1007 réponses à ce sujet

[Sir DeLoria]

Yanpo wrote...

[it, it was the Geth, whom, aside from the damaged group, were never hostile or dangerous, exept when acting in self defense.    

Killing Quarian babies and civilians en mass? Yep, sounds like self defense to me.

[AlanC9]

Shouldn't the quarians get the blame for that? Legion wouldn't have had to upgrade the geth if the quarians hadn't threatened them with extinction.

[KaiserShep]

Yanpo wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

Total extinction of your species as well as all the others you knew makes it the worst. I would say it's an immensely daft decision.

The Geth are also a species, and choosing 'destroy' kills them (if you did not already kill them).  I do not place one species above another, not even my own, and so I did not play favorites.  That is why I chose to cure the Genophage and save the Rachni queen.  Both the Krogan and Rachni are highly potential threats to the rest of the galaxy, including non-sentient life.  I chose to give them a chance anyways.  The Geth also presented a large threat if they ever went power mad, yet I decided that they deserved a chance.  If synthetics were to become the dominant beings, then so be it.  I would fight them to the death if it ever came to it, but until then, they would be given a chance.

To me, It was either all of us, or none of us.  If our cycle couldn't defeat the Reapers together, then so be it.  The next cycle will have to do it (and they did).  I'm just one human. I do not decide for my entire galaxy, and so I will not force synthesis, and I will not force genocide.  I wasn't sent to kill the Geth, nor synthesize the galaxy.  I wast sent to destroy the Reapers, and only the Reapers by using the Crucible.  That plan failed.  If there was one group that did not deserve it, it was the Geth, whom, aside from the damaged group, were never hostile or dangerous, exept when acting in self defense.    

Our mission failed. Unless you chose control and then imagined Shephard doing what he/she would most likely actually do: Help rebuild; dismantle Reapers; re-upload to old (preserved/fixed) body.  True AIs are no different from real Intelligence.  There is no danger of some "directive" or "program" corrupting Shepherd.  If there was, then it wasn't an upload.  It was just an attempted copy and paste of her conciousness that was simulated using exhaustive input/output programming to made it appear as if it was Shepherd.  In which case, her body's demise would not have happened.  If uploaded Shepherd was corruptible that means you played her that way, and so control would still be your "best" choice.   

It's certainly your prerogative to see it as a failure, but as I see it, if the reapers are destroyed, then the mission is accomplished. If a species other than the reapers are eradicated along with them, then it would be a tragic loss, but the mission is fulfilled nonetheless. Whether they deserve it or not is not really my concern at that point, because my primary objective is to eradicate the reapers. If the entirety of a species stands in the way of doing so, then they're going to have to go with them. However, this is where playing favorites comes in, because I would be lying if I claimed to not value certain species over others, namely my own. If it came down to my own kind, then that would be a different story altogether. I find the all-or-none ideology very problematic. If I was dead set on getting absolutely every species out alive, then I would simply pick control, but I saw it as getting as many helping hands as I can to aid in destroying the reapers. Whether you believe you get to decide for the entire galaxy doesn't matter, because all of your choices, even refuse, does exactly that. This is inescapable, and by refusing, you decided that they should all die instead. This is extremely worse than any of the options.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 18 août 2013 - 06:26 .

[Cainhurst Crow]

Necanor wrote...

Yanpo wrote...

[it, it was the Geth, whom, aside from the damaged group, were never hostile or dangerous, exept when acting in self defense.    

Killing Quarian babies and civilians en mass? Yep, sounds like self defense to me.

And eye for an eye, a processor for a processor. Quarians wipe out geth with 99.9% certainty and show no distinction between hostile and non-hostile geth, than the geth take the lessons learned from their extermination campaign and turn it on their exterminators.

I side with neither of them, quarians are as guilty as the geth, and I will either save them both or find a way to kill them both, no sides gonna wins this one if I have any say in it.

[Sir DeLoria]

AlanC9 wrote...

Shouldn't the quarians get the blame for that? Legion wouldn't have had to upgrade the geth if the quarians hadn't threatened them with extinction.

No. Legion wanted the upgrades, Quarian threat or not.

[Sir DeLoria]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Necanor wrote...

Yanpo wrote...
[it, it was the Geth, whom, aside from the damaged group, were never hostile or dangerous, exept when acting in self defense.    

