason to learn darkvision.

[MasterChanger]

I have no sense of direction,so I don't like mazes! On the general subject of dungeons, I've always hated the NWN2 interiors, especially the cave tilesets. I like part of my gameplay be about discovery,  and those tilesets are just so  damn boring.

The RWS tilesets, on the other hand, are breathtaking. They prove that entering an interior area can be like getting your first glimpse of Moria: awe-inspiring rather than disappointing.

[Dann-J]

Rolo Kipp wrote...

Just be cognizant of the difference between mazes and labyrinths. Mazes are designed to purposefully mislead people and to hide something at the "heart" (which may not be the center). Their use is there for to hide or protect or to possibly test.

A labyrinth is a ceremonial journey with no dead-ends and an foreordained, if sometimes hidden, heart. It is designed like meditation or monk training to channel the actions or thoughts of the traveler.

Are you calling David Bowie a liar then? I suppose you really can't trust goblin kings.

While we're getting pedantic about definitions, there'd be absolutely no point in exploring an abandoned dungeon to look for treasure. A dungeon is an underground prison, and prisoners in general aren't known for their riches. The most you're likely to find in an old dungeon is decomposed straw and dried-out human excrement. Great fertiliser, but lousy treasure.

[Rolo Kipp]

<acting...>

I would never call DB a liar! And you can certainly trust goblin kings. Just not very far. Labyrinth was a labyrinth disguised as a maze and one of my favorites :-) Of course.

And actually, it's the *occupied* dungeons you wouldn't find much in. Abandoned ones make great Evil Overlord HQs... So I've heard, I mean.

My key point above was that without context (or back-story) any design element is rather senseless. And providing that context, some of my richest and most successful campaigns have been layers of design over ancient design. (Now I just have to translate that into NwN :-P Which means more assets to make, systems to code *sigh*.)

To extend the quite pedantic example above, the geography of Amethyst herself is a land composed of rings... because Moonfall, 50k years ago, was exactly that, a rain of moons in the attempted destruction of the world. These elements seem to have very little to do with the current age except flavor, but in truth they are crucial to the player's advancement into epic play.

In Lance's case, that means that sometimes thinking through the world's history can provide the context his mazes (and labyrinths) need. The actual changes to the mod may be subtle to the point no one else can even see them, but they provide a consistent underpinning of design that really does bring things together at levels deeper than fore-brain thought.

<...positively shocked>