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[RatThing]

Podge 90 wrote...

RatThing wrote...

Podge 90 wrote...

I felt the same...but then the Quarian admirals fired upon the Geth dreadnought with Shepard still on it.  Then Shepard got angry.

Socking Gerrel in the bread basket was so sweet.  It only needed Shepard petting Legion's head like a lap-cat to make the scene perfect.

Well the writer needed the war supporter to be dislikable to make you join their cause. Notice how Zaal'Koris became a hero while Gerrel and Xen were depicted as total ****s? And they did this with the Salarian Dalatrass as well. It's the oldest and cheapest writer trick to get you on their side. They might have given you choises but they really don`t like you to make use of them. The user StreetMagic was right. Bioware tries to teach the player some crappy moral lessons here .

However my (more) paragon Shepard knows he still needs help from that Admiral. And my (more) renegade Shepard is no hypocrite. She is the Butcher of Torfan after all, she once did something similar. So they restrain themselves here.

Yeah, Gerrel was one of the most level-headed and 'likeable' Admirals in ME2, but became a total zealot in ME3.  It wasn't necessary at all, and the Geth/Quarian topic is a fantastically 'grey' area in the Mass Effect universe, it didn't need any black and white'ing of characters. ME2 laid out the facts, from both sides, then left it up to the player to make a judgement.

However in ME3, the quarian Admiralty completely lose sight of the bigger picture, i.e. the galactic-wide Reaper invasion, and no Shepard of mine will forgive them for that (paticularly after risking the galaxy's only hope by ordering the fleets to shoot at the dreadnought) .  I'm not punishing the Quarians, I'm taking out my frustration with the writers <_<

With regards to the Dalatrass, they tried the same, but I still sided with her.  It annoys me you can't do anything but antagonise her at the Normandy summit (yay for character streamlining), meanwhile Wrex/Wreav is on the other side of the table spouting about getting the Krogan back to a point to make the galaxy afraid of them again.

Exactly. And this is the reason why playing renegade in ME3 is partly frustrating and inconsistent without head canon. While I don`t really like the genophage, you get lots of occasions where your Shepard can disagree with Salarians and confront them about it. Wouldn't it be nice to have at least one opportunity (in the whole damn trilogy) to confront a Krogan (Wrex, Wreav whoever) with the Krogan Rebellions? Or maybe at least point out Wrex's double standard when he wants the Rachni exterminated? It really looks like the writer can`t see the player to choose the renegade path, so they don`t even give them appropriate dialogue options (or crappy ones). And at the end when you got to make the ultimate decision, the renegade option seems to be totally out of place.      

[Xilizhra]

Wrong. ALL can adapt. A Paragon being too nice won't gain a krogan's respect -- a firm headbut on the other hand will. You are what one calls a classic "meta-paragon" player that spams the blue options. You want a krogan's respect, respond in a way he understands.

The blue options do gain krogan respect, so evidently that works fine. They do have paraphrases I can read, you know.

Well the writer needed the war supporter to be dislikable to make you join their (the writers) cause. Notice how Zaal'Koris became a hero while Gerrel and Xen were depicted as total ****s? And they did this with the Salarian Dalatrass as well. It's the oldest and cheapest writer trick to get you on their side. They might have given you choises but they really don`t like you to make use of them. The user StreetMagic was right. Bioware tries to teach the player some crappy moral lessons here

But that depiction was completely true in ME2, the only difference was circumstance (Koris being opposed to someone on your squad, Gerrel being in her favor, Xen being the exact same in both games; in fact, she seems somewhat more mellow in ME3).

[The Heretic of Time]

David7204 wrote...

If heroism is meaningful, then 'good' choices logically need to lead to the best outcome.

If good storytelling is meaningful, then 'good'  choices logically shouldn't always lead ot the best outcome.


Also, the Paragon choices aren't always the most heroic choices. For example; keeping the collector base is more heroic than destroying the collector base. Keeping the base is a courageous choice (heroism), while destroying the base is just Shepard being a stubborn ****** who lets fear compromise his better judgement.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 19 août 2013 - 01:35 .

[Ravensword]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

David7204 wrote...

If heroism is meaningful, then 'good' choices logically need to lead to the best outcome.

If good storytelling is meaningful, then 'good'  choices logically shouldn't always lead ot the best outcome.


Also, the Paragon choices aren't always the most heroic choices. For example; keeping the collector base is more heroic than destroying the collector base. Keeping the base is a courageous choice (heroism), while destroying the base is just Shepard being a stubborn ****** who lets fear compromise his better judgement.

Don't forget about withholding information about a war crime during Tali's trial, which for some reason is a Paragon decision.