Killing Quarian babies and civilians en mass? Yep, sounds like self defense to me.

And eye for an eye, a processor for a processor. Quarians wipe out geth with 99.9% certainty and show no distinction between hostile and non-hostile geth, than the geth take the lessons learned from their extermination campaign and turn it on their exterminators.

I side with neither of them, quarians are as guilty as the geth, and I will either save them both or find a way to kill them both, no sides gonna wins this one if I have any say in it.

There were no non-hostile Geth, every unit eventually participated in the violence. The same doesn't go for the Quarians at all, only a tiny fraction of the Quarians actually took arms against the Geth.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Necanor wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Necanor wrote...

Yanpo wrote...
[it, it was the Geth, whom, aside from the damaged group, were never hostile or dangerous, exept when acting in self defense.    

Killing Quarian babies and civilians en mass? Yep, sounds like self defense to me.

And eye for an eye, a processor for a processor. Quarians wipe out geth with 99.9% certainty and show no distinction between hostile and non-hostile geth, than the geth take the lessons learned from their extermination campaign and turn it on their exterminators.

I side with neither of them, quarians are as guilty as the geth, and I will either save them both or find a way to kill them both, no sides gonna wins this one if I have any say in it.

There were no non-hostile Geth, every unit eventually participated in the violence. The same doesn't go for the Quarians at all, only a tiny fraction of the Quarians actually took arms against the Geth.

Like I'm sure there were no non-hostile quarians in the battle and they were all just innocent victims, and there were absolutely no quarians brutally murdering surrendering quarians and geth units alike en masse.

Most geth didn't seem to participate in the violence to me, most seemed to surrender and were permenantly deactiated. In fact the catalyst for the geth turning truely aggresive and hostile seems to be when the quarians started murdering other quarians to kill the geth.

I just don't see an arguement for saying the geth are more guilty than the quarians, especially since the quarians were just as indiscriminate in their genocide campaign as the geth were, wiping out all of them without discretion. Of course I view the geth as both a species and alive, and deserving of basic sentient rights, unlike I'm guessing you who views it as little more than scraping junk and deleting an unwanted text file, that's just a guess of course, I could be wrong.

My view is that the morning war massacure on both sides was 300 years ago, and that there's no need for continued aggression. Revenge gets no-one anywhere, it doesn't settle things just makes more groups to carry out a continuos cycle of revenge killing, and it is a roadblock for a better solution. I'm not going to fall into the isreal/palistine trap of supporting one massive turd over the other equally massive turd because one happens to be closer to my physiology than the other.

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 18 août 2013 - 06:38 .

[KaiserShep]

We don't know what percentage of Quarians took up arms against the geth, but we do know that there were at least enough to both engage the geth, and kill or detain their own kind to the point where sympathizers were all but extinguished.

[Sir DeLoria]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

I just don't see an arguement for saying the geth are more guilty than the quarians, especially since the quarians were just as indiscriminate in their genocide campaign as the geth were, wiping out all of them without discretion. Of course I view the geth as both a species and alive, and deserving of basic sentient rights, unlike I'm guessing you who views it as little more than scraping junk and deleting an unwanted text file, that's just a guess of course, I could be wrong.

My view is that the morning war massacure on both sides was 300 years ago, and that there's no need for continued aggression. Revenge gets no-one anywhere, it doesn't settle things just makes more groups to carry out a continuos cycle of revenge killing, and it is a roadblock for a better solution. I'm not going to fall into the isreal/palistine trap of supporting one massive turd over the other equally massive turd because one happens to be closer to my physiology than the other.

I admire your nobility, but I don't share it. Your hypothesis is correct, I don't view the Geth as living beings with basic rights, but more as rogue machines that need to be shut down for everyone's sake. 

Let's not discuss this further, agree to disagree?

[Sir DeLoria]

KaiserShep wrote...

We don't know what percentage of Quarians took up arms against the geth, but we do know that there were at least enough to both engage the geth, and kill or detain their own kind to the point where sympathizers were all but extinguished.

The Quarians are a peaceful society, it is highly unlikely, that anyone but the military took up arms against the Geth. That's one of the reasons, why I find the massacres commited by the Geth to be so unbelievably attrocious.

[Cainhurst Crow]

I can agree to that. To each their own.

[KaiserShep]

Necanor wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

We don't know what percentage of Quarians took up arms against the geth, but we do know that there were at least enough to both engage the geth, and kill or detain their own kind to the point where sympathizers were all but extinguished.

The Quarians are a peaceful society, it is highly unlikely, that anyone but the military took up arms against the Geth. That's one of the reasons, why I find the massacres commited by the Geth to be so unbelievably attrocious.

Quarian society ceased to be peaceful when martial law was declared, and other Quarians were unjustly detained or killed for harboring non-hostile geth units. The real atrocity is turning against their own kind simply to preemptively eradicate an intelligence that merely asked questions regarding its existence.

[Sir DeLoria]

KaiserShep wrote...

Necanor wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...
We don't know what percentage of Quarians took up arms against the geth, but we do know that there were at least enough to both engage the geth, and kill or detain their own kind to the point where sympathizers were all but extinguished.

The Quarians are a peaceful society, it is highly unlikely, that anyone but the military took up arms against the Geth. That's one of the reasons, why I find the massacres commited by the Geth to be so unbelievably attrocious.

Quarian society ceased to be peaceful when martial law was declared, and other Quarians were unjustly detained or killed for harboring non-hostile geth units. The real atrocity is turning against their own kind simply to preemptively eradicate an intelligence that merely asked questions regarding its existence.

Humans have done much, much worse things to each other. Blaming the entire Quarian race for the actions of a few, is like blaming the entire human race for the actions of Stalin, Hi**er, Mao or Pol Pot.

[KaiserShep]

Fault lies squarely with the collective that agreed to take aggressive measures against both the geth and those who sympathized with them. It was this action that nearly ended with their entire race's extinction. In the end, both parties are essentially victims of the past. This was all caused by the monumental failure to find a proper, peaceful resolution to a major issue, and instead imbued other newly sentient intelligences with ideas on violence and extinction. It's a double edged sword. If the geth are considered actual life forms, then it's their creators' fault for teaching them nothing but violence. If they're considered to be nothing more than equipment, then it's their creators' fault for mishandling their interactive hardware so poorly, and the near extinction of the Quarian race would be the biggest industrial accident in the entire galaxy.

[nevar00]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

So Rana Thanoptis did NOT, in fact, turn out to be indoctrinated? And Balak did NOT, in fact, end up hurting other people? And my decision to let the Rachni go did NOT result in them being turned again by the Reapers?


I hate this topic. Sorry Darth, not blaming you, but it's old, old, old.

Yes, No, and No.

Rana Thanoptis entire impact not only happens off screen, but has to be found out only through reading your email. Harldy any impact there.

You truly could say that about just about every "negative" impact from both paragon and renegade decisions.  Unless your actions result in a dead teammate there aren't too many consequences for your actions.  If you aren't counting those emails.

[AlanC9]

Necanor wrote...

The Quarians are a peaceful society, it is highly unlikely, that anyone but the military took up arms against the Geth. That's one of the reasons, why I find the massacres commited by the Geth to be so unbelievably attrocious.

Something I don't follow here. If you really think that

 I don't view the Geth as living beings with basic rights, but more as rogue machines that need to be shut down for everyone's sake.

.. then how can anything they do be atrocious?

And if the quarians can treat the geth as having no rights, why should the geth treat the quarians as having rights?

Put another way, why do quarians, or anybody else, have rights in the first place?

Modifié par AlanC9, 18 août 2013 - 08:45 .

[CronoDragoon]

If we're going to talk about quarians vs. geth, could we at least do it within the context of the OP?

[silverexile17s]

Xilizhra wrote...

The above view on Paragons should be especaly true since most of the time, we aren't dealing with other humans. Mordin Solus gives exposition on this during his loyalty mission in ME2 -- expecting human nature-based responces from aliens with completely different cultural and sociatal backgrounds, like the Krogan, or Turians, or Asari isn't always a good ideal, as cultural misconceptions can potentally cause a massive backfire. You need to apeal to their different cultures and remember that human nature isn't always translated exactally the same between species, as some evolved to be more strict (turian), leaniant (asari), logical (salarian), or selfish (krogan) then the avarage human. A balance of paragon and renagade is needed to either repel, stand firm or mituagte the emotional factors of each individual race.

They can adapt, or at least Paragon does. A Paragon response to a despondent krogan is basically insulting him until he's angry enough to prove you wrong.