[Xilizhra]

Ravensword wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

David7204 wrote...

If heroism is meaningful, then 'good' choices logically need to lead to the best outcome.

If good storytelling is meaningful, then 'good'  choices logically shouldn't always lead ot the best outcome.


Also, the Paragon choices aren't always the most heroic choices. For example; keeping the collector base is more heroic than destroying the collector base. Keeping the base is a courageous choice (heroism), while destroying the base is just Shepard being a stubborn ****** who lets fear compromise his better judgement.

Don't forget about withholding information about a war crime during Tali's trial, which for some reason is a Paragon decision.

Shepard is Tali's legal counsel, and I'm pretty sure you're not supposed to plead in a manner that the client does not want you to plead. And for the persuasion options, you accurately expose the corruption within the current court, which is still pretty good.

I won't argue about the base, although I don't think that Shepard is necessarily dumb for destroying it (as Cerberus did turn out to be a future threat).

Modifié par Xilizhra, 19 août 2013 - 01:53 .

[Fixers0]

Xilizhra wrote...
Shepard is Tali's legal counsel, and I'm pretty sure you're not supposed to plead in a manner that the client does not want you to plead. And for the persuasion options, you accurately expose the corruption within the current court, which is still pretty good.

It still is highly questionable  that putting the welfare of a single person pyschological state before truth and justice is counting as a paragon choice.

[Xilizhra]

Fixers0 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Shepard is Tali's legal counsel, and I'm pretty sure you're not supposed to plead in a manner that the client does not want you to plead. And for the persuasion options, you accurately expose the corruption within the current court, which is still pretty good.

It still is highly questionable  that putting the welfare of a single person pyschological state before truth and justice is counting as a paragon choice.

Well, really, a huge part of your job involves not screwing with your client; the justice system sort of requires that. In any case, the whole point of going on these missions to begin with is to bolster their psychological states so they don't screw up beyond the Omega-4 relay.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 19 août 2013 - 01:58 .

[Fixers0]

Xilizhra wrote...
Well, really, a huge part of your job involves not screwing with your client; the justice system sort of requires that. In any case, the whole point of going on these missions to begin with is to bolster their psychological states so they don't screw up beyond the Omega-4 relay.

I didn't realise that the prerequisite of dealing with one's daddy issues was to be paragon. in other words: being paragon by itself shouldn't gain loyalty. Paragon and renegade are not "good" and "bad" choices, they're idealogical grounds for reasoning and so far the Paragon morality has been about promoting justice and truth, which is inconsistant in at with the choices of Tali's trial.

[Xilizhra]

Fixers0 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Well, really, a huge part of your job involves not screwing with your client; the justice system sort of requires that. In any case, the whole point of going on these missions to begin with is to bolster their psychological states so they don't screw up beyond the Omega-4 relay.

I didn't realise that the prerequisite of dealing with one's daddy issues was to be paragon. in other words: being paragon by itself shouldn't gain loyalty. Paragon and renegade are not "good" and "bad" choices, they're idealogical grounds for reasoning and so far the Paragon morality has been about promoting justice and truth, which is inconsistant in at with the choices of Tali's trial.

Well, that's why you get an Intimidate option to get Tali off as well as a Charm one. Also, the Paragon choice involves playing by as many rules as possible, which is consistent with the choices at Tali's trial; the Renegade action is a sleazy and underhanded one to bring about some sort of greater good that never really materializes (well, the one that isn't Intimidate; that one works out better). However, you don't have to be Paragon; you can also do the neutral option of rallying the crowd provided youkept it intact.

And Paragon doesn't automatically get you loyalty; the only way to retain Zaeed's as a Paragon is Charm, similar to how doing so with Tali as Renegade requires Intimidate. As far as I know, the balance is reasonable.

[Fixers0]

Xilizhra wrote...
Well, that's why you get an Intimidate option to get Tali off as well as a Charm one. Also, the Paragon choice involves playing by as many rules as possible, which is consistent with the choices at Tali's trial; the Renegade action is a sleazy and underhanded one to bring about some sort of greater good that never really materializes (well, the one that isn't Intimidate; that one works out better). However, you don't have to be Paragon; you can also do the neutral option of rallying the crowd provided youkept it intact.

Indeed, Being paragon means adhearinging to justice, truth and due process in the best manner possible, which is presenting the evidence, this is not consistant with how  the choices portrayed.

Xilizhra wrote...
And Paragon doesn't automatically get you loyalty; the only way to retain Zaeed's as a Paragon is Charm, similar to how doing so with Tali as Renegade requires Intimidate. As far as I know, the balance is reasonable.