Wrong. ALL can adapt. A Paragon being too nice won't gain a krogan's respect -- a firm headbut on the other hand will. You are what one calls a classic "meta-paragon" player that spams the blue options. You want a krogan's respect, respond in a way he understands.

[silverexile17s]

Xilizhra wrote...

David7204 wrote...

What inconsistencies are we talking about?

I'm not really sure, as I've only played Paragon, which is perfectly consistent, but apparently there are issues with Renegade.

Wrong. There are inconsistancies in both paths.

[Podge 90]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Necanor wrote...

Yanpo wrote...

[it, it was the Geth, whom, aside from the damaged group, were never hostile or dangerous, exept when acting in self defense.    

Killing Quarian babies and civilians en mass? Yep, sounds like self defense to me.

And eye for an eye, a processor for a processor. Quarians wipe out geth with 99.9% certainty and show no distinction between hostile and non-hostile geth, than the geth take the lessons learned from their extermination campaign and turn it on their exterminators.

I side with neither of them, quarians are as guilty as the geth, and I will either save them both or find a way to kill them both, no sides gonna wins this one if I have any say in it.

I felt the same...but then the Quarian admirals fired upon the Geth dreadnought with Shepard still on it.  Then Shepard got angry.

Socking Gerrel in the bread basket was so sweet.  It only needed Shepard petting Legion's head like a lap-cat to make the scene perfect.

Modifié par Podge 90, 19 août 2013 - 08:52 .

[RatThing]

Podge 90 wrote...

I felt the same...but then the Quarian admirals fired upon the Geth dreadnought with Shepard still on it.  Then Shepard got angry.

Socking Gerrel in the bread basket was so sweet.  It only needed Shepard petting Legion's head like a lap-cat to make the scene perfect.

Well the writer needed the war supporter to be dislikable to make you join their (the writers) cause. Notice how Zaal'Koris became a hero while Gerrel and Xen were depicted as total ****s? And they did this with the Salarian Dalatrass as well. It's the oldest and cheapest writer trick to get you on their side. They might have given you choises but they really don`t like you to make use of them. The user StreetMagic was right. Bioware tries to teach the player some crappy moral lessons here .

However my (more) paragon Shepard knows he still needs help from that Admiral. And my (more) renegade Shepard is no hypocrite. She is the Butcher of Torfan after all, she once did something similar. So they restrain themselves here.

Modifié par RatThing, 19 août 2013 - 10:50 .

[Podge 90]

RatThing wrote...

Podge 90 wrote...

I felt the same...but then the Quarian admirals fired upon the Geth dreadnought with Shepard still on it.  Then Shepard got angry.

Socking Gerrel in the bread basket was so sweet.  It only needed Shepard petting Legion's head like a lap-cat to make the scene perfect.

Well the writer needed the war supporter to be dislikable to make you join their cause. Notice how Zaal'Koris became a hero while Gerrel and Xen were depicted as total ****s? And they did this with the Salarian Dalatrass as well. It's the oldest and cheapest writer trick to get you on their side. They might have given you choises but they really don`t like you to make use of them. The user StreetMagic was right. Bioware tries to teach the player some crappy moral lessons here .

However my (more) paragon Shepard knows he still needs help from that Admiral. And my (more) renegade Shepard is no hypocrite. She is the Butcher of Torfan after all, she once did something similar. So they restrain themselves here.

Yeah, Gerrel was one of the most level-headed and 'likeable' Admirals in ME2, but became a total zealot in ME3.  It wasn't necessary at all, and the Geth/Quarian topic is a fantastically 'grey' area in the Mass Effect universe, it didn't need any black and white'ing of characters. ME2 laid out the facts, from both sides, then left it up to the player to make a judgement.

However in ME3, the quarian Admiralty completely lose sight of the bigger picture, i.e. the galactic-wide Reaper invasion, and no Shepard of mine will forgive them for that (paticularly after risking the galaxy's only hope by ordering the fleets to shoot at the dreadnought) .  I'm not punishing the Quarians, I'm taking out my frustration with the writers <_<

With regards to the Dalatrass, they tried the same, but I still sided with her.  It annoys me you can't do anything but antagonise her at the Normandy summit (yay for character streamlining), meanwhile Wrex/Wreav is on the other side of the table spouting about getting the Krogan back to a point to make the galaxy afraid of them again.