Yet you implied in an earlier post that witholding the evidence is paragon because that would secure Tali's loyalty, perhaps you should make up your mind litte more.

Modifié par Fixers0, 19 août 2013 - 02:31 .

[Xilizhra]

Indeed, Being paragon means adhearinging to justice and due process in the best manner possible, which is presenting the evidence, this is not consistant with the choices provided.

Again, this entails not screwing over your client.

Yet you implied in an earlier post that witholding the evidence is paragon because that would secure Tali's loyalty, perhaps you should make up your mind litte more.

No, that was to counter your claim that psychological fortitude was irrelevant.

[Fixers0]

Xilizhra wrote...
Again, this entails not screwing over your client.

It does however take preference in promoting truth and justice over the desires of the invidual.

Xilizhra wrote...
No, that was to counter your claim that psychological fortitude was irrelevant.

I never did so, I said that being paragon means that justice and truth take prefence over the pyschological state of one person.

Modifié par Fixers0, 19 août 2013 - 02:37 .

[Xilizhra]

It does however take preference in promoting truth and justice over the desires of the invidual.

In this case, justice and individual desires are the same, given your position at the time of the decision.

Why do you even care? You never struck me as a huge Paragon choice maker.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 19 août 2013 - 02:39 .

[Fixers0]

Xilizhra wrote...
In this case, justice and individual desires are the same, given your position at the time of the decision.

Justice is in promoting truth and adhearing to due process, ones's desire to keep the truth from public for personal well beign is not.

Xilizhra wrote...
Why do you even care? You never struck me as a huge Paragon choice maker.

I care about good writing, that and usally destroy the Collector base. which gave me more proof on how much the former is lacking.

[Xilizhra]

Justice is in promoting truth and adhearing to due process, ones's desire to keep the truth from public for personal well beign is not.

Er... due process is, again, not pleading in a way that your client does not want you to plead.

[Xilizhra]

StreetMagic wrote...

I don't see her as my "client". When you're told you have to defend her, you have an option to tell her you're honored. Or that it's a horrible idea. I pick the latter.

I also hate the whole quest.. I just want to get it over with. Everything about it is tedious. The Admirals have too much dialogue -- kind of like VIs you talk in ME1. The Geth take a long time to go down. I'm not happy to be there. More than likely I'd resent the whole thing, and would screw over Tali on purpose by the time it's over with.

Best to not even do the quest actually. Tali can still survive the suicide mission, and isn't all that different in the next game.

Personally, I'm honored, and will stick to my duty.

[Fixers0]

Xilizhra wrote...
Er... due process is, again, not pleading in a way that your client does not want you to plead.

Did I ever had a client? I just shoot things...But seriously the well being of the invdiual is irelevant if it means witholding the truth.

[Fixers0]

Xilizhra wrote...
Personally, I'm honored, and will stick to my duty.

Haven't played Mass Effect 2 did you, considering you were working for terrorists the whole game.

Modifié par Fixers0, 19 août 2013 - 02:48 .

[Xilizhra]

Fixers0 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Er... due process is, again, not pleading in a way that your client does not want you to plead.

Did I ever had a client? I just shoot things...But seriously the well being of the invdiual is irelevant if it means witholding the truth.

Yes, Tali; there's a whole conversation about that. And what you've done is holding an abstract principle as being more important than both the well-being of actual people and the rules in place to protect them, which is classic Renegade.

Haven't played Mass Effect 2 did you, considering you were working for terrorists the whole period.

Protection of the galaxy; it's a regrettable sacrifice but a tolerable one.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 19 août 2013 - 02:49 .

[Fixers0]

Xilizhra wrote...

Yes, Tali; there's a whole conversation about that. And what you've done is holding an abstract principle as being more important than both the well-being of actual people and the rules in place to protect them, which is classic Renegade.

Actually, taking the well-being of the invidual as more important then promoting truth and justice is classic renegade.

[Fixers0]

Xilizhra wrote...
Protection of the galaxy; it's a regrettable sacrifice but a tolerable one.

Not much about duty now,  hey.

[Xilizhra]

Fixers0 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Yes, Tali; there's a whole conversation about that. And what you've done is holding an abstract principle as being more important than both the well-being of actual people and the rules in place to protect them, which is classic Renegade.

Actually, taking the well-being of the invidual as more important then promoting truth and justice is classic renegade.

Aside from your constant misunderstandings of justice, when has this ever been the case in the series?

[Fixers0]

Xilizhra wrote...
Aside from your constant misunderstandings of justice, when has this ever been the case in the series?

Yes. perhaps you should play the first game for a change.